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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Do you belive you are your brain?
    #1145412 - 12/16/02 08:54 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Do you? I personally think so. However, I do not know how any amount or interaction of neural events causes the actual taste of an orange or the feeling of love I experience from my family.

I am curious to what extent YOU (the great people of s,p&s) believe this or whether you believe it at all.



--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineFcuerkt
insane visionary

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 371
Loc: the center of a xenon ato...
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1145515 - 12/16/02 09:40 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I also think my mind is my brain. But it's more like my brain is a 3-dimensional manifestation of whatever my mind is.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1145565 - 12/16/02 10:01 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I am my mind... a process that manifests from neural activity.

It's like asking if Windows XP is the hard drive.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1145588 - 12/16/02 10:05 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

It's like asking if Windows XP is the hard drive.

It always comes back to sex, doesn't it?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1145650 - 12/16/02 10:28 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I have inquired many people the following question, and asked them to choose one:

1. I am a brain.
2. I have a brain.

around 90% say 2, and out of these people, amost all believe in a God, soul, or life after death. They feel they are controlling their body, instead of being the body. I for the record feel I am a brain.


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

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Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1145898 - 12/16/02 11:53 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

If I think of an apple, I can see it in my mind.

I don't understand how this apparently non-physical image is produced by my physical brain. The same way I can replay songs in my head...I'm hearing the noise, but it's making no sound.

I'm not saying that these things aren't produced by the brain, i'm just saying that I don't know how it's done.. Why should I assign mystical properties to a phenomena that I have no understanding of?


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

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Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1145909 - 12/16/02 11:57 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

What about astral projection?


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1145931 - 12/16/02 12:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I consider myself as the result of my brain processing the information it has recorded. I am what "happens" to my brain.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1145987 - 12/16/02 12:34 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Ah yes. I should rephrase it then:

Do you believe that the mind is wholly an emergent phenomenon of the brain?



--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1145995 - 12/16/02 12:37 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

aahhhh

so do you mean: are you already you when you're born, or does the brain create the essence of "you" through experience?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146028 - 12/16/02 12:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"Do you believe that the mind is wholly an emergent phenomenon of the brain?"

To which I would answer, no.  Such thinking is reductionistic and there are valid philosophical arguments for maintaining that the two are more than analytically distinct.  I would really like to hear some of Sclorch's thoughts on this since my ideas regarding this are one of the few tenets of my philosophical belief system.

If he promises not to get overly technical with scientific terms I'll promise not to get too overly technical with philosophic terms. :wink:

That way the general audience will see who has the better argument. :smile:

Cheers,

Sclorch, ball's in your court. :wink:


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1146063 - 12/16/02 01:07 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

hhhummmmmmm the latter. But im sure that's a simplified understanding--I dont know what happens in the brain when I start to be consciously aware of myself or when the brain creates my "essence". Basically im saying I don't know if the brain creates my essence of 'me' exclusively through its 'experience', but possibly through many other processes i dont know about.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146080 - 12/16/02 01:14 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, yes I do.


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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
Female

Registered: 12/11/02
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Loc: Ontario
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146082 - 12/16/02 01:15 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"there was a time i though, the mind would force the body
there was a time i though, the mind would force the soul"





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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1146114 - 12/16/02 01:25 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Whoa. You and sclorch are gonna duke it out? YESSSSS. Ahem, or should i say dance toward the most defensible position...yes i think i should.  :ooo: :grin: :laugh:

I might as well never make another thread, cause this is gonna be the best one.(jk i will make plenty of annoyingly basic  threads.)

This is a VERY important topic to me too! 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146195 - 12/16/02 01:47 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

what do you mean, am I my brain? I am me and my brain is my brain...hmm wait a second, I guess i am my brain. Hello brain, i'm talking to you now, but actually i'm talking to myself, which is you, my brain.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146200 - 12/16/02 01:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Well, seeing as I am a disembodied brain, floating in a vat of electrolyte ala one of the first Star Trek episodes, then my answer would have to be yes. With a direct ethernet linkup to the internet, now you guys know why I am on the shroomery 24 * 7.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (12/16/02 04:27 PM)


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146255 - 12/16/02 03:32 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I am my brain and my body... but I'm "mostly" my brain. :grin: 


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146300 - 12/16/02 03:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I remember a similar discussion just about a month ago, "Breaking down personal identity":

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum11&Number=1026278&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

The discussion went something like this: Suppose that an exact copy of your brain was made and put into another body, and your existing brain were destroyed. Would the new body be you, or someone else? It would certainly think it was you, but is it?

And if the old brain weren't destroyed, are there two you's?

Based on that discussion, I concluded that the thoughts that your brain produces are "you", and not the brain itself.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/16/02 04:02 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1146315 - 12/16/02 03:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

yeah I think it has a lot to do with what the brain records - and there's no way two different brains can record all of the same experiences precisely the same, even if they're identical twins they'll never be in the exact same place with all their sensory mechanisms pointed in the same directions and processing the same inputs...... so I guess thats why everybody's different :smile:

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
i'm starting to ramble now... i'd better stay away for a while :wink:
"STARTING to ramble? dude you've done that ever since you got here. you talk to yourself too, remember?"
SSSSHHHH!!!


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (12/16/02 03:56 PM)


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Loc: Traped in a shell.
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1146331 - 12/16/02 04:00 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I kinda don't fully understand the question, but let me say this-

I have a brain that thinks. The mind is different than the brain, imo. The information inside my brain makes up my mind, and my soul has an imprint of my mind.

Does that answer the question?  :confused:


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (12/16/02 04:01 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1146377 - 12/16/02 04:14 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

seems to be a consensus that its experience that makes the person, and simple growth and reproduction that makes the brain and the body?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1146483 - 12/16/02 04:41 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I guess so.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineLucidDreams
Soul
Registered: 10/24/02
Posts: 35
Last seen: 18 years, 8 days
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1147533 - 12/17/02 01:34 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

In my opinion our information-based selves are much vaster then the brain
The brain is just this simple device put into the psysical body to recieve and process information into an understandable language..
Its like the radio, we live in this vast gigantic morphogenetic field comprised totally of information, the brain is the physical machinery (the radio) letting us "tap into" this field of information (the radio waves)...
We all in our own exclusive way use this field and "store" data locally, and are therefore able to have "memorys" and such...
But if we were to drop this notion of the self, we could acctually have access to ALL the information available in this field, meaning : the entire "Human Database" or Collective Uncounscious...
Then to entertain this notion further we could even begin tapping into non-local information...  (since information isnt bounded to time and space -- i.e bell space)..
This means that we could tap into ALL the information EVERYWHERE  in every time, ie, the "future" and the "past"...
And therefore also communicate with alien civilisations and such...

Eat a healthy dose of psilocybians and entertain this notion for a while...  :wink:
Peace and Love!

 


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 10 months, 27 days
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1147715 - 12/17/02 03:36 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The brain is just this simple device put into the psysical body...

I can't but snicker at this remark...



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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1147770 - 12/17/02 04:09 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The self is the brain

The not self is something else.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1148012 - 12/17/02 06:01 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The brain is what gives us our individual selves. But we are more than ourselves. We are all part of the same oneness, the Atman.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1148056 - 12/17/02 06:15 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Welcome to the Shroomery and SPS! :smile:

That was a great post.  I completely disagree with it but it still was great!

Post with us anytime.  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1148252 - 12/17/02 07:19 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"I" am something my brain tricks itself into seeing.  But I do not exist.  I am a part of something which was never born and will never die.  I am energy in motion.  I am every peice of food I've ever eaten.  I am the rain and the sun that fell on the fields, and the farmers that tended them, and the food they ate.  I am typing.  I am 70% water... some of it is dinosaur piss... some of it is from the blood you spilt when you were 6 and scraped your knee.... some of it was in the amazon 10 months ago.  I am stardust.  This mind of mine is something my brain produces, just as my mind produces my brain... but it is not me.  :grin:


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1148291 - 12/17/02 07:36 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But if we were to drop this notion of the self, we could acctually have access to ALL the information available in this field, meaning : the entire "Human Database" or Collective Uncounscious...




Ok, I'm ready "to drop this notion of the self."  If you really know what you're talking about, please tell me how one would go about doing this.  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1148345 - 12/17/02 07:53 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

My brain is created by my mind.

Of course, that doesn't mean that your brain is created by your mind.

In fact, your brain is created by my mind, too.  :wink: 


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1148385 - 12/17/02 08:07 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Eloquent.


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OfflineLucidDreams
Soul
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: nubious]
    #1148453 - 12/17/02 08:54 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

LOL nubious... :grin:
Well your right, its not THAT simple... but what is? :wink:

Well GoBlue! The funny thing about it is that is not something you "do" its more of a happening...
I'm sure you know that many different "techniques" and such have been developed during the ages to "drop the ego" or "drop the mind"...
I would say its not a "doing" because the action of "doing" requires a "doer" and therefor is bound to the whole thing again...  :smile:
Off course you could always eat a healthy dose of psilocybians (5dried gram - lie down in dark room) to have some of this running trough the system... i  mean its a very hightech device to decondition yoursef from this culture and the "everyday constructs" of our minds...
Its not really about "loosing the "self" either, its more to discover what the self IS...
The SELF is NOT (well, dont flame me please, it IS if you want it to be and live in it, and such, but please bare with me) all the symbols we put through the mind and build "views" the world with..
The self is the blank piece of paper... as this beautiful man says in Liquid Crystal Vision (see if if you havent :wink: ) "you have to erase all these lines"...
And when you do.. well, you see the world.. "the truth is know in silence" as this beautiful man Terence Mckenna said....
Drop the constructs beeing fed to us constantly (beware THIS is also a construct - decondition yourselfs from it as quick as you can)...
lets find the freedom that exists in the space between the thoughts... 
Its a window to the self...

Haha, I'm just repeating old paradigm stuff..
Lets do an exercise:

View the world trough this for a moment:
YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING!

Easy eh? :wink:

:grin: :grin:

 


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148476 - 12/17/02 09:05 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Haven't you ever lost your ego?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 30 days
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1148525 - 12/17/02 09:19 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the reply Lucid.  But I'm more confused now than ever.  :confused:

So just answer me this:  has anyone ever accessed the entire "Human Database" or Collective Uncounscious..."???  Was it while on 5g psilocybins in a dark room???  Was it only a temporary effect??? 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148543 - 12/17/02 09:24 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

So just answer me this: has anyone ever accessed the entire "Human Database" or Collective Uncounscious..."??? Was it while on 5g psilocybins in a dark room??? Was it only a temporary effect???

I became one with god (or 'god') for a short while and later was able to remember everything I have ever done in this life. I became more empathic and I could read people's emotions by looking in their eyes.

I doubt any human brain is capable of taking back everything accessed while on a level 5 trip.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (12/17/02 09:27 AM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 30 days
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1148566 - 12/17/02 09:32 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmmm, I've never done level 5 before. So I'm not really qualified to respond.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1148604 - 12/17/02 09:47 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Nice post Lucid. Interesting line I heard from a brain scientist once was "There isn't a shred of evidence that the brain creates consciousness".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1148636 - 12/17/02 09:57 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Well, we can do things to the brain to make you loose consciousness, and we can do things to the brain that makes you change consciousness. I understand this doesnt explain how the brain creates consciousness but it certianly connects the two very closely. Perhaps one day will find such evidence?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1148648 - 12/17/02 10:01 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I the ego am a brain

I (we) the essence am (are) consciousness, formless form


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1148650 - 12/17/02 10:03 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Wha?  :confused:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1148674 - 12/17/02 10:11 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I understand this doesnt explain how the brain creates consciousness but it certianly connects the two very closely.

Perhaps consciousness creates the brain
or
Brain does create consciousness
maybe
They create each other


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1148680 - 12/17/02 10:13 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Wha? :confused:

What part are you confused over?


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1148749 - 12/17/02 10:33 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

this doesnt explain how the brain creates consciousness but it certianly connects the two very closely.

I totally agree. I think science has proven that you can have consciousness without an arm, leg, or eye, but you can?t have it without a functioning brain. The connection is VERY strong, and any scientist who believes that the brain isn?t the source of consciousness probably has some ulterior motives.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineLucidDreams
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1148837 - 12/17/02 11:04 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Its very nice to have arrived at such a nice forum..
Nice post 3eyedgod :smile:
David Scpae, yes as you said, they are very closely related, and my hypothesis is still that the brain is the device that picks up  the "signals"...
Therefor we could say that for example psilocybin makes us "tune in" another frequency... therefor giving us another "program" of reality...
Or something like that...
But the worst "program" i've seen put in place "culture"...

Culture is not your friend folks...
It creates boundaries for you to live in...
Everything thats fits within the culture is ok, and everything that doesnt fit within it is argued against...

Trust the mystery....
Your minds are FREE...
Do as you wish
And create you dream...
There are no rules, no boundaries, lets clame our birthright...!!!
YES, this is what its all about... claiming our right as free beings..
Wow..
ehh..
Yes.



 


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1148841 - 12/17/02 11:06 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

But I do not exist.

Very nice answer. Please don't be offended if some of us do exist and know it.

There are several things I with with absolute certitude. My existence as an individual is one of them.

Cheers,


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OfflineLucidDreams
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1148867 - 12/17/02 11:19 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I have a counsciousness without my body..
When im roaming free, surfing the waves of hyperspace i dont have my brain with me, my body is just the shell i use in _this_ enviroment...
My counsciousness in "flying mode" is _very_ different from this brain-created program...
There are many disembodied entities living..
Creatures of pure information (as are we, we are DNA - though - basically information, our whoughts and such is basically information aswell - basically EVERYTHING is information - information preceeds all levels of complexity and energy) but not bound to physical form, vibrating on another level...
If you look carefully, we have access to lot of this information already, trough thoughts ideas and such but we can have direct contact... one interfacing program is psilocybin, another -very good one i must say - is DMT...
Plant communication is not limited to just plants you know... :wink:
And by the way, we have DMT in our bodies all the time... nice eh.. ?

Im not suggesting that we leave this place, im not even suggesting that you should go into hyperspace, nor have communication with discarnate intelligeces....im just suggesting opening up for the mystery, the magic and the wonderful beauty that exists EVERY MOMENT of creation...right infront of everybody....
Love is the key to the sea of bliss...!!  :smile:
Love

 


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1148898 - 12/17/02 11:28 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I (we) the essence am (are) consciousness, formless form

I don't get it. Could you rephrase it maybe?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Revelation]
    #1148945 - 12/17/02 11:46 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

i personally feel that since the entire world is contained within the brain, astral projection is eliminating all else, and travelling around the world within the brain, so that your body does not travel with you.


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1148953 - 12/17/02 11:47 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

very very good post :-)


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1148968 - 12/17/02 11:53 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

i personally feel that since the entire world is contained within the brain, astral projection is eliminating all else, and travelling around the world within the brain, so that your body does not travel with you.

The entire world is contained within the brain?  :confused:

Your brain? My brain? Everyones brain? How does it fit in there?  :confused:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1148993 - 12/17/02 12:00 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

yea. its nasty shit, and very messy... fitting the world into our brains...

its kinda the same way computers get smaller and smaller but they can hold more and more. keep on going at a rate like this, and soon you fit the world into a computer... it would also fit... because the brain is the hardware, the mind is the software, and the world is just made up of small jpegs :-)
i'm sure that doesnt make sense somehow tho... something about the ocmputer being within the computer but without.... but we can do that with astral projection :-) hooray!


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1149031 - 12/17/02 12:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Uh,.......okay.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisiblei am e goldstein
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: David_Scape]
    #1149053 - 12/17/02 12:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1149144 - 12/17/02 12:48 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I hope that makes sense to someone other then myself.

You did a good job of explaining why you believe you are more mind than brain, but I lost you on the part where you believe you are more energy than mind. Care to elaborate?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1149169 - 12/17/02 12:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, nobody bit the first time I asked these questions, so I'll give it one more try.  I think the following questions are TOTALLY on topic for this thread, and will take the discussion to a deeper level:

Suppose that an exact copy of your brain was made and put into another body and your existing brain were destroyed.
1) Would "you" be in the new body, or would someone else (it would certainly think it was you, but is it)? and
2) If the old brain weren't destroyed, are there two you's?

Any takers?  :wink: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149175 - 12/17/02 12:57 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I think that the host of the new brain would just have all the memories and things like that rather than the personality.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisibledeep_umbra
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149298 - 12/17/02 01:25 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Suppose that an exact copy of your brain was made and put into another body and your existing brain were destroyed.
1) Would "you" be in the new body, or would someone else (it would certainly think it was you, but is it)? and
2) If the old brain weren't destroyed, are there two you's?




they would be two different people unless you froze time and then copied the brains..

if you froze time and did it, there would be sorta like two multi-dimensional you's that interact on different planes of thought simutaneously through a fused ego that has been resequenced by inverting various multistrand nodes of the core subconcious to allow for new electromagnetic frequencies, this inturn would make the known universe implode


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Invisiblei am e goldstein
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149407 - 12/17/02 02:05 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1149442 - 12/17/02 02:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I (we) the essence am (are) consciousness, formless form

I don't get it. Could you rephrase it maybe?


My consciousness is not reliant on my brain for existance. Only it's current shape, it's responsible for keeping me alive in this context of reality. Without brain my consiousness will exist as pure awareness with nothing to shape it hence formless (no shape, awareness of all that is and isn't) form (consciousness is form) Described alternately as "(we) and (I) because we are all one consciousness, without the trappings of the brain.

At least that's the way I currently see it.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (12/17/02 02:19 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149479 - 12/17/02 02:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The premise behind your questions is a faulty one.

The brain is not synonymous with the mind.

Reductio ad absurdum.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1149494 - 12/17/02 02:36 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Reductio ad absurdum.

Why do phrases have more import when quoted in Latin?

Cogito ergo zoom.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1149516 - 12/17/02 02:43 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I've thought about the mind/brain duality problem for a long time.I think the mind creates the universe and the universe doesn't actually have any "existence" outside of it.I know almost nothing about philosophy.Is there a name for this belief?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1149555 - 12/17/02 03:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The brain is not synonymous with the mind.

Yes!  Precisely!!!  So if you create duplicate brains, have you created duplicate minds as well?  And are those minds ?you???  Or can only one of them be you???

I?m trying to bring the subject back to the original thread topic, which I believe was very deep:  "Do you believe that YOU are your brain".  Or are YOU your mind?  Or are YOU your soul?  What exactly are YOU????? (ok maybe I've expanded the original question a little)  :grin:   


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Murex]
    #1149651 - 12/17/02 03:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think its possible to completely lose one's ego and actually remember what happened.... I believe the act of "recording" something into memory requires the ego to organize and place the thoughts.. but hey I'm certainly not sure :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Nomad]
    #1149684 - 12/17/02 03:52 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

goooood point "Of course, that doesn't mean that your brain is created by your mind. In fact, your brain is created by my mind, too." hmmm... well.... to me... my brain is created by my mind... but i suppose to "me", everything is... hmm... i like this thread.


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1149703 - 12/17/02 03:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

But I do not exist.

Very nice answer. Please don't be offended if some of us do exist and know it.

There are several things I with with absolute certitude. My existence as an individual is one of them.




What I mean by that is that my belief is that the seperate "I" that we are all familiar with, is a delusion. Sure, there is indeed something in here that's self-aware, but I believe it to be an illusion. I can understand however, where your certitude that "you" exist comes from... i think that the self is the ego is a delusion, but that's just me... i think you're the type of person that could present a clear, logical case against what i'm saying though, and i'd be quite interested to hear it...


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149835 - 12/17/02 04:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"What exactly are YOU?????"

Well I could answer that. Just not satisfactorly under the context of this thread...but I can come as close as i can. :smile:

*I* (or you) equals subjectivity and will. These are the things that would need to get transported into the my duplicate mind if you destroy my original body. So I definetly would be transported if these conditions were met.
I think We will never know with certainty whether Subjective experience is an emergent phenomina of the brain untill we can explain HOW the brain creates our perception of anything at all. BUt if someone destroys a certain part of my occiptal lobe, not only will I be unable to percieve color but I will be unable to *think* of color. I dont know about you, but that implies to me that my cortex is somehow responsible for the color in my thoughts and hence, in my mind and what I subjectively experience. I am not a neuroscientist (in a dream perhaps...) so i do not know how far this actually goes. From what ive read and heard...the connection between the brain and the mind go pretty far.

(i hope the above is legible. Please tell me if it isnt.)   

I?m trying to bring the subject back to the original thread topic
Than you. You did expand a bit. 

 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1149922 - 12/17/02 05:35 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Individuality is an illusion. "You" don't exist, and neither do "I." That's just your ego getting in the way of the truth. In reality, all is one.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1149975 - 12/17/02 05:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Individuality is an illusion. "You" don't exist, and neither do "I." That's just your ego getting in the way of the truth. In reality, all is one.

Uhhhh, ok.  Care to back up what you just said with ANY kind of reasoning?  How did you come to that conclusion?  :confused: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1149985 - 12/17/02 06:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Bummer Goldstien!  I was really interested to hear how "energy" has anything to do with this!  :smirk: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisiblei am e goldstein
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1150313 - 12/17/02 09:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


Edited by i am e goldstein (12/17/02 09:10 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Swami]
    #1150389 - 12/17/02 10:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I only have time for one answer on this one so it might as well be yours.

The desiderata resides in the id quo not the id quod or as some have said being qua being. If this is clear we can proceed.


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OfflineLucidDreams
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1150441 - 12/17/02 11:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Suppose that an exact copy of your brain was made and put into another body and your existing brain were destroyed.
1) Would "you" be in the new body, or would someone else (it would certainly think it was you, but is it)? and
2) If the old brain weren't destroyed, are there two you's?

1. Yes, I would be in the new body since I am in every body in this planet, no exclusions!
2. No, there is only One - this idea of a separate self is just an illusion.
No man is an island. (though since its a very persistent illusion, IT IS ALSO real - but only in the context of ego-based life)
Our separateness is wonderful and has created many beautiful things..
The whole "meaning " of this creation, is to have the separateness in order to see ourself from "the outside"...


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OfflineJanUa
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1150541 - 12/18/02 01:56 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

we are what we think ... we are the imagination of ourself ... yes, we act our brains ... BUT ... we ARE just energy ... shut of the brain ...

... don't THINK ... BE ...


--------------------
... in SiLenCe we are ... 3? ...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1150562 - 12/18/02 02:13 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Suppose that an exact copy of your brain was made and put into another body and your existing brain were destroyed.

Have you gone to see "The Hot Chick?"

The answer is mostly yes, if all previous memories were preserved. Basically, "we" are the software overlaid on the hardware. Does Windows 2000 crash the same way on one Compaq 8000 model as on another with the same configuration? Yes!

The mostly comes in, in that a good part of our self perception is our body, so if the body were different, "we" would be different.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: ]
    #1150563 - 12/18/02 02:15 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The desiderata resides in the id quo not the id quod

"Go placidly amid the noise and haste. Find what peace there may be in Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia"

Non sequitarium absurdum.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (12/18/02 02:16 AM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1150631 - 12/18/02 03:18 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

this idea of a separate self is just an illusion

Uhhhh, ok. That's the same answer Silversoul gave.  Care to back up what you just said with ANY kind of reasoning? How did you come to that conclusion?  :confused: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1150683 - 12/18/02 03:52 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for taking another shot at explaining why you believe you are more energy than mind.  I think you made it clear at the end of the post:

as an individual, i am my mind....
as a creature of the world, i'm energy... by the way, i believe this is the nature of the "soul" that is always referred to by one group or another....


Let me see if I got your conclusion correct - that the ?you? is just an illusion and that we are really all one???  :tongue: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: Swami]
    #1151581 - 12/18/02 09:54 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The answer is mostly yes, blah... blah... blah... Windows 2000... blah... blah... blah... Compaq 8000... blah... blah... configuration? Yes!

the computer scientist inside you is talking way too much, shut the fucker up


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151732 - 12/18/02 10:41 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I read this book on Zen that explained it this way: "If we could look at an apple at a submicroscopic level, the line between what is 'apple' and what is 'non-apple' would disappear." In other words, all things are essentially of the same substance. There is no actual barrier between you and the rest of the world except the imaginary one created by your ego. So I guess, in a sense, I would say that I am my ego.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1152170 - 12/18/02 01:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Plenty of errors occur when people talk about this subject and not the least of them holding to an extreme position.

Descartes and Plato were convinced of different kinds of dualism; Plato with the Body Soul and Descartes with the Mind Body. Both were incorrect.

The other error seen in extreme form today is materialistic monism which I think the author might be intimating. It is also incorrect.

But both errors can be corrected with philosophic research. Unfortunately most people do not even know where to begin that.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1165896 - 12/23/02 08:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I just saw this really cool show on the Discovery Science channel that was all about the workings of the brain.  It had one really interesting example that fits perfectly with this thread!

There was this incredibly smart lady who suffered from a massive hemmorage (sp?) on the left side of her brain.  Before the hemmorage, she had been right-handed, meaning she was predominately controlled by the left side of the brain.  This meant that she was a very logical, rational thinker and an analytical person.

After the hemmorage, though, her brain was forced to start using the right hemisphere instead.  She became very creative and artistic and started focusing a lot more on art and music, instead of her previous focus on science.  (She was actually a student at Harvard studying to become a neurosurgeon!)

She said she really feels like she is a different person leading a different life now, all because she is using a different part of her brain.  She actually referred to "the lady before the hemmorage" as if she were a different person, not her at all!

I just thought that was really interesting and relevant to this thread! :smile:

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1165897 - 12/23/02 08:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Shhhh I'm reading


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InvisibleThe_Clash_UK
Day Tripper
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,000
Loc: UK
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1166839 - 12/24/02 06:48 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

im the soul filtered through an ego


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Crash a cig guvnor?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Do you belive you are your brain? [Re: raytrace]
    #1168465 - 12/24/02 06:16 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You make people rant, ever wonder why Swami ?

...shut the fucker up


I guess because I don't use harsh enough language like yourself?



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The proof is in the pudding.


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