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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13513842 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Got it good?  By whose standard?


Either.  Dont make the mistake of using one culture's metric to judge another culture's way of life.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: DieCommie]
    #13514134 -

If you're saying Native Americans on reservations have it good you are, by implication, comparing them to your standard that must be derived from what you know.  I don't think its too much of a stretch to say that would be white society.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: DieCommie]
    #13514249 -

DieCommie said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Got it good?  By whose standard?


Either.  Dont make the mistake of using one culture's metric to judge another culture's way of life.


What does this mean? Are you implying that Indians have it good by their standards?

They live in prisoner of war camps ("Reservations") that were created on infertile land. Nearly all the bison on their land were killed, their woman were raped, and White people broke every treaty they ever signed with the Indians.

1863 the largest mass execution in American history took place. Lincoln ordered 38 Indians executed two days after signing the emancipation proclamation.

1890 Sioux village with over 300 Indians (woman and children included) were surrounded and killed with using the hotchkiss gun. Twenty Congressional Medals of Honor for Valor were given to the 7th Calvary for their incredible ability to slaughter so many innocent woman and children. This is more than any other battle in US history. (Yes, this includes Vietnam, world wars 1 and 2, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan)

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13514429 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
laserpig said:
Yes, let us puzzle over this, who was in the wrong, when an invading horde slaughtered people on land their ancestors had lived in for generations, then forced the survivors to live on reservation territory. What a moral dilemma!


In your moral indignation you failed to address my serious counterpoint. No surprise there.

If your ancestors were not bad-ass takers, it is extremely unlikely you would be here to moan about injustice.


That is entirely irrelevant. There is a difference between causality and morality. Yes, the destruction of Native American civilization is one of the infinite number of causes which gave me the life I have, but so what? The holocaust is why Israel exists, does that mean the holocaust was morally justified? Stupidest argument I ever heard.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: laserpig]
    #13514480 -

Quote:
does that mean the holocaust was morally justified?


From whose perspective? Is the male lion that takes over a pride and drives the smaller males out and kills the cubs, immoral?

The Native Americans that were alive at the time the Whites came, had subdued many of the large predators in their area as well as earlier weaker tribes. Thus is life.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13514510 -

Again, irrelevant. We are talking about the specific act of slaughtering a people on their own land and driving them to live on what are essentially large concentration camps. That is immoral. Period. Could the natives themselves have done something immoral, at some other time in the past? Surely. Immorality is common in human history. So what? Five wrongs make a right? That's pure garbage.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: laserpig]
    #13514561 -

Auto-Summary
Recent archaeological discoveries in North and South America challenge the belief that humans first arrived on the continent as early as forty thousand years ago. New evidence suggests that the first humans arrived approximately seven thousand years ago, with evidence from sites in the eastern United States, South America, and even areas now underwater. One significant finding is the presence of cave paintings in Brazil that predate the last Ice Age and skulls with Negroid features, suggesting that Aboriginal people may have migrated to the Americas before the arrival of the Clovis people. This discovery contradicts the notion that modern Native Americans are descendants of Asian populations and reveals a history of violent conflicts and human rights atrocities among these ancient peoples.

Morality ALWAYS depends on persepective, it is hardly an absolute as you seem to believe.

Many authorities now believe that humans first walked here as long as forty thousand years ago.
  Discoveries of skeletal remains in both North and South America in the last several years have shattered this thesis, however. Many authorities now believe that humans first walked here as long as forty thousand years ago.

  Evidence for this comes from sites scattered across the eastern United States as well as South America. For example, Al Goodyear, an archaeologist with the University of South Carolina, recently discovered tools buried in a site near the Savannah River, which clearly predate the arrival of the Clovis people. Similar findings have been made in Cactus Hill, Virginia, Meadowcraft Rockshelter in western Pennsylvania, Monte Verde in Chile, as well as Brazil. Artifacts have been found in areas now covered by the waters of the Pacific Ocean.7 Remains of an individual known as the Kennewick Man, which were found on the shores of the Columbia River in 1996 in Washington state, have been shown to be over nine thousand years old. Many scientists believe that this person may have been Polynesian or even European in origin, and wish to conduct DNA tests to find out. (Interestingly, local Native Americans oppose the tests, and demand that the remains be turned over to them for burial.)8

  Of particular significance is a group of archaeological findings in Brazil, around the area of Serra De Capivara. There scientists have found cave paintings which predate the last Ice Age. In addition they unearthed a number of well-preserved skulls from this time period. One is that of a young lady, whom researchers have named Lucia, or Lucy. They used a CAT scan to reconstruct her facial features from her remains. Then a forensic artist, Richard Neave from the UK's Manchester University, recreated the appearance of her face. The results were shocking. Rather than being Mongoloid, it has all the characteristics of being Negroid. It most closely resembles the faces of the natives of Australia, the Aborigines. These people left Africa about one hundred thousand years ago. It is believed by Walter Neaves, an archaeologist at the University of Sâo Paulo in Brazil, as well as Grahame Walsh, an expert in ancient Australian rock art, that aboriginal people actually made trans-Pacific journeys to the Americas prior to the arrival of the Clovis people.9

  Drawings of boats by ancient aboriginal artists support this thesis. They are shown as having a very high prow. Such an innovation would have been unnecessary in calm inland waters, but absolutely essential to an ocean journey.10 (By the way, the contention that primitive people in small, simple craft could not have crossed the ocean is demonstrably false. In 1969, European researcher and adventurer Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic in a boat made from papyrus reeds, a journey of 3,300 nautical miles.)11

  Unlike contemporary Indians, these fossilized remains bear no resemblance to modern Mongoloid people. That fact is vitally important to the point of this article. Genetic and other testing long ago proved that the Cherokees, Navajo, Creek, and other tribes are descendants of Asian population groups.12 In light of recent evidence, their claims to be the “original” Americans rests on faulty ground indeed.

  Even more disturbing for the PC crowd is what the rock art of these “Australian Americans” record. Cave paintings made at the same time that Asiatic people begin to appear in the region show scenes that are radically different from those made prior to their arrival. Images of serene and playful village life give way to drawings of executions, warfare and outright slaughter, scenes that only appear after the arrival of the Asiatics. These drawings correspond to discoveries of skulls in the fossil record that for the first time show Mongoloid characteristics.

  The inference is clear: When the Asians began to arrive in the area, they began a bloody and violent crusade against the people already living there. This genocidal campaign continued until the aboriginal people disappeared from the fossil record. From nine thousand to seven thousand years ago the skeletal remains shifted from being exclusively Negroid to exclusively Mongoloid. Combined with the bloody scenes appearing in the cave paintings at the time, the fossil records reveal a disturbing fact: The true first Americans were wiped out by the people who now claim that title.13



What we know of "Native" American history reveals a series of what today would be called human rights atrocities.
  These findings drive the final nail in the coffin of the image of Indians cultivated by the politically correct. These people are not the gentle lovers of the land films such as Pocahontas would have one believe. What we know of “Native” American history reveals a series of what today would be called human rights atrocities. The ancient Aztecs practiced human sacrifice. Tribes in the Northwest, as well as the Iroquois people, practiced slavery. Others were cannibals.14 Many were abusive to their wives and children. Inter-tribal warfare was common. The author has visited and camped on Blood Mountain in northern Georgia, named after a vicious battle fought there centuries ago between the Creek and Cherokees. When examined in the light of the evidence, any moral superiority attributed to the pre-Columbus inhabitants of these shores is revealed as fiction.



And whatever you do, be sure to completely overlook The Beaver Wars wherein Indians killed more Indians than all the subsequent attacks by Whites.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13514589 -

FUCKING. IRRELEVANT.

Is it or is it not immoral to slaughter people?

I don't care if those people's ancestors slaughtered other people. That was immoral too!
Why do you insist that it is morally justified to slaughter a people, so long as that people at some point in their history slaughtered someone else?
If China staged a massive bombing campaign against US civilian targets, would that be morally justified, just because the US took land from the indians? You aren't even trying to use your brain here, are you?


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #13514606 -

I think the point here is that everyone has been fucked over by everyone else at some point and there ain't no use in crying over it if it didn't happen to you personally...even then. 

As I said previously-

Impermanence.


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What's up everybody?!

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: laserpig] * 1
    #13514630 -

Quote:
Is it or is it not immoral to slaughter people?


From whose perspective? The slaughterers obviously did not think so.

Is it immoral to get enraged over a civil discussion? Yes.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Cups]
    #13514731 -

Cups said:
I think the point here is that everyone has been fucked over by everyone else at some point and there ain't no use in crying over it if it didn't happen to you personally...even then. 

As I said previously-

Impermanence.



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Icelander]
    #13514773 -

I always look forward to your deep and well-thought contributions. :thumbup:


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: laserpig]
    #13514828 -

laserpig said:
FUCKING. IRRELEVANT.

Is it or is it not immoral to slaughter people?

I don't care if those people's ancestors slaughtered other people. That was immoral too!
Why do you insist that it is morally justified to slaughter a people, so long as that people at some point in their history slaughtered someone else?
If China staged a massive bombing campaign against US civilian targets, would that be morally justified, just because the US took land from the indians? You aren't even trying to use your brain here, are you?


Dude, don't pay it any mind.

OC represents the thesis that power justifies itself, a conveniently self evident logic by any example.

But notice how he only points at other people to justify his logic...for "perspectives" :lol:

Gee, I wonder what's going on here?

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: daytripper23] * 1
    #13514856 -

So you do not have a point. Neither you nor LP have made a case other than emotionalism. :congrats:


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13514957 -

It's not "emotionalism," it is a single extremely simple question: is it wrong to murder people? You obviously think the answer is no, which means, really, that you're not talking about morality. Efficacy? Sure. Murder gets shit done. That was not the question.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: laserpig]
    #13515120 -

Here we go again. You made a flat statement with zero backing. It is not my job to shore up your position.

All you have done is state your opinion as if everyone should share it.

Seeing as how ALL morals are cultural affectations and change over time and place, there is no ultimate objective morality.

The End.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: laserpig]
    #13515192 -

You can certainly have objectively determined morals.  That many use morals as some perverse synonym for "personal whims" is not really of consequence.  For instance, I believe it is immoral to frustrate someone's rights and righteous conduct.  This seems pretty objectively defined if you grant the right to person, property, mind, and associations as many have and continue to do as an extension of sentience.  In such a scheme, it is not culturally relevant to make a moral determination to the extent I can see.  This is how I view moral matters.


laserpig said:
Again, irrelevant. We are talking about the specific act of slaughtering a people on their own land and driving them to live on what are essentially large concentration camps. That is immoral. Period. Could the natives themselves have done something immoral, at some other time in the past? Surely. Immorality is common in human history. So what? Five wrongs make a right? That's pure garbage.


Well, there's a long history here, but if you look at colonial america, do you still share these views?  Seems to me that if you neglect the issue of who owned the land, yoru description of bad acts could apply to everyone (excluding the concentration camp thing which doesn't apply to either).  That one side was more succesful doesn't seem relevant except to the extent they got to pursue their unjust policies more completely.

As to the issue of whos land it is, I don't know, that's more difficult.  Sounds like a myth to me, but I've heard it said by those who favor the indian side that they didn't buy the concept of land ownership- don't know if its true. 

Ignoring this question though, I do have some difficulty in concluding that even if it was the native's land that this is relevant to the sons.  I certainly feel not obliged to give anything to the natives, and I wonder whether those american born, native or otherwise, have any particular claim to ownership by virtue of ethnicity?

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13515194 -

Once upon a time feelsgoodman went to the store, and did thangs. :feelsgoodman:


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Re: POLL: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Cups]
    #13515346 -

Cups said:
Impermanence. 

Knowing this...Be still.


But ofcourse :thumbup:

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13515595 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here we go again. You made a flat statement with zero backing. It is not my job to shore up your position.

All you have done is state your opinion as if everyone should share it.

Seeing as how ALL morals are cultural affectations and change over time and place, there is no ultimate objective morality.

The End.



You don't really want me to drag poor ol' Plato into this again, do you? :wink:


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