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OfflineTonearm
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Registered: 02/27/03
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Life after physical death
    #2199764 - 12/24/03 03:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm sure there have been a lot of other threads about this, so I hope you don't mind another.

I do generally subscribe to the 8-circuit model of consciousness originally proposed by Timothy Leary. Here's a link to a rundown in case you're unfamiliar:

http://www.deoxy.org/8circuit.htm

I've been reading Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising which is based on the 8-circuit model. The book is great and (believe it or not) it has actually expanded my consciousness. I do have a couple of greivances though, and that brings me to my point. RAW seems to think any kind of life after death is ridiculous. He thinks mankind should be and is moving toward immortality in this physical world. That hit me all wrong from the beginning, and last night (stoned, neurosomatic) I figured out why.

In the 8-circuit model (which makes a huge amount of sense to me), the last four circuits of consciousness are in the right side of the brain and are the most advanced/evolved/futuristic. Most people hardly use them, and they are turned on by things like psychedelics, meditation, yoga, etc. I read a lot about mystical subjects like Zen Buddhism as I went through my seeking. It turns out what I was looking for was the fifth circuit inside my own head, but that's another story. A common theme among all the mystical subjects I studied was life everlasting. That we don't just disappear when we die. This is consistent throughout all forms of mysticism I know. This also "feels" true to me (not in a rational third circuit way), especially when I'm experiencing right brain activity (after meditating, tripping, etc.). In Zen, it's said that when you have satori (first experience of enlightenment aka higher brain circuit activity), you no longer have any fear of death because you know you will go on forever. RAW cites different types of religious experience as examples of higher (5-8) brain circuit activity. OK, to my point: If our higher brain circuits indicate to us that there will be life everlasting, who are we to disagree? It seems to me that we're stuck in the antiquated circuits if we do.


--------------------
My Favorite Link:
http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2199802 - 12/24/03 03:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmmm...

I definetly don't believe in any kind of immortal soul. What I mean by that is that I don't think that "I" will die and float out of my body and consult people in the spirit realm and then choose what lessons I want to learn in my next life and reincarnate among people who will help me grow. I also don't believe in heaven/hell.

One thing I find confusing about lots of the reincarnation believers (I'd love it if someone could clear this up for me) is this:

On one hand spiritual leaders are telling us that the self is an illusion, that we are all one. "We" as in the entire universe. This makes perfect sense, but where I'm confused is how, then, if we have no self or individuality without the ego, then at the time of death when we lose our ego, how is it that we remain an autonomous soul-unit who reincarnates? Seems to me that the first point is for people who want to grow by coming to terms with true death, and the second point, about our immortal soul reincarnating is for people who want to be consoled that their pet dog never truly died.

Here's a test you can run on yourself. Try this process:

First, do you believe that you have a soul that will reincarnate? If yes, then don't you think it's unfair that certain stone-age isolated tribes will never know about reincarnation? I mean, without knowing about reincarnation, then your soul will never grow through experience, and you'll never become truly enlightened, correct? Do you believe this last statement is incorrect? If so, that means that you don't need a belief in reincarnation in order to reincarnate and have your soul grow. So I wonder why bother believing in something that cannot at all be proved when you don't HAVE to? Let me guess.. as a consolation to your ego that you will never die.

Maybe you need an answer to "why are we here?" The answer is "to reincarnate and grow until we can rise out of this dimension (whatever you call it)." But that's no answer! Not even close. The next question is why do we need to grow and ascend this material realm?

I reccomend anybody who wants to honestly grow should scrap any of their beliefs that they will continue after death into anything you could call an afterlife. Plan for the worst. Come to terms with how too soon you are going to evaporate and become scattered across the universe. Someone posted a quote here before "You didn't care that you didn't exist before you were born, why should you care that after death you won't exist?"


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2199817 - 12/24/03 03:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Mixomatosis -

Thanks for your reply. You draw a useful line by separating your ego and your collective consciousness (circuits 2 and 6). It's the collective consciousness I believe will go on, simply because our higher circuits seem to say so.


--------------------
My Favorite Link:
http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2199823 - 12/24/03 03:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

On second thought, I'm not so sure the collective consciousness is restricted to the 6th circuit. I think it's more like 5-8.


--------------------
My Favorite Link:
http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm


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OfflineDailyPot
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2201472 - 12/26/03 01:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Very very interesting read. I dont think its complete but I think its very good. I dont have anything to add and I haven't slept in a very long time heh. I'll have to make a more intelli gent reply later.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2201693 - 12/26/03 05:58 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think that as we learn more and more about DNA, chemistry, and physics in general, we will find out some pretty amazing shit that may explain what "god" or "life" or "the soul" or "life energy" really is.

What's cool to me is that I believe "there is a perfectly good explanation for all of this," heh and while our cortexes may not be able to figure it all out, we're going to realize a whole lot more than we realize NOW is possible to realize.

While this doesn't answer your question, I just wanted to say that I think we'll be able to figure out way more about our dna, our brains, and how they're connected to this external world, which will bring us closer to this knowledge.

wow I'm pretty stoned! ha what a bunch of crap that was! ahh well I'll post it anyway :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinepsychopsilocyber
[_381_] gnemo

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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2202406 - 12/26/03 05:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You cannot escape death, therefore you cannot escape birth. I think you could get away with calling your whole life birth -"He who's not busy being born is busy dieing," says Bob Dylan

I mean birth is just a word that means coming into this world, well aren't you technically already in this world before you're born? Is the sperm not alive already? When was the sperm born, isn't that the real birth-date? I think of the word birth as only the birth of my ego, same with death.

Accept when you hear of people in hospitals that die, and then were shocked back into living, is that considered re-birth? Rebirth of the ego maybe, but if you dont call that re-birth than you're also saying that in order to die you dont have to be born - if you've died before death and been born before being re-born then what's so hard to believe about reincarnation or an afterlife of some-sort? Maybe not everyone has experienced this being dead/re-born thing during life, well what about sleep? I'd call that ego-death. But isnt sleep controled by chemicals in your body, like the ones people use to over-look such death/rebirth experiences?

Everything we know of we call matter, which is just particles called quarks which make up more particles that make up atoms. But isnt matter just a vibration in the first place? Almost like the frequency of a DMT trip right before you leave your ego, sometimes the only reason you know you've gone is because you came back. Makes me wonder if Dennis McKenna was on to something with his electron spin resonance shpiel.

"You cannot describe a person without also describing his surroundings," Allen Watts. So if birth is really just the birth of the ego then the surroundings are what shape the ego.

My definition of memory is your ability so see possibilities, the possibilities are easy to see when they've already happened. Anyone have a better explaination for memory I'd love to hear it. So you can remember into the future, but if it hasn't happened it probably won't(joking) So what is memory without the ego? Didn't the Buddha become the Buddha when he got a memory of all his past lives? Think he was attached to his ego when that happened?(if that happened for you skeptics)

What I'm saying is if you want to talk about death you have to consider the environment in which we talk about death, the environment being the people in the discussion and the definitions of the words used to talk about it.


--------------------
Eco friendly extraction is the only way to go for Dmt, mescaline, and iboga


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: DailyPot]
    #2202507 - 12/26/03 06:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Very very interesting read. I dont think its complete but I think its very good. I dont have anything to add and I haven't slept in a very long time heh. I'll have to make a more intelli gent reply later.




Thanks for your reply, and I definitely don't think it's complete either. I'd love to get to work on it myself....


--------------------
My Favorite Link:
http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Strumpling]
    #2202515 - 12/26/03 07:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I think that as we learn more and more about DNA, chemistry, and physics in general, we will find out some pretty amazing shit that may explain what "god" or "life" or "the soul" or "life energy" really is.

What's cool to me is that I believe "there is a perfectly good explanation for all of this," heh and while our cortexes may not be able to figure it all out, we're going to realize a whole lot more than we realize NOW is possible to realize.

While this doesn't answer your question, I just wanted to say that I think we'll be able to figure out way more about our dna, our brains, and how they're connected to this external world, which will bring us closer to this knowledge.



I couldn't agree more.

Quote:

what a bunch of crap that was!



I couldn't disagree more!

edit: made this more clever


Edited by Tonearm (12/26/03 07:03 PM)


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: psychopsilocyber]
    #2202556 - 12/26/03 07:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You cannot escape death




This hinges on the definitions of "you" and "death". If, by "you", you mean the ego death of Myfirstname Mlastname, then I have to agree. I don't think the ego part of me will escape death. With even a slightly altered definition of those two words, I have a problem with the statement.

Quote:

I think you could get away with calling your whole life birth




Semantic games thus ensued. Also, I think you should ask yourself why you are asking the questions you are. I'd really like to know.

Quote:

What I'm saying is if you want to talk about death you have to consider the environment in which we talk about death, the environment being the people in the discussion and the definitions of the words used to talk about it.




I agree. I'd say that's synonymous with considering the 3rd circuit semantic models we use for communication and the 1-8 (but especially 1-4) circuit-makeup of the other communicators in order to precipitate (perfect word!) effective communication.


--------------------
My Favorite Link:
http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm


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Offlinepsychopsilocyber
[_381_] gnemo

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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2202616 - 12/26/03 08:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

>Also, I think you should ask yourself why you are asking the questions you are. I'd really like to know.

Well usually I ask the question so I can answer it myself, so I can keep the paragraph flowing I guess. Is it questionable? no, don't ask questions. See what I mean, it's even kinda funny too if you're me.


--------------------
Eco friendly extraction is the only way to go for Dmt, mescaline, and iboga


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: psychopsilocyber]
    #2202658 - 12/26/03 08:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Well usually I ask the question so I can answer it myself, so I can keep the paragraph flowing I guess. Is it questionable? no, don't ask questions. See what I mean, it's even kinda funny too if you're me.



OK, I initially mis-identified the purpose of their inclusion then.

Was your last paragraph a sufficient conclusion of your points? I don't want to skip anything you think merits discussion.

edit: clarification


--------------------
My Favorite Link:
http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm


Edited by Tonearm (12/26/03 08:33 PM)


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Offlinepsychopsilocyber
[_381_] gnemo

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Re: Life after physical death [Re: Tonearm]
    #2202666 - 12/26/03 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The more you question, the less you know.


--------------------
Eco friendly extraction is the only way to go for Dmt, mescaline, and iboga


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Life after physical death [Re: psychopsilocyber]
    #2203072 - 12/27/03 01:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

no. The more you drive, the less you know (repo man)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Loc: heart cave
Re: Life after physical death [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2203183 - 12/27/03 02:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

We plants are happy plants.


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Amazon Shop for: Terrence McKenna

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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