Home | Community | Message Board

Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2248974 - 01/17/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

From Time Magazine reagrding prayer studies:

"Mayo Clinic researchers have found no such connection. They reported last month that in their trials of distant prayer on 750 coronary patients, they found no significant effect. Why the difference?

Skeptics suggest that subconsciously, or perhaps consciously, Targ is emulating practitioners of the paranormal. With preconceived notions about the outcome of an experiment, they generate reams of data from tests that are not rigidly controlled and then sift through the data to find numbers supporting their original thesis, while ignoring anything to the contrary. "


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2248979 - 01/17/04 07:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Do you have a link?

Did you read my second post?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2248991 - 01/17/04 07:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Regarding the Harris prayer study:

"This was a reasonably well conducted study, [but] I think they made some mistakes," says Richard Sloan, Ph.D., a cardiovascular researcher at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in New York who closely follows research on spirituality and healing.

Sloan has trouble with several aspects of the Harris study. The prayers were for a "speedy recovery" but there were no measurable differences in hospital stays for the two groups, he says. "Half of their predictions failed at the offset."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2249055 - 01/17/04 07:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Over a 12-month period, about a thousand patients admitted to the CCU at Mid America Heart Institute (MAHI) in Kansas City, Missouri, were randomly placed either in the prayer or the control group under an assignment protocol based on chart numbering -- odd or even. As in the Byrd study, each patient in MAHI's prayed-for group was assigned to a team of "intercessors" who would pray for the patient on a daily basis. MAHI's teams consisted of five members each; Byrd's varied from three to seven. MAHI's intercessors prayed for "a speedy recovery with no complications" plus "anything else that seemed appropriate to them."

With regard to the matter of "speedy recovery," Byrd's study, in which the prayers had been targeted for "a rapid recovery and for prevention of complications and death," found no statistically significant differences in length of CCU stay, total days hospitalized, or number of deaths.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2249420 - 01/17/04 11:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>> There is no known mechanism of the mind that could do anything known to cause mutation

There is a problem with perspective if we say things like "mechanism of the mind". The mind can hardly be considered machine-like in any of it's functions. Even the physically tangible aspect of the mind, the brain, is difficult to categorize this way.

Sutra Mahamudra teachings suggest that the nature of mind is formlessness, empty like space. The function of such emptiness is to know, to impute objects and give rise to the experience of reality, just as silence can be said to function to give rise to sound. Nagarjuna (below) says that none of the objects or circumstances we experience exist from their own side, that it's mind which imputes all of them. Because we grasp at our sense of self as being a permanent, unchanging and totally detached observer of the universe, we mistake objects and experiences as being seperate from us, unfolding independently from their own side.

If we combine these two profundities, we discover conceptually that we are all part of the same essential continuum. Though, our current experience tells us otherwise. Events unfold around us that we cannot control. We do not wish for suffering, but suffering occurs none the less. Why do we have this view? Nagarjuna says that the degree to which we suffer is directly proportionate to the degree to which we mistake our view of reality, and that the degree to which we mistake our reality is directly proportionate to the degree that we grasp on to our sense of self, and prioritize it above all others.

Suppose that for a moment we could drastically reduce the intensity of our self-grapsing. How would things appear? Our experiences with psychedelic drugs tell us that there arises a profound sense of interconnectedness, bliss, and flexibility of our environment. These feelings are associated with ego-loss. Buddha says that interconnectivity and bliss are of the nature of ultimate truth, and that if we can cultivate a right view of self, we can escape suffering permanently and abide in a permanent state of dispassionate bliss. Naropa (below) articulated a means of accomplishing this in massive volumes of text called the Tantras*. The practice of Tantra is to actually change the basis of imputation for the self, to reorient our "I" to a more virtuous figure, as a stepping stone to enlightenment.

Through correct training in Mahamudra or Tranquil Abiding, we can directly realize the emptiness of our environment, that objects exist in dependence upon mind. Once we have attained this realization, we can begin our Tantric practice. The object of tantric practice is to use the imagination to dissolve the existing contaminated aggregates of body and mind, and acquire for ourselves a completely pure body and mind. Typically, we choose a pure icon such as Arya Tara or Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara as the basis of imputation for the I. The force of our intention and our imagination actually allow us to believe perfectly, with all of our sense-awarenesses and for as long as we choose, that we are actually Tara, or Avalokiteshvara, or whomever. For the duration of the session, that is who we are. We raise our arm, and it is pure white, holding a crystal mala, and our heart radiates stainless compassion in all directions. Conventionally, we are a human being in meditative equipoise, but the mind has discarded those images and adopted new ones. For practioners, the experience is that those views and imputations are reality and 100% authentic.

That is the power of mind. Since it is our mind which is interpreted by our brain, and it is our body that our brain controls and maintains, it is not so outlandish to suppose that a blister would arise if we strongly believed that we had been touched with a hot poker. When we are actually touched with a hot poker, our brain cues our body to generate scar tissue, and other protective measures. Our heart rate increases, our adrenaline is released, and we feel pain. All of these phenomenon occur in dependence upon mind.

One might say that it's the pain which gives rise to the release of adrenaline, heart rate and so forth. But it's important to distinguish between two types of pain. One is the sensory experience of pain which arises when nerve fibres are damaged or impacted. The other is the feeling of anguish which arises upon detection of that sensory experience. Each of these are dependent upon the other. It is most common that the sensory experience of pain cues the feeling of anguish, of resistence to suffering. Why is it so implausible to suggest that these steps could operate in reverse, that anguish could give rise to the sensory experience of pain, and the consequential bodily effects of a painful experience: scar tissue, heart rate, adrenaline and so forth? If the suggestion of painful experience is powerful enough, surely the perception of an authentic anguish is enough to give rise to all of these effects.

There is a difference between generating a reponse to an action that did not occur, and halting an event as it occurs. It is foolish to believe that even with training in higher concentrations that we can stop bullets from piercing our flesh. These are conventional occurances. All we can do with our minds is alter the way we experience such an event. My teacher once imparted to me a story about his teacher, Gen Kelsang Tharchin, who was bitten by a snake while meditating outdoors in the southern United States. He said that the experience was blissful and calm, and that he could feel his life essence being parted from his body as the venom entered his bloodstream. He said it was a careless experience free of pain and fear. Though, because he was not a fool, he roused himself from equipoise and went inside to find the proper medical assistance.

It is correct to believe that the mind is inextricably linked with the body, and can influence our experience and response to certain events. Martial arts masters have shown us that with proper concentration, the mind can be used to bend hammers and destroy ice blocks stacked four feet high. There is no immediate reason to discount the stories detailing the effects of mind on certain illnesses or experiences. Though, it is foolish to believe that we can become invincible this way.

:

Naropa (Left), and Nagarjuna (Right (Depicted with texts))

* It should be noted that the Tantras were originally a set of highly requested oral teachings from Buddha Shakayamuni.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Ped]
    #2249435 - 01/18/04 12:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Dito


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2249473 - 01/18/04 01:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Ped]
    #2249909 - 01/18/04 05:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Beautiful. Simply very beautifully put.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2250048 - 01/18/04 10:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleEgo Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2250058 - 01/18/04 10:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>>>This way he gets to selectively omit evidence that might be embarrassing to him

Yeah he's like a bad politician, only replys when hes thought of a hack!


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Ego Death]
    #2250065 - 01/18/04 10:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinePHARMAKOS
addict
Registered: 09/13/02
Posts: 573
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2250237 - 01/18/04 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

predictable yes, but in my oppinion one of the most valuable members of this forum, so lets not rag on him to hard. He is the reliable counterpoint that allows a good  debate to exist.

Mr. mushrooms, all those dictionary and thesauras entries were a bit of an overkill, dont ya think  :tongue:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2250251 - 01/18/04 12:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2250349 - 01/18/04 01:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>> He is the reliable counterpoint that allows a good debate to exist.

Absolutely.

All my opinions on the matter aside, it seems as though the reaction to Swami's posts indicate that he is perceived to be cocky and disfavourable. I've pondered a great deal while composing posts in this forum whether or not he is behaving this way from his own side, or if it's just the ripening of the insecurities and pridefulness of those he irritates. More than once, I've caught myself feeling bitter toward Swami for one reason or another, but then realized it was merely because I was not entirely secure in the views I was articulating at the time.


>> Swami's presence here helps a lot of people to think. But when he gets snotty and deliberately baits people that is another thing entirely.

As has been said: without a skeptic to poke at people's views and highlight the gaps in people's logic, we would be prone to wandering astray on our search for knowledge. We should value a member who shows us what we have overlooked. If he seems to be prideful and arrogant toward us, we should ignore those perceptions and focus only on what we can learn. Only what we can learn is helpful. It is not helpful to devote energy to scrutinizing the faults we think we see in someone who can act as a powerful teacher.

After all, it is only our own pride which can be bruised by the actions of somebody abiding within arrogance. If we are humble, we are not preturbed by appearances of conceit or self-importance. Meeting an arrogant person with our own attitude of humility is like setting hot coals atop his head: the error of his own pride is powerfully exposed to him.

Upon meeting someone who appears to us to be haughty and arrogant, we have the opportunity to discover our own pride and self-importance, and remove it like a thorn from our flesh. If we have wisdom, we will recognize the irritation we feel upon observing the pride of someone we encounter, and understand that it is our own pride which prompts us to entertain feelings of hatred. Now we have the opportunity to step out of the cycle, instead of deepening it's impression by starting an argument. Cultivating such a recognition, we can see even the most self-important people as precious teachers who help us to dispel the suffering of our own pride. We are very fortunate to encounter such beings. Without them, we would not have such perfect opportunities for introspection.

But let's not hold the wrong view that humility is "better" than pridefulness. Such a view is prideful in itself!


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Ped]
    #2250401 - 01/18/04 02:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

(LOL @ Ed!!!)

I was thinking about something I heard the other day, and I'm making a connection with the prayer healing thing.

I think I have this right, but I only heard it once, so if someone knows more about this than me, please correct me or add to it, because I think it's important to keeping our bodies healthy.

Stress causes us to release cortisone. Cortisone goes out and attacks the organs. If we pray (or meditate), it would stop the release of cortisone and even release some of those "feel good" chemicals or hormones, whatever they're called, and we would protect our organs from disease.

Something like that.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2250408 - 01/18/04 02:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Keeping a journal, while interesting , does not demonstrate causation. It merely records your thoughts about an event.

Five baiting lines in one thread, numerous personalizations, a falsehood, a contradiction, several evasions - what is there to respond to?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2251111 - 01/18/04 07:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The story about the monks is incredibly interesting, but I'd venture to say it isn't solely a mind-over-matter phenomena happening there. There are a great number of accounts of primitive people being completely comfortable in cold weather that would be utterly debilitating to someone used to the comforts of civilization. They were *used* to it, they'd never been pampered with electric heating and hot showers so thier bodies were far more able to adapt to temperature fluctuation.

At least part of it is a matter of conditioning the body to get *used* to such conditions. If you were to sprinkle cold water over your body every day, gradually increasing the duration of the excercise and the amount and iciness of the water it wouldn't be long before you became more tolerant of the cold. Team this with gradually lowering the temperature on your thermostat and wearing increasingly thinner clothing outside (assuming its winter) and your body will soon kick into gear and work harder to produce its own heat. The mind does play a role in this attempt, of course. If the whole time you're trying to teach yourself to tolerate temperature fluctuations you're thinking "holy shit i'm so cold" you're not going to have a very easy time at it.

I've been working on conditioning myself to be comfortable in the cold for awhile and my mind has played a significant role. It isn't "mind over matter" because the body itself adapts but having a supportive attitude seems to make all the difference.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2251240 - 01/18/04 08:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2251430 - 01/18/04 11:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2251438 - 01/18/04 11:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think most people would consider "properly conducted study" to mean a double-blind, controlled study, which your journal could not have possibly been.

http://skepdic.com/control.html


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* *~Meditation & Mind, Body & Spirit~* SoDak_Stranger 693 4 06/30/04 05:56 AM
by redgreenvines
* Early Christian Saints/Outlook on the body start25 2,011 14 10/23/03 08:30 AM
by Anonymous
* your mind COULD be creating reality
( 1 2 3 all )
Moonshoe 6,540 47 07/17/04 05:04 AM
by Source
* The Nature of the Mind is Clear Light
( 1 2 all )
Divided_Sky 2,178 25 09/13/04 05:15 PM
by deff
* the TrAnCe state of mind YellowSubmarine 831 6 08/16/03 04:26 AM
by Strumpling
* Plant based diet
( 1 2 3 all )
reflectedlight 4,219 59 10/15/03 10:38 AM
by hongomon
* spiritual truths
( 1 2 all )
Moonshoe 2,389 37 06/30/04 12:32 AM
by Panoramix
* The Brain Cherk 753 7 02/28/03 07:16 AM
by Earth_Droid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
11,692 topic views. 3 members, 0 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 14 queries.