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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2254454 - 01/19/04 11:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2254499 - 01/20/04 12:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Fallacy of a weak analogy. That is, of course, unless you are thinking of God in terms as simple as a computer. Prayer is a relationship between two senient beings. God isn't like a vending machine. Pop in a quarter and out comes a pop."

Still, there's no reason to believe that the effictiveness of prayer cannot be tested (as long as you define the purpose of prayer), without understanding the mechanism.

Determining whether or not X leads to Y does not require an understanding of how or why X leads to Y.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2254513 - 01/20/04 12:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What about the mind body connections, out of prayer? What if i didnt take it from a christian perspective? Are we still on the same level here?

Because if i take it from the perspective that this test only comes from the christian/prayer perspective, Wouldnt i essentially miss the mechanism for devotional/physical change?

How can we assume that "prayer" must be of the christian decent. Im saying screw the name and look at the "science" of it.

I have not been "christian" for a long time. I have remained skeptical, while my faith relies in knowing that some things are unknown, and things will be as they are to an extent.

But what about changing your thoughts? Dont thoughts inevitably lead to action? If that is true, than could it also be true that by somehow disturbing our "thoughts" by "prayer" we would essentially get some physical change?

Maybe there is a difference between taking that real delve inside your own psyche, than just half heartedly making a mutter of words to what someone believes as "god" or "the universe".

If no one is cares to understand what these things are around us, how are they ever to know how to operate them? I think that could explain why it "doesnt work" for some people, and the others maybe just got lucky.

I dont know if that helps trying to define the current situation or what. Maybe it just raised more questions than it answered, i dont know.


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What?


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2254515 - 01/20/04 12:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2254633 - 01/20/04 12:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I understand what you are saying, I think, Zero.

I believe that if you conscientiously make a choice to do something, or believe something, and focus on it with your consciousness, you will be open to the very things put in your path that will help you achieve that decision, or mind-set, and then you can put those choices into effect.

This is only for the purposes of dicussing choices in one's life, not as to consciousness having an affect on one's body.

A year ago, I met someone on Texas. Not being rich, and having a law practice here, still, by having the mindset that I was going to spend time with the guy in Texas, I was able to find ways to run my practice and manage my share of the family while going to Texas for 2 weeks every month and spending time with that guy there.

When our mind makes a decision to do something, and focuses on the positive of doing it, not the negatives, we can accomplish that which we set out to accomplish.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2254637 - 01/20/04 12:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

but dont the choices in ones life have an effect on ones body? Maybe gentically speaking they might not be so easy to say. But as far as some things are concerned, we are somewhat responsible for the mindstates, lifestyles we are in.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2254672 - 01/20/04 01:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well, are you talking about stress? Calm?

If we make choices that are bad for us, of course we are affecting our bodies with negative stress. If we make good choices, we affect our bodies with positive stress.

Too much positive stress, like adrenalin, is probably not good for us, but some is good for us.

I'm sort of rambling, I think.

I put myself into a mode of thinking about a year and 3/4 ago, as I discussed on an earlier thread, because my paradigm was shifted, or something like that.

Before I encountered the extreme stress that caused the paradigm shift, I was always stressing over something. This caused me to break out in hives, as romantic as that sounds. (Stress attacks the organs of the body. My stress's organ of choice was my skin.)

After the paradigm shift, and because of my new way of thinking, I don't stress over things the way I used to. They will work out or they won't. Not to say I'm just going to scratch my butt and sniff, but I will take appropriate courses of action and see what happens, knowing that God is in control, so to speak, and what will happen will happen.

(I hate saying that, in a way. If someone challenges me, I will clear it up, if I can still remember of what I was thinking when I wrote it.)

So, how we live our lives is going to affect us consciously, and how our brains perceive our thoughts is going to affect our bodies.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2254917 - 01/20/04 03:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2255654 - 01/20/04 11:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"To put it in terms of your computer analogy we don't have to know how a computer runs in order to use it. However, we do need to know how to use it in order to use it. That is what I meant by the word, 'mechanism'. In order to know how to pray and get results we need to know how to pray."

Well, I could pull out the ol' dictionary... :smirk:

but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Whether or not it can be tested it debatable, but I'm sure neither of us have the funds or time to set up a test. Maybe someday I'll be the head of CSICOP, and I'll be able to consult with you over the design of an experiment, but until then, it's going to remain undetermined.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Phluck]
    #2255669 - 01/20/04 11:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't see why it can't be tested. What if a certain number of people volunteered to pray for say, 5 specific things? Everyone journals how much they pray, when, etc. Then we see if the prayer was answered. Something like that?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2257784 - 01/20/04 11:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2257819 - 01/20/04 11:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What is this "ability to pray" that people might lack?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2258486 - 01/21/04 02:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2258537 - 01/21/04 02:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No.  I don't know what the terms are, and I feel like you are purposely being evasive, or someone is. 

I was a Catholic from baptism just after birth until I was 18, at which time I became a Christian.

I don't recall any terms or conditions that had to be met in order for prayer to be effective.  Prayer for anything

So I'm curious what terms and conditions have to be fulfilled in order for prayer to be effective. 

And I've never heard of "guaranteed results".  I've heard of "yes, no or maybe".  But not guaranteed. 

I'm sort of feeling in the dark here.  :oogle:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2258554 - 01/21/04 02:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2258581 - 01/21/04 02:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

With bated breath. (In all seriousness, yes.)

Edit: Keep in mind, I have gone to a lot of bible studies, a lot of "church", and read a lot. I am really curious about that which you are speaking because it would seem I would have heard it somewhere before now.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (01/21/04 02:44 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2258638 - 01/21/04 02:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2258651 - 01/21/04 03:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

LOL!!!

Okay, I see what you are saying.

That's how I learned to pray:

"Dear God, if it's in your will, could I please have (the ferrari, a nice house, lot's of paying clients, etc.)???"

And that's where "yes, no, or not now" come into play. If it's in His will, it's "yes". If not, it's "no". And if it's in His will, but you're not ready for it, for whatever reason, it's "not now".


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: Frog]
    #2258681 - 01/21/04 03:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Mind Body Connection [Re: ]
    #2258686 - 01/21/04 03:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Are you going to tell the punch line to your joke?  Or was it self-evident?  Maybe I'm not as quick a study as you thought...

There are a couple of ways of which I know that enable one to discern His will:

1)  Ask for three confirming events, or

2)  Look for "signs".  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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