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Are we infinite and timeless beings?
    #13026000 -

Or are we timebound?

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13026038 -

there is no surviving we to be time-bound or infinite imo

that said, all-that-is is not timebound imo (no beginning, no end)

as mental continuums i also think we lack beginning or end, like an infinite progression of chain reactions stretching backwards and forwards - but as a discrete illusion of being an entity, this is time-bound, always changing


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13026077 -

So, given that conciousness is, and is never Was or Will be. i.e. the eternal present. How does one find comfort in this knowing that at one point our awareness began and at an eventual point it will end. It seems we find comfort in awareness of our conciousness. But we can also think back far enough and relate our earliest memories to conciousness. Though, there were at least two or three years where we had conciousness and awareness but without memory or attachment.
All this is kind of fuzzy to me.
But the point I'm getting at, is that if we are pure conciousness, how can we find comfort in being eternal conciousness if we are not aware of it?
Like, if I die and my concious enegergy emerges again centuries down the road, and I start over as an infant, I don't suspect I get to retain any former knowledge. So, it seems there's no advantage to it. It's more like a cosmic prank than a blessing.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13026124 -

yes, rebirth is not a blessing - it's quite unfortunate

we keep repeating the same cyclical journey, losing everyone and everything, suffering great pains, and have been for eternity with absolutely nothing to show for it (according to rebirth theory)

from this view, there was never a first time we died... every death has been preceded by infinite prior deaths - we've been through wars, famines, lived as animals and been eaten alive, gone through hell realms, spirit realms, been gods and celestial beings only to lose it all and fall back deeper into the ocean, over and over again, etc

buddha taught that since we've had infinite past lives, we've all been each others' mothers countless times. he also taught that if we collected all the tears we've shed from losing loved ones, they'd easily trump all the oceans on the planet - as would the amount of molten lead we've swallowed in hot hells :undecided:

as soon as we're born, fears begin to surface for that life - fear of war, fear of old age, fear of sickness, fear of death, etc. - there's a lot that can go wrong here in samsara

when one contemplates rebirth, infinite lives, the amazingly rare opportunity of being born as a human - seeking liberation from birth-and-death becomes a very obvious necessity imo. i certainly don't want to have to do this again, let alone trillions of times - so it's definitely not a blessing, though some people are attached to the notion of being to the point that they think future lives are great, i'm more on the side of non-being (peace, void) on this one.

it's said that when one fully awakens they remember their entire infinite string of past lives. that's the only moment really when all the struggles we pushed through are fully recalled i guess. it all seems unnecessary to me, it would have been much nicer if we were all enlightened from the beginning for sure. so much needless suffering all for absolutely nothing :undecided: - but at least there's an end to it (third noble truth :laugh:)

to liberate one being is to liberate infinite beings :sun:


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13026152 -

in siddartha they listen to the river and realize time does not exist


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If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #13026217 -

All these thoughts arose while on vacation. I took the fam on a cave tour. The guide told us that the avg growth rate of the flowstone was one cubic inche  per 300 years....

Some of the stalagtites were 20ft long. The cave has patience that I do not posess. To be satisfied with 1 inch of growth over the time span that multiple generations live and die. I began to think about what I have not seen and what I will miss by being a mortal.

I think it was the first time I truly realize how attached I am to this life.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13026845 -

the cave also isn't conscious :rastamon:


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If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13026878 -


deff said:
yes, rebirth is not a blessing - it's quite unfortunate

we keep repeating the same cyclical journey, losing everyone and everything, suffering great pains, and have been for eternity with absolutely nothing to show for it (according to rebirth theory)

from this view, there was never a first time we died... every death has been preceded by infinite prior deaths - we've been through wars, famines, lived as animals and been eaten alive, gone through hell realms, spirit realms, been gods and celestial beings only to lose it all and fall back deeper into the ocean, over and over again, etc

buddha taught that since we've had infinite past lives, we've all been each others' mothers countless times. he also taught that if we collected all the tears we've shed from losing loved ones, they'd easily trump all the oceans on the planet - as would the amount of molten lead we've swallowed in hot hells :undecided:

as soon as we're born, fears begin to surface for that life - fear of war, fear of old age, fear of sickness, fear of death, etc. - there's a lot that can go wrong here in samsara

when one contemplates rebirth, infinite lives, the amazingly rare opportunity of being born as a human - seeking liberation from birth-and-death becomes a very obvious necessity imo. i certainly don't want to have to do this again, let alone trillions of times - so it's definitely not a blessing, though some people are attached to the notion of being to the point that they think future lives are great, i'm more on the side of non-being (peace, void) on this one.

it's said that when one fully awakens they remember their entire infinite string of past lives. that's the only moment really when all the struggles we pushed through are fully recalled i guess. it all seems unnecessary to me, it would have been much nicer if we were all enlightened from the beginning for sure. so much needless suffering all for absolutely nothing :undecided: - but at least there's an end to it (third noble truth :laugh:)

to liberate one being is to liberate infinite beings :sun:



why do you think we are incapable of viewing past/future lives as egos? it seems that if we were aware of this dilemma than 99.9 percent of our problems could be solved.

instead we remain ignorant as to the before and after of this life...seems kind of BS...

i only ask because my only reason for believing past/future lives is faith...which is...empirically worthless.


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If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Edited by JackofSpades (08/09/10 02:21 PM)

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #13026938 -

^our bodily identification prevents us.

Personally I don't know about infinite past lives and all that, if samsara comes to an end than it must have had a beginning. Also, I don't think we have as much danger of falling back into hell realms as you might think...as long as your actions are virtuous your next reincarnation will probably be better imo.

And there is empirical logic behind reincarnation, I have my own physical theory of it involving quantum entanglement that I can expound if anybody's interested (it's on this forum somewhere). But even beyond the physical, if you believe that our consciousness is immaterial, and that it continues after death, then reincarnation is just common sense. Our body falls away, but desires eventually pull us back to a new one.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13027029 -

deff said:
yes, rebirth is not a blessing - it's quite unfortunate



I don't really agree with that outlook. How I see it is being human is one of an infinite amount of experiences the Universe chooses to experience itself. I believe we have a Soul, Higher Self - whatever label you want to give it - which consciously chose to incarnate into a specific time, to have a certain family, to meet certain people, to come across "by chance" certain ideas. All of this is for the sheer experience - for the soul to learn and grow, to add the I-personality to itSelf. Time is only relevant from our perspective, this dream we call life. There is no where "to go", as the Buddhists maintain (if I'm not misinterpreting the view). What you do in this life won't give you a better future incarnation. You are living all of your incarnations simultaneously, in the one eternal moment. You can connect to and learn from or teach these other "yous" as well, and even tap in your own soul, the orchestrator, through daily synchronicity, dreams, etc. Ultimately, I think the goal of the soul is the realize itself here on Earth. So for me it is not about "me" attaining Enlightenment, but rather allowing the Self to shine through me here on Earth.

So to answer the OP, Yes I believe we are infinite and timeless being. Lighten up!

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: g00ru]
    #13027072 -

guruu said:
...as long as your actions are virtuous your next reincarnation will probably be better imo.



I've often pondered the possibility of the latter part of my life being full of joy since the first 20 years of my life were pain, suffering and torment.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13027073 -

Time arises from change. Change is the essential activity from which things and beings arise. All things and beings are therefor bound by time, by change. There is no 'being' or 'thing' apart from change. Because of change there is coming and going, and therefor existing and non-existing.

I can't see how a 'being' or 'thing' could exist infinitely and timelessly. All being is finite due to the causes and conditions by which it is formed, and by which it will again dissolve. Cause and effect lies at the base of change. Change and time are inseparable.

Beings and things are time-bound imo.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #13027086 -

What about conciousness? Could you say the same for it? I'm convinced that awareness comes and goes, begins and ends, else we would remember other lives..

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13027131 -

Good question. I don't know. Consciousness is due to the mental activity. Without mental activity (for which a brain is needed), there is no mind, without mind there can be no consciousness i think. I believe that consciousness arises and dissolves in the same way all caused and conditioned 'existences' do. I may be wrong.

I can't remember past lives. But hey, who knows, the brain and memory are 'formed', so i can appreciate the argument that 'memories from past lives' are formed in the brain when it develops. It's deep water, that's for sure...

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #13027400 -

We see tangible things begin and end. Physical manifestations of the environment. Even the stalagtites in a cave, though thousands to millions of years old, at some point began. Perhaps an earthquate would be it's demise. Or an explorer with a hammer and chisel...

So, for things that seem to not be tangible, such as time, space, eternity, etc, these things we cannot say began or end.

Therefore it's easier for me to assume that conciousness as an intangible thing has no beginning or end. Perhaps if conciousness were the ocean our awareness and attachment to it would be the waves. Though inseperable, they are distinguishable. Not claming this to be the way it is, just getting my thoughts out there to better understand my question.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13027736 -

If you want to experience your true nature, attempt to induce an OBE. No more hoping for some saving grace after that - you're It. There is no end to you or your mind. Consciousness is what you are, it has nothing to do with the physical body.

The idea of infinite rebirths and hell dimensions obviously doesn't appeal much to me, I always think the Buddha was trying to teach something metaphorically or mythologically with such ideas and stories.

Personally I think the universe has a benevolent power guiding or watching over it. It is a benevolent agenda.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #13027842 -

Fraggin said:
We see tangible things begin and end. Physical manifestations of the environment. Even the stalagtites in a cave, though thousands to millions of years old, at some point began. Perhaps an earthquate would be it's demise. Or an explorer with a hammer and chisel...


really the cave didn't begin or end, as it didn't arise independently out of nothingness as a cave - instead it came into apparent formation through previous causes and materials which will exist after the 'cave' configuration dissolves into something new (such as through an earthquake)

so really, the "cave" is just a projection onto a flux of casual phenomena and doesn't really exist, so we can't say it has a beginning or an end - it's just a mental model

i think a same approach can be taken with the mind, that it's always changing form and is never static - and thus has no beginning or end - and since it's said to survive bodily death (according to many beliefs) this mental continuum goes on in a casual link life to life

i think saying there was a beginning to everything makes no sense personally. buddha taught that the only thing that could create a moment of consciousness was a preceding moment of consciousness, and thus there was no beginning. he looked infinitely far back into his mind and saw no start whatsoever, so he made this assertion.


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #13027899 -

JackofSpades said:
why do you think we are incapable of viewing past/future lives as egos? it seems that if we were aware of this dilemma than 99.9 percent of our problems could be solved.

instead we remain ignorant as to the before and after of this life...seems kind of BS...

i only ask because my only reason for believing past/future lives is faith...which is...empirically worthless.


most (almost all) of us are stuck in gross mind consciousness throughout our life (besides during sleep) and this gross mind dies with the body, so is only relational to events of this life. to access past life memories, one would need to be in subtler consciousness or have clairvoyance i imagine.

a neat question is where are past life memories stored anyways? in the past? heh


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13028001 -

deff said:
JackofSpades said:
why do you think we are incapable of viewing past/future lives as egos? it seems that if we were aware of this dilemma than 99.9 percent of our problems could be solved.

instead we remain ignorant as to the before and after of this life...seems kind of BS...

i only ask because my only reason for believing past/future lives is faith...which is...empirically worthless.


most (almost all) of us are stuck in gross mind consciousness throughout our life (besides during sleep) and this gross mind dies with the body, so is only relational to events of this life. to access past life memories, one would need to be in subtler consciousness or have clairvoyance i imagine.

a neat question is where are past life memories stored anyways? in the past? heh


Nice recourse to Wilber.

Freud had an interesting idea regarding where memories of past lives would be stored: genes. Although genes do not actually house "information" as many believe, in that they actually only produce proteins. It's possible that genes could exist for "past life memory expression." Freud called these genetic based primal memories "archaic remnants." This plays into Jung's notion of the collective unconscious, but takes a step away from the metaphysical, couching the idea in our biological makeup. As you know, Jung proposed the idea that the collective unconscious is the part of the human psyche that houses the archetypes, the everlasting images and motifs that human psychic life revolves around.

Another idea, that I know less about, seems crazier than Jung's is that of Ervin Laszlo, who postulated that an Akashic or A-field exists, and is the repository of the collective human memory and in-formation. The term comes from the Sanskrit Akasha, which is basically a medium that enfolds, underlies, and becomes all things. Laszlo appears to have extended this notion to deal with collective memory, past lives, and other quantum phenomena.

Interesting questions. Good stuff. :thumbup::thumbup: for this thread.


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No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13028167 -

deff said:
when one contemplates rebirth, infinite lives, the amazingly rare opportunity of being born as a human - seeking liberation from birth-and-death becomes a very obvious necessity imo. i certainly don't want to have to do this again, let alone trillions of times - so it's definitely not a blessing, though some people are attached to the notion of being to the point that they think future lives are great, i'm more on the side of non-being (peace, void) on this one.




when i think of this stuff i know that it is all happening all at once.

a future life is also your life right now.  you cannot get out of your future life unless you get out of this one. and the past ones. 

so to go from the cycle, if it exists, in my mind at least would mean to loose awareness of the cycle. complete disconnection. 

also seeking liberation from birth and death seems ridiculous.  How could the leaf caught in the eddy seek its way out?  It cannot, a wind must blow it or the current must change. 

i have thought about this stuff extensively but never read anything haha, so if this is stupid just lol.

if this cycle has existed it seems it has culminated in beings in the physical (you and me) realm talking about it and discussing it. 

what say you?

/rant


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