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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: JustinTime]
    #14070394 -

JustinTime said:
I would just like to hear your materialist explanation of the double slit experiment.

Are you aware that the topic of this thread is not the materialist explanation of the double-slit experiment?


JustinTime said:
And yeah, you haven't proved anything.

That's not true, I've proved that the concept of burden of proof is much too complicated for some to be able to comprehend. :ass::flowstone:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
    #14070881 -

Quote:
During the portion of the video where it mentioned qualia, it merely repeats that perceptions themselves cannot be physical; no evidence was provided to back up this assertion. If you think the video backed up this assertion, please show me exactly where it did. I mean, it shouldn't be so hard, since you're so "educated", right?




This is not something to be proven it is something that is to be grasped. The video explains how perceptions cannot be physical with a brief analysis of the colour red and the fact it exists yet is not a substance. You fail to grasp this and that is why all the other arguments seem baseless.

The fact that perception is not physical is why materialists say consciousness "emerges" from the brain and it is the very reason why dualism and idealism exist as schools of thought.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: soldatheero]
    #14073682 -

soldatheero said:
Quote:
During the portion of the video where it mentioned qualia, it merely repeats that perceptions themselves cannot be physical; no evidence was provided to back up this assertion. If you think the video backed up this assertion, please show me exactly where it did. I mean, it shouldn't be so hard, since you're so "educated", right?




This is not something to be proven it is something that is to be grasped.

Like the FSM?


soldatheero said:
The video explains how perceptions cannot be physical with a brief analysis of the colour red and the fact it exists yet is not a substance.

:rofl2:, it explains that perceptions cannot be physical by stating that red (a perception) exists yet is not a substance (i.e. is not physical)? Do you really think that the statement "Red exists yet is not a substance." proves that perceptions cannot be physical? Where's the proof that red is not a substance?

Time isn't a substance, yet it is physical, so why do you think that, if red is not a substance, it and every other perception must not be physical? :undecided:


soldatheero said:
You fail to grasp this and that is why all the other arguments seem baseless.

:curbyourenthusiasm:

I failed to grasp all that bullshit you just told me? Do you mean to tell me that all the other arguments are based on all that bullshit? :hehehe:

I can't believe you think that what you said somehow validates all those baseless arguments...:tard:


soldatheero said:
The fact that perception is not physical is why materialists say consciousness "emerges" from the brain and it is the very reason why dualism and idealism exist as schools of thought.

Did you just make this shit up? :lol:

Emergent properties are not non-physical, I don't know where you heard or why you came up with that bullshit. :glittershitz:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Mindscapology]
    #14075593 -

Mindscapology said:


A video explaining why physicalism is illogical.


Utter garbage. All his claims are either baseless, or come from an irrational assumption.

An example of this is when he mentions Gottfried Leibniz. He mentions how Leibniz thought that emotions are nowhere to be found in the brain. He then presents this idea as being fact in order to prove his point.

But it isn't fact because his assumption has no evidence supporting it. This assumption that Leibniz is correct is illogical, as Leibniz has no evidence to support his claim that emotions are not in the brain.

Similar illogical arguments are made throughout the video. I don't see how any rational human being could be fooled by this crap.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14075608 -

Quote:
I don't see how any rational human being could be fooled by this crap.


Stick around. They come here in droves, though many meander over to the M&P forum where the water is safer.


--------------------

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
    #14075868 -

Quote:
Emergent properties are not non-physical, I don't know where you heard or why you came up with that bullshit


You sure about that? Just because the cause of something is physical doesn't mean it is physical. Materialism claims consciousness which itself is not physical is caused by the physical brain, however it is not disputed that consciousness itself is not a physical thing.

Hence consciousness is an "strong emergent property" of a physical processes that is completely different then what caused it to emerge IE) it's non-physical

"Strong emergence is a type of emergence in which the emergent property is irreducible to its individual constituents. Some philosophers have proposed that qualia and consciousness demonstrate strong emergence. Strong emergence stands in contrast to weak emergence.

Strong emergence says that if systems can have qualities not directly traceable to the system's components, but rather to how those components interact, and one is willing to accept that a system supervenes on its components, then it is difficult to account for an emergent property's cause. These new qualities are irreducible to the system's constituent parts.(Laughlin 2005) The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This view of emergence is called strong emergence. Strong emergence is a view not widely held in the physical sciences[citation needed] but proposed as a philosophical theory of etiology, epistemology and ontology." wiki

Pretty sure consciousness is considered the only example of "strong" emergence. Simply because of what I've been saying - that consciousness is non-physical but is suppose to have been produced by something radically different in nature - the physical nervous system or neural networks.


The plausibility of strong emergence is questioned by some as contravening our usual understanding of physics. Mark A. Bedau observes:

"Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing."

Quote:
The fact that perception is not physical is why materialists say consciousness "emerges" from the brain and it is the very reason why dualism and idealism exist as schools of thought.


Quote:
Did you just make this shit up?


No you just don't understand it because you fail to grasp that experience itself is non-physical. Jokes on you.

Quote:
Emergent properties are not non-physical, I don't know where you heard or why you came up with that bullshit


:cuteshit:


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: soldatheero]
    #14076555 -

Pold:
You chastise me for an ad hominem attack and then you attack others by using an image of a Down's Syndrome person. Further, you wrote:
"Time isn't a substance, yet it is physical".
I think it's better if you just leave this discussion, if you don't want to further embarrass yourself.

Heavy Toilet:
You misunderstood what the narrator said about Leibniz-indeed you misunderstood Leibniz. Feeling and brain activity are correlated (no-one doubts that), but they are not reducible.

--

Generally speaking, it should be pointed out what 'prove' means. It does NOT simply mean to provide physical evidence, as maths and logic are not proved this way obviously. And to prove something which asserts that something else is not physical cannot, of course, be proved by physical evidence!
Reason, above evidence, can be used to prove things.


--------------------
www.youtube.com/mindscapology

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Mindscapology]
    #14076660 -

Why don't you guys have an open mind about it? Its an interesting
concept and could very well be accurate. If it's not, oh well just
another explaination of conciousness, but IMO a better try than any
other.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Mindscapology]
    #14076764 -

Mindscapology,

Please read the forum rules regarding the posting of videos. Your OP breaks the rules.

Normally I would lock this thread but since it already has a following, I'll make an exception.

In the future, please follow the rules. Here's a link:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4526664#4526664


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Mindscapology]
    #14076782 -

good video to watch and has some good points but some of what he says is just illogical. for example your mind is not physical because of colors which aren't real yet exist or however he worded that-so people with color blindness don't have a physical problem? then wouldn't it be implied that their consciousness has a problem? medicine does prove a lot of the mind is in fact in the brain, just look where you are-the shroomery! every time you take psychedelics or other drugs it affects your brain, receptors fire, chemical levels change, etc etc.


With that being said however, I do believe that there is a part of the mind which goes farther than we think or can explain, but that it is probably a natural effect of physics and the way our neural pathways develop. For example I think some principle of negativity and positivity which are present on a molecular level will be present on a more tangible level as well because of its ubiquitous force throughout all atomic structures that make up our reality, though to truly understand it would be extremely sublime.


So wtf am I saying? well basically I believe that the mind and the brain are the same thing, and really that everything is the same thing on some level, but just different through our perception-like one strand of yarn can be woven into a tapestry, one ball of clay could be molded into a sculpture-it reminds me of a famous french painting of a pipe that says "this is not a pipe" meaning that it is literally only paint on a canvas, but we perceive it as a pipe. The brain is a physical thing that molds the mind, but I think the mind reaches down to the depths of physics and can effect the brain, so they are intertwined and effect each other. but idk, I just kinda watched the video, SKIMMED the thread, and blabbered on a little rant


--------------------


Music, business as usual
Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual
Highgrade we puffin as usual
Fight down the system as usual
The system fight we down as usual
The cops dem a watch we as usual
And a we a watch the cops as usual

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: 1tokeovrtheline]
    #14076807 -

if you are interested in this type of thing though I suggest checking out people who really know what they are talking about like john hagelin,

Here's a video I've posted before




but also just check out some related videos and google professor of consciousness, phd of consciousness, consciousness research etc

There's some crazy ass research in this field, it'll blow your fuckin mind-especially if you research it a little, watch some videos that discuss the POSSIBLE (not enough research) links with dmt, and then smoke some dmt, it'll change your life


--------------------


Music, business as usual
Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual
Highgrade we puffin as usual
Fight down the system as usual
The system fight we down as usual
The cops dem a watch we as usual
And a we a watch the cops as usual

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Mindscapology]
    #14077305 -

HeavyToilet said:
I don't see how any rational human being could be fooled by this crap.

It's been quite a pain debating the OP about this. :facepalm:



soldatheero said:
Quote:
Emergent properties are not non-physical, I don't know where you heard or why you came up with that bullshit


You sure about that? Just because the cause of something is physical doesn't mean it is physical.

It doesn't necessarily mean it isn't, either, and it's more reasonable to believe it is because no non-physical phenomenon has ever been discovered.


soldatheero said:
Materialism claims consciousness which itself is not physical is caused by the physical brain, however it is not disputed that consciousness itself is not a physical thing.

Yes it is.


soldatheero said:
Hence consciousness is an "strong emergent property" of a physical processes that is completely different then what caused it to emerge IE) it's non-physical

Proof?


soldatheero said:
"Strong emergence is a type of emergence in which the emergent property is irreducible to its individual constituents. Some philosophers have proposed that qualia and consciousness demonstrate strong emergence. Strong emergence stands in contrast to weak emergence.

Strong emergence says that if systems can have qualities not directly traceable to the system's components, but rather to how those components interact, and one is willing to accept that a system supervenes on its components, then it is difficult to account for an emergent property's cause. These new qualities are irreducible to the system's constituent parts.(Laughlin 2005) The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This view of emergence is called strong emergence. Strong emergence is a view not widely held in the physical sciences[citation needed] but proposed as a philosophical theory of etiology, epistemology and ontology." wiki

Pretty sure consciousness is considered the only example of "strong" emergence. Simply because of what I've been saying - that consciousness is non-physical but is suppose to have been produced by something radically different in nature - the physical nervous system or neural networks.

Nothing in that quote suggests that consciousness is non-physical.


soldatheero said:
The plausibility of strong emergence is questioned by some as contravening our usual understanding of physics. Mark A. Bedau observes:

"Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing."

Again, nothing here suggests that consciousness is non-physical.


soldatheero said:
Quote:
The fact that perception is not physical is why materialists say consciousness "emerges" from the brain and it is the very reason why dualism and idealism exist as schools of thought.


Quote:
Did you just make this shit up?


No you just don't understand it because you fail to grasp that experience itself is non-physical. Jokes on you.

:facepalm:

Why is it that so many people in this forum fail to grasp the concept of 'burden of proof"? What's so hard to understand?



Mindscapology said:
Pold:
You chastise me for an ad hominem attack and then you attack others by using an image of a Down's Syndrome person.

I'm not making a direct comment about another user by posting that image, am I?


Mindscapology said:
Further, you wrote:
"Time isn't a substance, yet it is physical".
I think it's better if you just leave this discussion, if you don't want to further embarrass yourself.

Goddamn, what's with all you n00bs who don't know jack shit about debating? :picard:

What do you think is wrong about that statement? You either believe that time is a substance, or that it isn't physical; either way, you're wrong, and I find it amusing that you think I'm embarrassing myself when I state a fact.

:tard:


Mindscapology said:
Heavy Toilet:
You misunderstood what the narrator said about Leibniz-indeed you misunderstood Leibniz. Feeling and brain activity are correlated (no-one doubts that), but they are not reducible.

Proof?


Mindscapology said:
Generally speaking, it should be pointed out what 'prove' means. It does NOT simply mean to provide physical evidence, as maths and logic are not proved this way obviously. And to prove something which asserts that something else is not physical cannot, of course, be proved by physical evidence!

Sure, proof can be in the form of a logical argument--you have not provided this for any of the baseless claims that exist in the video.

If you cannot prove your theory with physical evidence, then it is useless and unfalsifiable, like the God theory.


Mindscapology said:
Reason, above evidence, can be used to prove things.

It could be used to attempt to prove things, but so far none of it has. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/06/11 07:33 PM)

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
    #14077379 -

.

Edited by HeavyToilet (03/06/11 11:29 PM)

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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14077417 -

Whoops. :blush:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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