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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2248120 - 01/17/04 01:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2248130 - 01/17/04 01:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Shroomism]
    #2248144 - 01/17/04 01:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

skorpivomusterion: im sure ive seen that exact same show, where the monks sit and meditate in the snow by a lake and there helpers dip towels in the lake and wrap them on the monks naked bodies. You can actually see the steam rising off and they compete to see who can dry the most towels. They can also slow there heartbeats and control other supposedly autonomic (uncontrollable) processes with mental discipline.

phluck: im pretty sure it isnt complete myth in fact im pretty sure its 100% fact. However my affirmation has no more evidence behind it than your rejection

who was it that said reality was like a semi flexible rod? i agree totally. It can be bent, if not exactly broken. i think i misposted a bing long piece of crap about this in another thread (comparing why i believe in some 'paranormal' stuff like certain types of 'magick' that bend reality by mind control, but not things like TK which claimn to 'break' reality if you will)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2248166 - 01/17/04 01:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)


?The causes of much of human cancer remain obscure.?

That?s a quote from one of your links?
And I agree?
Which goes to show how relatively little science can prove today? So simply because science can?t truly prove by using basic orthodox tests and experiments on people in validating that the mind does have significant effect on the body? does not necessarily mean that all other reasonable possibilities are therefore, unacceptable and unvalid.
BUT? what you CAN look at? is statistics. Numbers don?t lie.

But if I show you a link that has stastical data from clinical psychology studies showing that depressed people have a higher rate of cancer than those who are not, will you just shrug it off and say ?Well, 99 percent of statistics are false.?? :grin:

Ultimately, I don?t think that this aspect of debate is going to get anywhere, because ultimately, neither of us can prove that either of us is wrong.

So we just might have to agree to disagree. :grin:


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2248269 - 01/17/04 02:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i dont really see how someone can actually disagree that there is a mind body connection, or that the mind can influence the body and vice versa ,especially from a scientific paragidm. I mean the placebo effect is pretty much unshakeable scientific fact. Any new medicine must prove in clinical studies that is more effective than the placebo effect (the power of mind) and often they are not! i guess the debate comes down to the issue of to WHAT DEGREE the mind body connection functions, or what the Upper limit is to these powers of mind.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2248294 - 01/17/04 02:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly. It's no surprise that tribal natives living in the Peruvian Jungles who are unbound by the 'science' that is pummelled into our brains from day one like we are... do just fine with their medical methods that some skeptical westerners deem ?primitive, unvalid, and unworthy?. Example


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2248333 - 01/17/04 02:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2248356 - 01/17/04 02:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It's Ancient Greek, which translates into Scorpion Mystery.


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2248364 - 01/17/04 02:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2248565 - 01/17/04 04:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
And I was healed of cancer by prayer.

Ah, the refreshing power of anecdote. Here, let me try:

Our whole family prayed for a favored aunt and she died a painful death from cancer.

I had a friend, who in the middle of a deep depression, prayed to die and yet he still lives.

Do mine cancel yours out or can you show causation?




The Power of Prayer: More Evidence


Clinical studies continue to show prayer heals. Dr. Larry Dossey revealed the results of a second phase study at Duke University on the power of prayer.

The MANTRA project at Duke is headed up by cardiologist Dr. Mitchell Krucoff and nurse practitioner, Susan Craven. The results show that heart patients who receive prayer have 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than those patients not prayed for.

If patients agreed to be part of the study they were randomized and the "prayer" patients' names went to prayer groups around the world. First names only were sent via e-mail to Buddhist groups in Nepal, Hindus in India and Jewish groups in Jerusalem. Catholic nuns, Unity Village Missouri and Protestants in North Carolina also participated.

The full report on the study will be published in an upcoming issue of the American Journal of Cardiology, according to Dossey. It will be the first time a heart journal has published a study on the effects of "distance" prayer.

Dossey also noted hundreds of other studies on the power of prayer that, until now, have been mostly ignored by the allopathic, or traditional medical community. However based on the Duke study Dossey concluded, "There's no going back. This is a huge transition in medicine. Medicine will not be able to retreat from the impact."

http://www.mercola.com/2001/jun/30/prayer.htm


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2248592 - 01/17/04 05:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Halfway around the world, American Sufi Muslims join in. Fundamentalist Christians add their prayers, as do Orthodox Jews at Jersualem's Western Wall.

"Jimmy P," a heart patient at Duke University Medical Center in North Carolina, is part of a global scientific experiment trying to find out: Does prayer heal?

The experiment was launched by Dr. Mitch Krucoff, a cardiologist at Duke University Medical Center.

"If in addition to all the prayer routinely going on all the time, we were to add prayers from religious groups all over the world focused on one individual's recovery, is there a measurable incremental benefit?" he wondered. So he is putting prayer to the test in a global scientific study that is scheduled to be completed next year.

Putting Faith to the Test

In the meantime, other scientists are taking a look at the 191 studies that have already been done on what they call "remote healing."

One such study was conducted at the Mid America Heart Institute in Kansas City, Mo. At first, Dr. William Harris had a hard time persuading a fellow cardiologist, Dr. James O'Keefe, to participate in the prayer experiment on heart patients.

"From a purely scientific standpoint, I thought it was illogical," says O'Keefe. "I don't really think of spirituality normally as playing a role in scientific, rigorous, double-blind placebo-controlled scientific studies. It's two different realms."

A previous study by some other scientists had gotten positive results, and Harris wanted to study remote healing for himself. But he, too, was skeptical.

"We were even doubtful that the phenomena itself was real," he says, "that prayer could do anything."

So Harris wanted to make his experiment impervious to any placebo effects. He did not tell patients they were being prayed for ? or even that they were part of any kind of experiment. For an entire year, about 1,000 heart patients admitted to the institute's critical care unit were secretly divided into two groups. Half were prayed for by a group of volunteers and the hospital's chaplain; the other half were not.

All the patients were followed for a year, and then their health was scored according to pre-set rules by a third party who did not know which patients had been prayed for and which had not. The results: The patients who were prayed for had 11 percent fewer heart attacks, strokes and life-threatening complications.

"This study offers an interesting insight into the possibility that maybe God is influencing our lives on Earth," says O'Keefe. "As a scientist, it's very counterintuitive because I don't have a way to explain it."

A Miracle or Simply Chance?

Dr. Elizabeth Targ, a psychiatrist at the Pacific College of Medicine in San Francisco, has also tested out prayer on critically ill AIDS patients.

All 20 patients in the study got pretty much the same medical treatment, but only half of them were prayed for by spiritual healers. Ultimately, 10 of the prayed-for patients lived, while four who had not been prayed for died.

In a larger follow-up study, Targ found that the people who received prayer and remote healing had six times fewer hospitilizations and those hospitalizations were significantly shorter than the people who received no prayer and distant healing.

"I was sort of shocked," says Targ. "In a way it's like witnessing a miracle. There was no way to understand this from my experience and from my basic understanding of science."

Dr. Deepak Chopra believes "there is a realm of reality which goes beyond the physical." (ABCNEWS.com)

Dr. Deepak Chopra, who is well-known for his insights on science and spirituality, says these prayer experiments are proving what he's been saying all along: There are healing forces in nature that science is only beginning to understand.

"What physicists are saying to us right now," he says, "is that there is a realm of reality which goes beyond the physical ? where in fact we can influence each other from a distance."

But the final verdict on prayer is still not in, says Dr. Gary Posner, a skeptic of remote healing who says most prayer studies to date have been sloppy and untrustworthy.

"I suspect that 50 years from now people looking back at this genre of prayer research will kind of shake their heads and call it junk science."

Chance alone, he says, might account for the effect that they thought was due to the prayer.

But Chopra says he is just glad science is taking the belief seriously enough to want to study it.

"At the moment, I would agree that some of these studies are tentative, that we should be cautious in the way we interpret the results," says Chopra. "But the studies are encouraging enough that we should pursue them, because if we don't, we may have missed one of the most amazing phenomena in nature."

abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/ Downtown_010813_remotehealing_feature.html


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2248678 - 01/17/04 05:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Do you have any studies or research that backs up your claim?

I need studies to show that the dead do not write "I survived due to my thinking" -type books?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2248683 - 01/17/04 05:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

But here's the kicker; they also wrap cold and wet white sheets around their body...

Yeah, but they can't seem to yet master the blue sheets.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2248696 - 01/17/04 05:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The results show that heart patients who receive prayer have 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than those patients not prayed for.

Nice extraction there. Read on and you will find that the survival rate was THE SAME. They do not include death as a side-effect!


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2248746 - 01/17/04 05:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Did you read my second post?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2248808 - 01/17/04 06:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, but let's stick with the first study and respond to that particular issue before you go running off.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2248830 - 01/17/04 06:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You're just pissed off because you don't know how to pray and receive answers...
You certainly would NOT accept this type of mind-reading when someone responds to your posts. Why the exception for you?

He and I each kept a prayer journal recording our successes at intercessional prayer.
And if you had died, you would not be posting about your success. There are those that survive and do not pray. You have shown no causal link.

You can call that anedotal too if you want to...
Has nothing to do with my desire. It IS an anecdote by any definition.


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2248903 - 01/17/04 06:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Swami]
    #2248925 - 01/17/04 06:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The results show that heart patients who receive prayer have 50 percent to 100 percent fewer side effects than those patients not prayed for.

Nice extraction there. Read on and you will find that the survival rate was THE SAME. They do not include death as a side-effect!




No, you have to read on to my second post on this subject. The second post shows a follow-up on the same study. 

And there was no discussion as to the survival rate, only with regards to the side effects. 

Read the second article.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2248951 - 01/17/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am surprised that an advanced student of philosophy still finds personalization to be a valid counterpoint.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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