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Offlinelucid
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Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind...
    #2143955 - 11/29/03 10:50 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

In my personal experience I've discovered that
Meditation and having a quiet mind can be quite
dangerous. Meditation is an altered state of conciousness
where control is relenquished, much like with drugs.
It's easy in such a state to experience extreeme
terror and despair and then experience a Post Traumatic
Stress Disorder afterwards with the memory strongly
impinted in your mind. Also, even with a relatively
quiet mind, thoughts will inevitably arise (they
need to for us to function in this world), but
since the mind is quiet most of the time those thoughts
will have a pronounced affect. So one may suddenly
"realize" that life is a miserable affair and be
profoundly affected by it. Also, since meditation
involves observing thought, and not counteracting
or reacting in any way, there is no defense mechanism
- e.g. a thought challenging the "misery" of life - so
the original thought is allowed to have a severe impact.
Contemporary New-Ageism advocates Meditation as a panacea,
but I think it has great potential for harm...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2143974 - 11/29/03 11:06 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

thoughts will inevitably arise (they
need to for us to function in this world),


No man, sorry but for once i can not honestly* agree with you based on personal experience.... there APPPEARS to be an all knowing  WISDOM that can  and DOES take over in SOME of the higher states of conciousness,everything is put on automatic pilot, you just KNOW enough not to walk against a red light etc, there is no thinking necessary....that's all i'll say here though as i think you know WHY i say this :wink:

* For me not to have said anything would have entailed what I percieve to be deep dishonesty on my part 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2144174 - 11/29/03 12:58 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Hey Freak,
I respect your opinion, as always :sun:
I'm just wondering how similar the goals of
meditation are to neurosis.
I mean all this talk about losing the self,
that there is only suffering in desire and to
lose all desire etc seem to be the exact
recipe, as described by psychologists, for
painful Depersonalization (loss of self)
and Depression (no desire or interest in anything).


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2144197 - 11/29/03 01:14 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

lucid said:

I mean all this talk about losing the self,
that there is only suffering in desire and to
lose all desire etc ~~*seem*~~ to be the exact
recipe, as described by psychologists, for
painful Depersonalization (loss of self)
and Depression (no desire or interest in anything). 




It isn't anything like that at ALL when you're THERE though man! Even the smallest breeze through the leaves of a tree can elicit feelings of ecstacy unlike you(or anyone, don't get defensive on me :wink: )....wolf gets into all this in his chapter "the HIGH Indifference",in Pathways and HE points out that it's easy to see how this state(to one that has not YET experineced it) might seem run parellel to what clinical psychologists call DEPRESSION, when in FACT it is the exact OPPOSITE of depression.... It would be difficult for me to imagine two states more incongruous......
It is truly unfettered and boundless JOY beyond comprehension :smile:
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlineergot
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2144247 - 11/29/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

FreakQLibrium is so right (if I interpreted it, correctly). I consider it completely more blissful than caring about the routine of human life (school, work, nuclear family, government, whatever) and also loss of ego-dominance creates so much room for understanding, love, just general admiration of all of nature. A person can stop thinking about "damn, my mortgage payment is due..." and start thinking about the sunset.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: ergot]
    #2144906 - 11/29/03 06:44 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
FreakQLibrium is so right (if I interpreted it, correctly). I consider it completely more blissful than caring about the routine of human life (school, work, nuclear family, government, whatever) and also loss of ego-dominance creates so much room for understanding, love, just general admiration of all of nature. A person can stop thinking about "damn, my mortgage payment is due..." and start thinking about the sunset.




um, actually, according to the Buddha you would not be thinking
about the sunset... you would not be thinking at all...remember ?
"no-mind"...."quiet mind"...
remember, enlightenment is not positive thinking or thinking
about how beautiful something is....
it's not thinking at all...
allegedly, the claim is that this state of no-thought is
complete and abundant with joy...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2144917 - 11/29/03 06:48 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

um, actually, according to the Buddha you would not be thinking
about the sunset... you would not be thinking at all...remember ?
"no-mind"...."quiet mind"...


An excellent point Lucid, i hadn't noticed it B4, but generally i'd say our friend here interpreted very well(probably said it a lot better that i did as well) the original intent of my post :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlineeve69
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2145053 - 11/29/03 07:51 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Buddha didn't say to not think. In fact Buddhism totally forsakes formless states of absorptive samadhi. This is the whole point of vipissana and shamatha. To merge the mind in the state of samadhi and yet still remain very aware of the arising of thoughts.

You know, Buddhists say if one stays in the formless samadhi then they will reincarnate as an animal.

Finally, meditation really is not for everybody. Not every person can stand the full confrontation of their own psyche. It takes a real intense ability to not flinch in the face of hell. Hell is our mind in this modern world whee one false move and you smash up against a huge framework of artifice. I mean, if you work at McDonalds and you take a quiet moment for yourself then someone screams at you for not moving fast enough. It's hard enough to take breaks from the world to get a chance to meditate. However, once taken, many find it very hard to integrate. So it's always work. Nothing is handed to you on a plate scot free.

If you want to experience samadhi, and live in the world then you have to work twice as hard for it. But that's not a bad thing. At least then you really own the experience. Tha


--------------------
...or something







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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: eve69]
    #2145081 - 11/29/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Buddha didn't say to not think.




actually he did. According to the Buddha awareness is very
different from thinking. Note, he said to be "aware" of
arising thoughts (as an impartial observer),
he did NOT say to think over things (i.e. contemplate).
Big difference between the two.

Quote:

eve69 said:
Finally, meditation really is not for everybody. Not every person can stand the full confrontation of their own psyche.




um, according to buddhists the True Nature is blissful, if
that's true why would one NOT want to "confront" it ?

Quote:

eve69 said:
It takes a real intense ability to not flinch in the face of hell. Hell is our mind in this modern world whee one false move and you smash up against a huge framework of artifice.




"frameworkd of aritifice" ? :confused:

Quote:

eve69 said:
I mean, if you work at McDonalds and you take a quiet moment for yourself then someone screams at you for not moving fast enough. 




how does that relate to meditation and a quiet mind (not to be
confused with a quiet moment) ? according to Vipassena one
would be able to function much better in the ordinary world
with a quiet mind, since "struggle" ends... that's their claim...

Quote:

eve69 said:
It's hard enough to take breaks from the world to get a chance to meditate.




I've been fortunate/unfortunate enuff to meditate daily for
extended periods of time for many years...
I speak from my personal experience, anything else would be
conjecture...

 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2145420 - 11/29/03 10:34 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
Buddha didn't say to not think.



Quote:


actually he did. According to the Buddha awareness is very
different from thinking. Note, he said to be "aware" of
arising thoughts (as an impartial observer),
he did NOT say to think over things (i.e. contemplate).
Big difference between the two.




This is an ongoing debate between many seasoned Buddhists so I don't claim to have the answer. However, they maynot be any thought in parinirvana :wink:

Quote:

eve69 said:
Finally, meditation really is not for everybody. Not every person can stand the full confrontation of their own psyche.



Quote:


um, according to buddhists the True Nature is blissful, if
that's true why would one NOT want to "confront" it ?




The bliss is my experience. This isn't the confrontation that I'm really talking about.

I'm not even talking here about Buddhists per se, but about meditation, as such.  Whether one considers themself a Buddhist or not doesn't change what one has to face exactly when meditating. 

Quote:

eve69 said:
It takes a real intense ability to not flinch in the face of hell. Hell is our mind in this modern world whee one false move and you smash up against a huge framework of artifice.



Quote:


"frameworkd of aritifice" ? :confused:




People have constructed frameworks of self perception based upon what they own, their successes and failures, who they know, what they do, etc... people identify usually not with awareness or mind as such but instead with their face. They have a hard time finding themselves as a silent place of greatest abstraction. 

Quote:

eve69 said:
I mean, if you work at McDonalds and you take a quiet moment for yourself then someone screams at you for not moving fast enough. 



Quote:


how does that relate to meditation and a quiet mind (not to be
confused with a quiet moment) ? according to Vipassena one
would be able to function much better in the ordinary world
with a quiet mind, since "struggle" ends... that's their claim...




Well, you actually may have pegged it when you said somewhere that when the mind gets more silent then thoughts take on more intensity. However, in receptivity one can also see more detail and be more effective as well.  It's a fact that a loudmouth cannot hear while talking. Silence makes for better clearer perception. This can't be bad, and yet, it doesn't always work easily in today's world. The West is alot different from the East.

Quote:

eve69 said:
It's hard enough to take breaks from the world to get a chance to meditate.




I've been fortunate/unfortunate enuff to meditate daily for
extended periods of time for many years...
I speak from my personal experience, anything else would be
conjecture...

 


 


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2145509 - 11/29/03 11:47 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

In my personal experience I've discovered that Meditation and having a quiet mind can be quite
dangerous.


This is not the fault of meditation though, is it? In order to think about the contrast between the peace experienced when meditating properly and when not, you are by definition, not meditating!

Btw, life itself is dangerous.
As a matter of fact it's downright deadly. :wink:

I was going to quote more of your post, but it won't let me because of the way you post. We have wordwrap ya know!  :wink:







--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineMisnomer
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2145815 - 11/30/03 04:38 AM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Realizing the world is a miserable place is a limited thought, which goes against the perceiving/awareness of meditation. The world is. Not The world is this or that. If you find yourself encountering thoughts like this and they seem to affect you harshly then you probably should either meditate more or find a decent therapist because you are repressing something so important to your psyche that it is causing you to think in self destructive thought patterns. Re-emphasizing my previous point, if you "realize" that the world sucks while meditating you aren't meditating. Meditation is. A sunset can be beautiful or fearful but when meditating it is both and neither. It simply/complexly is.

You just aren't getting it. Your mind is a dangerous place, but it's all you've got. If you want to find some understanding in this world, you're going to have to face down what lurks behind your eyes. Not every session of meditation is going to be blissful, that's the point to a degree. Meditation is an experience, and experiences vary, no matter what. If every session were the exact same...stagnation.

P.S. Edit. Oddly enough, years ago, when I first tripped (on blotter) I ended my trip repeating the very comforting thought, "...a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip..." I had never meditated before but I understood something vital at that moment. The world is. It's not a bad trip, or a good trip, it's a trip which I think is awesome and frightening but altogether more interesting than happy or miserable.


Edited by Misnomer (11/30/03 04:43 AM)


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Misnomer]
    #2145847 - 11/30/03 04:52 AM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Misnomer said:
P.S. Edit. Oddly enough, years ago, when I first tripped (on blotter) I ended my trip repeating the very comforting thought, "...a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip..." I had never meditated before but I understood something vital at that moment. The world is. It's not a bad trip, or a good trip, it's a trip which I think is awesome and frightening but altogether more interesting than happy or miserable.




Amen brother. One of my favorite things to say is that life is a trip. And it is.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2146173 - 11/30/03 09:50 AM (13 years, 13 days ago)

I call life our "planetside trip".  :smile: :mushroom2:


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2146755 - 11/30/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

There were actually studies which linked meditation and the like to schizophrenia and other disorders, much in the same way LSD use can be a trigger.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2146767 - 11/30/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
There were actually studies which linked meditation and the like to schizophrenia and other disorders, much in the same way LSD use can be a trigger.




Hmmm... so it seems that there is actual scientific evidence
to suggest that meditation can be quite dangerous ?
links would be much appreciated...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2146785 - 11/30/03 03:34 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Friend, focusing on the negative?
It exists for a reason, learn from it.
I suggest you read the Tibetan Book of The Dead. It goes into great detail about encountering these "terrifying, monstrous" entities, and how to react to them.
The only harm comes when you let it envelop you, instead of passing harmlessly as a passing thought. You are too involved. Yes, life may be a miserable affair, but is that all you got from it? Surely there is more to it than that. WHY IS IT A MISERABLE AFFAIR?

Stop dwelling on your insecurities and stresses which you place upon yourself, and start focusing on transcending them. It's all within your power.

If you live in fear, so shall fear take control of you. You give fear it's power. Meditate in fear is no exception. It is not meditation that is at fault, it is your own non-neutrality. If I can encounter the most horrible thing in existance meditating, and come out of it the same person, so can you. I think you need to learn a lesson in balance, and taking responsibility for your thoughts.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2146792 - 11/30/03 03:40 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
WHY IS IT A MISERABLE AFFAIR?





Actually, I expressed myself terribly there, sorry
for the confusion.
What I really meant to say was that while meditating
my mind quiets down and I feel absolutely miserable
and awful (not that life is a miserable affair)...
I don't know why I feel this but I do...
there are no thoughts attached to it - i.e. no thoughts
that induce this feeling...rather it seems to permeate
through awareness.
And what I meant was that since I don't judge or challenge
the feeling cognitively (i.e. by trying to challenge the
thought) and simply "observe" it, it just stays...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2146844 - 11/30/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

I think there is a difference, in just 'observing it' and letting it stay.
The way I was taught, is to observe, and let it pass by. Like a floating cloud.
But then, you can always challenge the thought in retrospect.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2147462 - 11/30/03 07:28 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Shroomism is right. Many thoughts pass through ones minds while meditating. Instead of pulling one down from the sky, just let it pass by. Anything else is attachment which leads to suffering.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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