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OfflinePhluck
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The Mind Body Connection
    #2245820 - 01/16/04 11:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think that's a Deepak Chopra book or something, but what I'm really talking about is the idea that you can will yourself into good health.

I have a friend who totally believes this. He made the claim that if you convince yourself it's not cold out, you won't get cold. I said that this might work fine until you start actually developing hypothermia, but he claimed that hypothermia could be prevented... if you believed you weren't cold. Of course, when hypothermia advances, it causes people to believe that they are perfectly warm, usually followed by death, not if you don't believe it, according to my friend.

He even claims we can become bulletproof using our minds. Of course, he's not willing to test it, as he's not that advanced.

This kind of thinking is not only blatantly incorrect, it's dangerous. There are people who have died because they believed they could beat serious illness using their minds.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2245830 - 01/16/04 11:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Or think about that religiion...Christian Scientist, I think it is, that believes in the power of prayer to heal and refuses doctors for healing. It doesn't work, I understand.

There have been cases where they don't treat their children and the court usually steps in and orders them to take their children for treatment, because the kid will die if not treated.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2245837 - 01/16/04 12:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This kind of thinking is not only blatantly incorrect, it's dangerous. There are people who have died

Natural selection in practice :smile:


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2245852 - 01/16/04 12:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"There have been cases where they don't treat their children and the court usually steps in and orders them to take their children for treatment, because the kid will die if not treated. "

Yeah, it's really awful to see these things happening.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2245899 - 01/16/04 12:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I completely agree, though I do think that your state of mind has at least something to do with your health.

Not that this is something unexplainable!

When you are stressed out, your brain triggers the release of stress hormones (cortisone) which do have a detrimental effect on the body, for example.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2245903 - 01/16/04 12:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You'll always have to make exceptions for children of course (keep them alive until they can decide for themselves), but what are you supposed to do with adults with such beliefs? You could forcibly treat them for their "insanity", but then you get the problem of deciding what's sane.

Btw. while on the topic of children and beliefs, I think the french shcool system is really on to something whith their principle of schools void of religion.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: trendal]
    #2245907 - 01/16/04 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yup, I would completely agree there. Some people hear things about how your psychological state can affect your health, and exagerrate the implications of this.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: muhurgle]
    #2245917 - 01/16/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think people need to be well educated about these things. They too often get medical advice from religious leaders, or alternative health practicioners without consulting real doctors.

They'll point out that lots of people die who visit real doctors, or that medical drugs are more damaging than helpful, pointing to a few anecdotes of adverse reactions to drugs. Of course, then they ignore the fact that plenty of people who seek alternative medicine also die, and that modern medicine has been tested, and has a far better sucess rate.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2245985 - 01/16/04 01:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Of course, but what if their convictions are the result of blind faith (like with the 'christian scientists'), not just bad information?

Anyway, I think it's one of many good arguments for keeping stuff like faith away from childen.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: muhurgle]
    #2246013 - 01/16/04 01:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think education can help prevent things like blind faith, not always, but sometimes.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2246077 - 01/16/04 01:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i knew someone who thought they could will themselves to fly, and yes they juimped off their roof,  broke his leg and serves him right. 

I think the mind has something to do with health, at least if you keep yourself from stressing a lot, that's a lot of wear and tear on your body that could be avoided.  other than that I see it impossible to manipulate your atoms that way.  or at least I haven't seen anything to back it up.  hehe except marvel...but that's another story to tell  :smirk:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblejpod
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2246117 - 01/16/04 02:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I know a practicer of an eastern martial art (Tai-Chi) who has an amazing mind-body connection. He has been training in the art since 4 years old, around 20 years in total. This guy can do some really crazy things. Once time I witnessed him stand on his big toe for 12 hours with his foot pointed vertically downwards. I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. He practices all sorts of training routines which include pain resistance as well, and can definitely avoid feeling any sort of pain if he chooses. I don't understand exactly how people can do such things, but it certainly is possible to greatly improve upon one's bodily awareness.

I believe the part about not feeling cold if you don't want to. But they would definitely get hypothermia as you say. Some people practice the pain resistance techniques by stabbing each other with blades, as my friend can account for with his scars. They are careful of where to stab however, because some things are just out of your control, like bleeding to death or organ failure.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2246170 - 01/16/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I seem to recall some research I saw recently that indicated stress had a detrimental effect on the immune system. 


As for blocking out pain...  its totally possible, but that doesnt stop the damage to your body that the pain is supposed to be warning you of :smile:

I remember in one martial arts school i went to, the teacher made us repetitively hit our shins with thick, short wooden sticks.  The purpose was to deaden the nerves so we could block with force.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2246225 - 01/16/04 03:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

stress hormones have an extremely detrimental effect on our bodies, definately. They are only supposed to be in supply for short periods of need, but instead they wear away at our bodies.

In terms of mind & health, this isnt exactly the same, but a study in which breast cancer victims were either put through treatment, or treatment + a support group showed that the support group group lived an extra 6-12 months longer than the other group.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Kremlin]
    #2246362 - 01/16/04 04:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, we can block out pain, but like DoctorJ said, it won't prevent injury.

"In terms of mind & health, this isnt exactly the same, but a study in which breast cancer victims were either put through treatment, or treatment + a support group showed that the support group group lived an extra 6-12 months longer than the other group."

It could also be an indirect link. Those who attend support groups are probably less depressed and more likely to eat well, take their medication and whatnot.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2246614 - 01/16/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I believe the mind plays a pretty significant role in our physical health, but not to the level your friend believes. If you're sick and positive that you'll get better you have a better chance than if you're pessimistic, depressed and angry about your circumstance. That's probably more because stressful thoughts and emotions are hard on the body, so giving your body a break and letting it fight what it should really be fighting instead of having the distraction is a good idea.

Body and Mind interplay very closely, but to say that you can outthink or outbelieve a physical fact is pushing it just a little. Its an idea born of our culture's disrespect and denial of the physical and isolation and deification of the contemplative process.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: jpod]
    #2246742 - 01/16/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Once time I witnessed him stand on his big toe for 12 hours with his foot pointed vertically downwards.

You sat and watched for 12 hours straight?

Despite amazing physical feats, martial artists don't live any longer than other athletes like swimmers or runners.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2246773 - 01/16/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's true, nor was this solely a demonstration on mental ability, he had probably practiced this many times in the past, strengthening his toe.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2246790 - 01/16/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Here is the thing that many adherents of the strong "thinking can affect your health" advocates misunderstand, is that those who survived cancer are the ones who write the books.

What I mean is that those who attempt to "think themselves well" and die do not pass on any message whatsoever. So the believers assume that the cancer victim did not believe strongly or deeply enough. The survivor is amazed and looks to find a reason why he/she was spared and after-the-affect attributes some mental emotional posture to their survival.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblejpod
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2246814 - 01/16/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You sat and watched for 12 hours straight?




Hehe, no I didn't mean to imply that I watched for 12 hours straight. I was in his house at the time though (hanging out with other people), and saw him at various points throughout. I don't really have a reason to disbelieve his claims though. Another thing I found amazing as well, that this was the conclusion to a period of fasting. I dunno how he had the strength.

Quote:

Despite amazing physical feats, martial artists don't live any longer than other athletes like swimmers or runners.




I have never looked into this, but this is very likely true.


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