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Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test.
    #12215297 -

I'm not sure if this the right forum but this one seemed the most appropriate to me. This is the deal; I'm a 3rd year Medschool student and I have a test tomorrow about neurosciences/neuroanatomy/psychiatry. There's a question in an old exam where I disagree with what the answer form says. The question is as follows:

Quote:
You're a children's psychiatrist. During a consult you meet with a 16-year old boy who's hallucinating.

Of which mental function is this symptom (the hallucination) a disorder?
A. Consciousness
B. Rational thinking
C. Mental Orientation
D. Perception


According the answer form the correct answer should be D. In my opinion it should be A.

When I take a hallucinogenic drug, the external stimuli don't change, nor the way they are sent to my brain. The thing that does change is the way my brain interprets this stimuli; colors change, things take on different shapes etc. So the way I perceive things DOES change but I'm not hallucinating because my perception has changed. My experience does change and so my consciousness of the events taking place change.

Anyone care to point out the mistake in my though process or is there anyone that agrees with me? Please care to explain why you think it's either A or D.

Btw. I've never had hallucinations without eating shrooms but I don't think there's a difference.


--------------------
"Whenever I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story"
-Barney Stinson

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: WStallion]
    #12215342 -

E. for Existence


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: WStallion]
    #12215504 -

From what I understand, LSD effects the path between senses and the brain. This is why synthesia occurs.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: deCypher]
    #12215534 -

Isn't the general consensus that consciousness comes before perception? Which is to stay perception is dependent upon consciousness; existence before essence.

You and I can both be conscious of an event, but we may perceive it very differently, and you might declare that I am hallucinating because everyone you've spoken with perceives it as you do.




--------------------
:hamletmonkey:

Edited by Mnboardin (03/16/10 09:19 PM)

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: WStallion]
    #12215744 -

As I read the question, I thought, "A is a possibility" but by the time I got to D, I wrote A off and knew that D was the correct response.

Hallucinations in psychological literature are perceptual phenomena. They occur in one of the senses.
Hearing things that are not there.
Seeing things that are not there.
Feeling things that are not there.
etc.

And perception is the product of our brains. Nothing exists "out there" but light and vibration. Everything we perceive is the product of our brain. So perception IS altered by hallucinogens. Consciousness can be altered too.

And if you were to define consciousness in a way other than how neuropsych defines it, you could make an argument for it. But as neuropsych sees it, consciousness comes after the phenomena is perceived. I perceive it, and then I make a conscious decision of what to make of it. Sensory hallucinations therefore occur prior to any conscious decision making.

If its visual, the hallucination is expected to start in the visual areas of the brain (occipital lobe) which has a long ways to travel (and many other areas of the brain to interact with) before it ever hits conscious thought. This is true of all the areas associated with sense perception, it takes a bit before they reach conscious thought, and therefore it cannot be consciousness that is responsible for these perceptions. If that makes sense...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (03/16/10 09:52 PM)

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Kickle]
    #12215760 -

P.S. I think all of that is a bunch of speculation on neuropsychs part :shrug:
The question really is a "best guess" and nothing is certain at all.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Kickle]
    #12215766 -

god, can't neuroscience just catch up already


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: deCypher]
    #12215779 -

catch up?
To what? To who?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Kickle]
    #12215788 -

:etjesus: knows All cognitive science, psychology, and neurology.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: deCypher]
    #12215801 -

:ilold:

How could I forget about ET Jesus?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: WStallion]
    #12215961 -

just answer as they want you to and pass, don't argue.
clearly they do not comprehend either consciousness or perception.

IMO consciousness is the closer match,
perception is about recognition and memory:
some of hallucination is from memory objects overlaying sensory mental objects,
but all of hallucination is happening because consciousness has become altered - layered,
because signal fading is slowed down making moments persist so that layering occurs.
this is obvious, but the terms in psychiatry are still encumbered with Victorian age inaccuracies.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #12215981 -

because signal fading is slowed down making moments persist so that layering occurs.

:strokebeard:
What makes you say this?
I mean, I really like the idea, overlapping signals and all, but how do you propose this happens?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Kickle]
    #12217097 -

every signal in the brain is not one pulse but a series of pulses with decreasing amplitude.
various conditions in the brain will extend the duration of this series of pulses (the signal fadeout)
one of these is extra serotonin in the synapse area.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Kickle]
    #12217123 -

Kickle said:
As I read the question, I thought, "A is a possibility" but by the time I got to D, I wrote A off and knew that D was the correct response.

Hallucinations in psychological literature are perceptual phenomena. They occur in one of the senses.
Hearing things that are not there.
Seeing things that are not there.
Feeling things that are not there.
etc.

And perception is the product of our brains. Nothing exists "out there" but light and vibration. Everything we perceive is the product of our brain. So perception IS altered by hallucinogens. Consciousness can be altered too.

And if you were to define consciousness in a way other than how neuropsych defines it, you could make an argument for it. But as neuropsych sees it, consciousness comes after the phenomena is perceived. I perceive it, and then I make a conscious decision of what to make of it. Sensory hallucinations therefore occur prior to any conscious decision making.

If its visual, the hallucination is expected to start in the visual areas of the brain (occipital lobe) which has a long ways to travel (and many other areas of the brain to interact with) before it ever hits conscious thought. This is true of all the areas associated with sense perception, it takes a bit before they reach conscious thought, and therefore it cannot be consciousness that is responsible for these perceptions. If that makes sense...


QFT, Good job beating me to it!


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: WStallion]
    #12217208 -

Quote:
You're a children's psychiatrist. During a consult you meet with a 16-year old boy who's hallucinating.

Of which mental function is this symptom (the hallucination) a disorder?
A. Consciousness
B. Rational thinking
C. Mental Orientation
D. Perception


the relationship between these disconnected ideas is inconsistent, so it is impossible to choose except by rote.

maybe if a few attributes are assigned it will help to understand where I am coming from:

A. Consciousness
is ongoing encompassing or all inclusive - opposed to unconsciousness (being turned off) - yet consciousness is professionally arbitrated (or clouded IMO) by the concept of subconsciousness - as if subconsciousness even exists (Note: while memory does exist, subconsciousness may not, ts has never been isolated experimentally in the same way that god has not been isolated experimentally)

B. Rational thinking
is either 1. any healthy (sane) mental operation, 2. ratiocination (thinking in words), or 3. logical thinking (idea marshaling according to acceptable patterns of idea sequencing). Each of these things is very different from the other, making this a terrible category.

C. Mental Orientation
does this relate to 1. personality (all predilections), 2. attitude (current predilection), or 3. sensory integration (calm & clear interfacing with the environment, as opposed to confusion with sensory events). Each of these is a very different category and each is affected differently by psychedelics.

D. Perception
typically this gets confused, since many psychologists will equate sensation, with the identification of a sensory event (perception);
and this is unfortunate, because we do not identify all sensation, but all sensation does go into consciousness.
only those mental objects that surface out of memory after sensation events (i.e. recollections/or matches) are perceptions, although these are hardly distinguishable from any other memory event except for being small or "mere" as in mere perception, which is definitely much more processing than "bare" sensation which does not yet include any memory references.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #12217393 -

You are a "3rd year Med student" but you don't have access to a dictionary??? You could always just use one of the online ones. But that was a no brainer for a test question.

BTW if I brought one of my kids into to the emergency room b/c he was hallucinating and you told me he might have a problem "with his conciousness" I would call security followed by everyone up the mgmt chain.


--------------------
We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Radar]
    #12217414 -

Now you know why I avoid doctors like the plague.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Icelander]
    #12217715 -

keeping things in the context of neurology, a disorder of consciousness would be something along the lines of a seizure, coma, vegetative state.  when you're conscious (awake) and perceiving something in the absence of external stimuli (let's say hearing voices in your head), you'd be hallucinating.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Icelander]
    #12218218 -

Icelander said:
Now you know why I avoid doctors like the plague.



--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Question about Hallucinations from a Neurology/Psychiatry MedSchool test. [Re: Radar]
    #12220626 -

Radar said:
You are a "3rd year Med student" but you don't have access to a dictionary??? You could always just use one of the online ones. But that was a no brainer for a test question.

BTW if I brought one of my kids into to the emergency room b/c he was hallucinating and you told me he might have a problem "with his conciousness" I would call security followed by everyone up the mgmt chain.


Thank you! I should have thought of getting a dictionary earlier!

I don't think concepts like 'consciousness' can be defined in a dictionary. I'm not sure why you should react in this kind of manner, as I've stated in my first post it's something I've got trouble with grasping and ask people for help. I'm sorry if asking a question got you offended.
I don't think the question I've asked can be answer one-sided. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm asking people to tell me what their views are so I can understand something I'm interested in better. I'm not sure why you'd have to be such a dick about it....

For the rest thanks for the replies, had the test today; it went well and there were no questions about hallucinations at all.. so woo-yay I guess.


--------------------
"Whenever I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story"
-Barney Stinson

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