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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19580306 -

For example...


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580310 -

QM. An attempt at logically describing randomness.

It would be similar in comparison to using randomness to describe logic.

How would that work?

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19580329 -

So we can discard all QM equations and then our cell phones, GPS and computers will stop working and we cannot land a rover on Mars...


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580363 -

You're talking objectively still, and imposing the rules of objectivity on experience.

QM doesn't make sense logically because it wasn't written based on logic, it was forged in the fires of chaos.

Obviously it works and exists, that is beside the point.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580372 -

i don't know what you mean by the term skeptic as you seem to use it for different points

but what is sure, is that any existing fact is only absolutely
relative do not exist, that is why freedom is a right out of existence facts and realities

so sciences are never to skepticism but all to business and interests means in knowing some about everything

when any existing matter is only absolutely then it is normal to need some solid evidence about something before selling it and expect to get some outcomes out of that business

and in my understanding of the term skeptic which is different then yours, being that is what on the contrary never care about proofs

the skeptic to me, is who in seeing facts feel the urge to say something else to disapprove it .. it is like a negative nature about everything and anyone .. where true conscious free means would always approve everything objectively present as being something else right .. so cant be skeptic about anything else

in truth, being skeptic to me, is from the abusive will in meaning freedom being right .. so what keep rejecting all as if it could be right since freedom from everything is right

so I guess here again, you obviously invent the op according to some ends you have in mind and enjoy the sense of fooling everyone else

Edited by absols (02/17/14 03:06 PM)

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: absols]
    #19580400 -

Only here and in PSP do posters struggle with ordinary definitions. To be skeptical means to not accept an assertion without facts.

100% of religion and mysticism is bare assertion.


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580413 -

Do you disagree that experience is more factual than what others say or claim of it?

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19580440 -

Experience and conclusion are often linked together, but they are not.

10,000 people saws The Phoenix Lights and most concluded it was something alien. Did all 10,000 people see something (subjective experience)? Yes. Were those that concluded it was alien correct? No, they were all wrong.


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580454 -

The experience is not what is remembered or concluded about the experience.

It exists without either of them.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19580463 -

I am unable to follow most of your posts. :ohwell:


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: teknix]
    #19580464 -

See what happens when you try to objectify experience? It forgoes being experience, and becomes a description, or idea/thought about it. Could you ever truly communicate an experience using logical means?

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580468 -

.


a person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions.

synonyms: cynic, pessimist, prophet of doom;

"sceptics said the marriage wouldn't last"


2. Philosophy
an ancient or modern philosopher who denies the possibility of knowledge, or even rational belief, in some sphere

this is the definition of google .. which shows clearly how you invent the means of common words

skepticism is never to any fact .. on the contrary it is a free will to reject facts by nature

actually it seems to me that skeptic word to you is a matter of faith

which then says how you cant mean anything about nonbelievers because you cant think out of being believer yourself

that is surely why you mean being skeptic in strange way .. as if it is another wisdom thing ..

you definitely enjoy fooling everyone else

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580501 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I am unable to follow most of your posts. :ohwell:


At least you're attempting to try, lol.

:lol:

:heart:

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580511 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
ivander said:
I dont really care if you feel better when you stomp someone down. Gotta feed the ego right?


No one was 'stomped down' but only an ego can take offense.

The double-slit experiment is not a license to believe in mysticism. Looking at an object does not change it. Measuring it (or interfering) does. Observing in physics doe not mean what most people think it means.

It is like this. Measure the temperature of a body of water with a standard thermometer without changing the temperature of the body of water. It cannot be done.


Oh, cmon... part 5 of same subject and still no results? Talk to me about ego some more... Beside that's why I said I dont really care.

Of course its not license to believe in mysticism, as much as the fact that you still don't have a million dollar challenge winner yet is license to say that paranormal stuff is ultimately not real.

Sure, it does not change the object, but it affects what observer(scientist) believe is fact. Simple observer will not say:
temp of thermometer + temp of water = new temp of water(result)

he will just say temp of water is.. (result)

That is why you cant really measure unmeasurable(all the S&M) stuff in objective and scientific manner and with scientific instruments, to prove them wrong, because that approach does not really cover all the angles and is not really fit to be really 'objective'..
Im not sure nor I care what you want to get, or if this is just pure boredom. But if you believe that this or part 6 will change anything as you prefer, carry on by all means..

:leaving:


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: ivander]
    #19580569 -

Quote:
Talk to me about ego some more


If you can remember, it was you to brought up ego (and not relevant to anything being discussed) and I made a true statement in that regard. This sort of distraction usually tells me the poster came empty-handed.

Quote:
as much as the fact that you still don't have a million dollar challenge winner yet is license to say that paranormal stuff is ultimately not real.


The correct conclusion is that no one to date has demonstrated such powers and are unlikely to do so in the future. Is this not accurate?

Lack of evidence hardly gives credence to such claims, now does it?

Quote:
Sure, it does not change the object, but it affects what observer(scientist) believe is fact. Simple observer will not say:
temp of thermometer + temp of water = new temp of water(result)

he will just say temp of water is.. (result)



They may say that, but it will not be precise. Putting a tiny mercury thermometer in a pot of boiling water will have minimal effect, we both agree to that. But now put that same thermometer in a thimbleful of boiling water and the effect will be huge. Now attempt to use that same thermometer to measure the temperature of a single molecule of water and the 'observing' will certainly change the data - and yet nothing mysterious has taken place.


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: ivander]
    #19580592 -

Actually trying (looking/experiencing) requires a different perspective, or mechanism even. Just looking without having any thought about what is seen, clearing awareness to just experience directly. Instead of using your thoughts and mind to rationalize, try using an experience to rationalize.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580611 -

That because you expect me to prove you wrong and me right. Im not playing your game here... And so, take that into consideration when you reread my last post. Im not saying Jesus can turn water to wine, but you really cant say he couldn't.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: ivander]
    #19580627 -

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I can say that there is zero evidence that Jesus turned water into wine. See if you can twist that one more time.

Nothing quite like intellectual dishonesty.


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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19580645 -

There is literary evidence which is as good as history of that sort gets :shrug:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Skeptics vs. Believers - Part V [Re: Kickle]
    #19580665 -

And literary 'evidence' that Hobbits once walked the earth. So what?

Words on paper have no direct relationship to truth.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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