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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: ]
    #1208420 -

If (and that's a big if) the principles of prayer are absolute then there are only a few options:

A. You do not understand the principles.
B. You understand them but are not applying them.

or

C. Prayer is ineffectual because there is no personal God who responds to anyone.

Now there are a few MAJOR problems with A. or B.

1. They might be possible if it were just my denseness or inability to follow. However, widespread statistical evidence shows that either prayer doesn't work (the old no difference argument between large groups of believers and large groups of agnostics) or that so few (not just swamster) understand as to be statistically insignificant.

2. When a prayer seemingly is answered it could just be happenstance. "God opened the door to the career of my dreams." Great! Isn't it true that some people who don't pray also get fantastic jobs?

And of course when prayers don't work, there are two VERY convenient escape clauses:

A. You didn't pray correctly or sincerely.
B. God answered you, but not in the way that you hoped for.

3. As to not understanding, the Bible simply states "Ask and you shall receive; knock and the door shall be opened." Doesn't seem to complicated. Yet I must believe before I believe. Wonderful.

It is not enough to understand them, you have to practice what they teach.
It will help if I put two large quartz crystals under my pillow or chant in a foreign language?

Markos and I have both kept prayer journals and have sufficiently proved to ourselves that prayer works. I cannot speak for him but I didn't need to do a lot of convoluting to interpret the results and I have seen miracles that were the direct result of my prayers.
Perhaps you and Markos could put up a prayer guide and lead the prayer experiment that I continually suggest instead of berating me.

If you can't share persoanl details, you might explain how you KNEW for sure about the causal link between prayer and result. I have gone over this many times.

One mother who's child has leukemia prays to God and her child dies. She states. "It was God's will."

Another prays to God and her child lives. She states, "Clearly it was a miracle."

An agnostic mother who's child has leukemia does not pray to God and her child dies. She says very little.

Another does not pray to God and her child lives. She states, "I am so very lucky."






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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Swami]
    #1208436 -

Swami, maybe prayer doesn't work for you because when you try it you don't truely believe that it will work... Ya don't got enough faith because you doubt everything too much.

Not that that's a bad thing, but it's probably the source of your ineffective praying.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Adamist]
    #1208724 -

What's the result for praying to someone you belive as non existent ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: MAIA]
    #1209056 -

Exactly.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: MAIA]
    #1209111 -

What's the result for praying to someone you belive as non existent ?

What's the result for praying to someone you believe exists, but doesn't?



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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (01/12/03 05:09 AM)

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Swami]
    #1209117 -

Quote:
What's the result for praying to someone you belive exists, but doesn't?


No one knows.  :smirk: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Swami]
    #1211167 -

Quote:
, but doesn't?



You're stating a questionable afirmation (negation in this case) in that question, i'm not.
The answer to you're question has been given, no one knows.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: ]
    #1211208 -

I would like to put in that despite one's intentions, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Not an excuse, but a reasonable explanation of why the dissonance between human will and its manifestation in word and deed. If the soul is a mind-body - our psychophysical being - and the mind leads the bodily portion in word and deed, then one must concede that a certain 'skill' or spontaneous creativity is needed to create a teaching out of any given moment. This is what is demonstrated to others.

Few believers seem to have such a 'gift' to handle what 'ought' to be in such a way that their deepest intentions become manifested to others. At the very least, "meekness" and "humility" should supplant the tendencies of the "natural man" during one's moment-to-moment interactions with others. These are 'basic training' for the would-be Christian, and can be learned by those with modest verbal abilities. How they live their lives without taking social interaction into account is another dimension to be explored. The spiritually minded person doesn't 'dissipate' his energies with mere amusement or entertainment, when the goal 'ought' to be attainment (don'tcha think)?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1211479 -

then one must concede that a certain 'skill' or spontaneous creativity is needed to create a teaching out of any given moment.

Hmm... an interesting point that keeps coming up in different forms.

The spiritually minded person doesn't 'dissipate' his energies with mere amusement or entertainment, when the goal 'ought' to be attainment (don'tcha think)?

So you've noticed man's inclination towards hedonism, too, eh?

How do you explain the virtues of attainment to the "unenlightened"?
A pleasure-seeker is too self-centered to really look around and ahead to see anything but a dopamine release.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Sclorch]
    #1211565 -

"Once a man realizes God through intense dispassion,
he is no longer attached to woman.
Even if he must lead the life of a householder,
he is free from fear of and attachment to woman.
Suppose there are two magnets, one big
and the other small.
Which one will attract the iron?
The big one,of course.
God is the big magnet. Compared to Him,
woman is a small one.
He who has realized God does not look upon
a woman with the eye of lust;
so he is not afraid of her.
He perceives clearly that women are but so many aspects
of the Divine Mother.
He worships them all as the Mother Herself."
-Sri Ramakrishna


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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Adamist]
    #1211724 -

Sounds like Sri Ramakrishna never found the right woman. :wink:


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Evolving]
    #1211734 -

He did... Her name is Kali.


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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: ]
    #1213156 -

Since everything in the Bible (not to mention life) can be taken as significant (for this is exactly what it means to be religious), I'd point out that thing that St. Paul says about praying "three times" for the "thorn" to be removed from his "side." Now, many have speculated on his malady (even homosexuality has seriously been advanced), but the answer to his prayer was that it would continue. I prayed for the saving of my marriage over several years, but as it turned out, staying would have sickened my soul, perhaps beyonds repair. People told me there would be a 'silver lining' to the dark cloud of gloom, and that stuff just angered me, but they were right. I am healthier, happier and holier than I ever was during that marriage, and it was a blessing that I left, not the dreadful curse that it seemed to be. Perhaps this example does not come up to Swami's evaluation of loss , but for me, divorce was more traumatic than death of a parent. My world-view was damaged in the process. I have more than recovered. Swami could too if he allowed it.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/13/03 09:41 AM)

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Swami]
    #1214331 -

This is the thing Swami, you present the logical outcomes of a controlled experiment, but here's the difficulty: one leaves the subject-object dichotomy upon which the scientific method is predicated. Even though we know that the experimenter is included in the results of certain experiments (say in certain microphysics observations), we still hold to a manipulation of variables versus a control.

In prayer, one leaves this fiction of somehow standing outside of the phenomenon - no longer can one's own ego serve as the fixed, or Archimedean point of reference. In prayer, one must quiet one's mind (like every other concentrative meditation/contemplation teaches [there is your method or technique aspect of your inquiry]), and lose oneself in the Oneness between your will (the prayer), and your faith (in the very Real Presence of God to YOU - AND - the Very Reality of God. My physical stance is rather like the Muslim in prayer, and this reflects my entire attitude, as does any other body language or specialized mudra. I often focus on the White Light of Unmitigated Reality, blazing in my Heart Cave, in order to expell extraneous thoughts and visions. There. Technique. Of the working of God I will say no more. Certain things come TO you, but they come not FROM you. An 'Other' current of Pure Living Water enters into your own stream of consciousness (I'm doing the Very best I can to convey this Sacred thing to you, having been given this brief window of opportunity by your response). Warm and nurturing, or cool and refreshing to an arid and withering soul, Real results occur in that very moment. "Ask, and it will be given; knock, and the door will be opened." One may not always receive the gift that one has pleaded for, but the consolation is no mere consolation prize. It is "the Comforter," the "Wonderful Counselor," the "Holy Spirit [Consciousness]" which is 'Wholly Other,' and which one can in time come to discern as 'other than me,' an Ontological Verity that one can rely on, take comfort in, have faith in. I can't put this part into you, you must receive it in faith and see for yourself. +++ Peace+++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1214431 -

Nice post Markos.

I prayed for the saving of my marriage over several years, but as it turned out, staying would have sickened my soul, perhaps beyonds repair.

When you tried this, were you practicing a different type of prayer? I ask this because your result is the typically frustrating one of :

A. My marriage was saved - God answered my prayer.
B. My marriage was dissolved - God answered my prayer (He knew that I would be better off).

Do you see the dilemna?

Even if B. God or fate or luck frequently gives us things that make us worse off, so that statement doesn't even really work.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Swami]
    #1215109 -

Look not to the outer appearance. I did, and still do see marriage as an inner reality that is manifested by the obviousness of two 'separate' forms living and joining together. But as in the 'primal couple,' mythic though they may be, Adam and Eve were really One being. Only after their 'fall,' did they fail to experience the spiritual reality first, and see the outward form, and became ashamed, etc.

My state of wholeness was actually being completed by Something Else, be it my Anima in the Jungian sense, or a sustaining 'Uncreated Energy' of God, but it was not coming through the being of my wife, who may have said "I will," but never intended it at the wedding or afterwards. The whole thing was a deceit. I discovered this only after much self-inflicted pain of remorse, masochistic self-recrimination, feeling foolish at having been faithful and declining numerous tastey
offers, etc.

Look instead to the wholeness that I speak of, that has in time manifested in the outer world, with good fortune having come to me repeatedly, amidst serious threats to my life by cancer, the expected sadness of deaths, and other typical tragedies of the human condition. I have been healed inwardly - it has manifested boldly in the outer world (Good woman, nice house, totally unexpected inheritance) - me, a hippy  psychedelic philosopher with little material aspirations. There is a pattern too complex to advance here in a linear fashion. It would ramble and not prove a thing. There is a pattern I tell you. I intuit it as clear as day but find it impossible to convey with prose or logic. Faith and the life of prayer is Real. When doubts creep in, I like to assign thir origin to the devil :smile:  but it's beyond any point of reversal, and I'd like to pass the Sacred Experiment on to you. 


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1215126 -

Quote:
Faith and the life of prayer is Real.


Did you use faith and a life of prayer before or after coming in harmony with the pattern?


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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Adamist]
    #1215183 -

Ooooo....
Good question, Adamist.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: Adamist]
    #1216204 -

The beginning of my spiritual life - rebirth, born again, conversion, completion, whatever - developed from a point (the Biblical "mustard seed"), and the whole trip developed 'outward' simultaneously. Faith deepened and as it did so, my perception of the kaleidoscope of interrelated events broadened as well.

Compassion, even for my own predicament increased and became extended to others, who despite their misguided attempts to act different, special, unique, were perceived more and more the same. Most people are angry, unhappy children, locked into their first three chakra based psyches like mythological centaurs, satyrs and mermaids/men. The next chakra level, characterized by Compassion, is placed on a pedestal and worshipped at best, or payed lip-service to. And people wonder why the world has not changed for the better! Human nature remains unchanged, unless and until it is tranformed from On High.

BTW, one does not "use" faith and prayer. On enters into such a world view with humility and great awe. You may not have intended it, but the wording makes it seem like a human manipulation from the manipura [same root] chakra.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Positive effects of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1218687 -

Adamist: Did you use faith and a life of prayer before or after coming in harmony with the pattern?
Markos: The beginning of my spiritual life - rebirth, born again, conversion, completion, whatever - developed from a point (the Biblical "mustard seed"), and the whole trip developed 'outward' simultaneously. Faith deepened and as it did so, my perception of the kaleidoscope of interrelated events broadened as well.

You see, this is a perfect example of why I have problems with your posts. You could have just answered Adamist's question with ONE, concise sentence, but you didn't. Sophistry (don't try me Mr_Mushrooms).

Now, the content...
Markos, you had a religious experience that steered you to a life of faith and prayer, correct? That's what the above indicates.
However, you're constantly arguing with Swami that one needs to "give themselves up to the Lord" or, more succintly, BELIEVE before prayer will actually work. Well, seeing as how many of us are lacking this same religious experience that you have been graced with, just how in God's name do you expect us to "do it right"?

{Note: There are TWO question marks (?) in the above post, please address BOTH. Thanks.}


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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