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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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 Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind...  [Re: Jellric]
#2148620 - 12/01/03 05:16 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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For some reason last night, when I went to bed, I felt this sort of depression wash over me, one that I haven't felt for quite some time. I don't even know what caused it, but I ended up having to take some time to not let it take over my mind... Just thoughts about how pointless it all is and that it just keeps going on and on, there is no end....
I acknowledged it and didn't let it take over me, and tried to get some sleep... I didn't have a very pleasant sleep last night, but I feel better now. 
All things pass if you desire to let them...
Peace.
--------------------
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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 Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: fireworks_god]
#2149162 - 12/01/03 10:58 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, I've had that also. Not so often these days, but it does happen. I find, for me, that it's usually the result of pent-up energy needing to be released. All living creatures build up and release energy. Animals in the wild when they feel that energy build up, run around, play with other animals, or go hunting- they do it automatically. Us human critters, on the other hand, can consciously choose how to release or( and here's the key) forget to! If you don't release it by channeling it positively though a creative endeavor, exercise, whatever..it backs up on you and is experienced negatively.
 Cheers!
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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
#2149610 - 12/01/03 02:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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>> Meditation is an altered state of conciousness
where control is relenquished, much like with drugs
The objective of meditation is to first observe the mind's mechanics, understand it's nature and the nature of our thoughts and their effects, and then skillfully acquire control. Not relinquish it.
>> It's easy in such a state to experience extreeme
terror and despair and then experience a Post Traumatic
Stress Disorder afterwards with the memory strongly
impinted in your mind.
This is what happens when we enter deep and profound practice without correct preparation, and have no suitable container for the experience. In Buddhism, we practice sutra to construct such a container. We then fill it with our experience of the tantras.
>> Also, even with a relatively
quiet mind, thoughts will inevitably arise (they
need to for us to function in this world), but
since the mind is quiet most of the time those thoughts
will have a pronounced affect.
A mind is quiet because it has come to understand it's own experience. Before we can quiet our minds, we must first train ourselves not to be preturbed appearances to mind, understanding that they are the result of our past misguided thoughts and actions.
>> So one may suddenly
"realize" that life is a miserable affair and be
profoundly affected by it.
With a correct view, this is a desirable effect.
>>meditation
involves observing thought, and not counteracting
or reacting in any way
Meditation invovles observing a thought correctly, and answering it or reacting to it in a way that guides us toward happiness.
>> Contemporary New-Ageism advocates Meditation as a panacea,
but I think it has great potential for harm...
Meditation can bring harmful results without proper instruction. If the criteria described here constitutes Contemporary New-Age meditation, then this statement is absolutely correct.
--------------------
 Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Ped]
#2149695 - 12/01/03 02:39 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just to clarify, the post Ped is quoting is not mine. Lucid was the originator of this thread, of course.
I agree overall with Ped, with the exception of the word "acquire control" below. But that's probably just the limitation of words more than anything.
The objective of meditation is to first observe the mind's mechanics, understand it's nature and the nature of our thoughts and their effects, and then skillfully acquire control.
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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Ped]
#2149711 - 12/01/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Much thanks for all the thoughtful replies 
Ped, u said:
"Meditation invovles observing a thought correctly, and answering it or reacting to it in a way that guides us toward happiness"
In all the meditation books I've read (and I've read a few),
they always advocate simply observing the hought and not
"answering it or reacting to it" in any way...
please elucidate
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
#2149717 - 12/01/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jellric said:
Just to clarify, the post Ped is quoting is not mine. Lucid was the originator of this thread, of course.
I agree overall with Ped, with the exception of the word "acquire control" below. But that's probably just the limitation of words more than anything.
The objective of meditation is to first observe the mind's mechanics, understand it's nature and the nature of our thoughts and their effects, and then skillfully acquire control.
yup, I was wondering about that phrase too...
my understanding is that control must be relenquished...
--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 10 months, 19 days
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
#2149722 - 12/01/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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The meditation/psychosis thing got some media exposure about a year ago. I couldn't find many links, but I came up with a few:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
That's just the PubMed listing for a paper on the topic... you'd have to pay for the service or find a scientist with a subscription for the whole thing...
And a news article...
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing23.html
There are, as well, many anecdotes of people who suffered from schizophrenia using meditation sucessful in coping with their illness. LSD therapy has also been sucessful in treating schizophrenia. I think there's a transcribed book on lycaeum.org that has some cases in it, it's a good read if you can find it.
I found one site that warned strongly against doing any meditation at all if one is schizophrenic. It didn't seem like the guy knew what he was talking about though, check it out:
http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/faq006.html
--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
#2149727 - 12/01/03 02:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
The meditation/psychosis thing got some media exposure about a year ago. I couldn't find many links, but I came up with a few:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
That's just the PubMed listing for a paper on the topic... you'd have to pay for the service or find a scientist with a subscription for the whole thing...
And a news article...
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing23.html
There are, as well, many anecdotes of people who suffered from schizophrenia using meditation sucessful in coping with their illness. LSD therapy has also been sucessful in treating schizophrenia. I think there's a transcribed book on lycaeum.org that has some cases in it, it's a good read if you can find it.
I found one site that warned strongly against doing any meditation at all if one is schizophrenic. It didn't seem like the guy knew what he was talking about though, check it out:
http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/faq006.html
Dang, those are quite convincing 
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
#2149736 - 12/01/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
That's just the PubMed listing for a paper on the topic... you'd have to pay for the service or find a scientist with a subscription for the whole thing...
If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do...
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
#2149745 - 12/01/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you are are feeling unhappy in meditation, then your mind is not free from thoughts or the dichotomy of happy/unhappy. Your emotional state is just as mental as more conscious thoughts and you must learn to transcend it and be free of it as well.
In total Samsara there can be no comfort or discomfort. I think your realization is to show you that you are not there yet.
As goes the old proverb, "If you see the Buddha, kill him." It doesn't matter if the Buddha you see is pleasant or unpleasant, it is a thought like any other and it is holding you back. I find the more I meditate life seems like one of those dreams in which you keep waking up again and again. With each new awereness the last will fall away as an illusion.
And as others have said, in meditation the goal is to be free from the mind, but not to absolve it. We have thoughts for a reason, but we are to master them, and not they us.
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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada 
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 Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
#2149746 - 12/01/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do...
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med?
--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
#2149757 - 12/01/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
FreakQlibrium said:
If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do...
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med?
a "prescription" for Club Med is probably what I need
--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
#2149758 - 12/01/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
FreakQlibrium said:
If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do...
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med?
a "prescription" for Club Med is probably what I need
--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
#2149761 - 12/01/03 03:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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What do u folks think about the article Phluck posted ?
They seem to have significant statistical data to back
up their claim...
--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
#2149768 - 12/01/03 03:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
lucid said:
Quote:
FreakQlibrium said:
If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do...
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med?
a "prescription" for Club Med is probably what I need
From my understanding i just assumed you already had one
--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
#2149803 - 12/01/03 03:29 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sorry Jellric -- I usually use the QuickReply block at the bottom of the screen, which just associates the post with the most recent reply.
>> In all the meditation books I've read (and I've read a few),
they always advocate simply observing the hought and not
"answering it or reacting to it" in any way...
Becoming detached from thought and deliberately avoiding engagement with the tempting paths of contemplation our mind constantly offers us is an excellent means of acquiring the focus necessary to begin placement or visualization meditations as outlined in the sutras and tantras. If we cannot remain steady on our object of meditation, if we are continuously engaging useless thoughts about our experience of the weather, or memories of an entertaining movie -- we cannot progress with applied practice. Not answering and not reacting to our thoughts in meditation serves as an excellent preamble to focused practice.
>> If you are are feeling unhappy in meditation, then your mind is not free from thoughts or the dichotomy of happy/unhappy. Your emotional state is just as mental as more conscious thoughts and you must learn to transcend it and be free of it as well.
We accomplish this with meditation. Unhappy thoughts and feelings in meditation will act as an obstacle to the attainment you've described. Since a profound break from the incorret view of happiness and unhappiness requires a great degree of study and placement, we must first cultivate a sense of acceptance. We learn to regard ourselves as an imperfect being with various sufferings and afflictions that we are not content with. We accept that the wish to be free from these afflictions stems from a more desirable nature, and abide here through all our practice. This is called refuge.
>> In total Samsara there can be no comfort or discomfort.
What do you mean by this? My notion of Samsara has been that there can only be fleeting and temporary comfort, and ongoing discomfort -- the desire for happiness and contentment forever unsatiated.
>> As goes the old proverb, "If you see the Buddha, kill him." It doesn't matter if the Buddha you see is pleasant or unpleasant, it is a thought like any other and it is holding you back.
This is a delightful point. My teacher has said to his disciples many times: "Even if a thousand dancing Buddha's should appear before you, focus only on your object of meditation."
>> I find the more I meditate life seems like one of those dreams in which you keep waking up again and again. With each new awereness the last will fall away as an illusion.
I am happy for you. Good luck!
--------------------
Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 10 months, 19 days
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
#2149876 - 12/01/03 04:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't get too carried away, it doesn't mean that there's significant danger in meditating, it just means that it's a real risk. If you're not afraid of psychedelic drugs, there's no need to be afraid of meditation.
--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Bhairabas
Stranger
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
#2149888 - 12/01/03 04:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I woudn't blame meditation for you own insecurity's.. It sounds like it showed you an aspect of your self you didn't want to see.. You can either run away from your problems or confront them.. Is not meditating actualy going to make your problems go away or are you just going to be less aware of them..
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
#2149891 - 12/01/03 04:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
If you're not afraid of psychedelic drugs, there's no need to be afraid of meditation.
I'm kinda terrified of psychedelics, I had a really
awful shroom-trip about 9 months ago which is why
I'm here...
(9 months, damn ! it's time for rebirth )
--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 10 months, 19 days
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Bhairabas]
#2149898 - 12/01/03 04:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Me?
--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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