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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Societal gains from religion / spirituality
    #2340265 - 02/16/04 08:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Meditation, vegetarianism, chakra and kundalini study; etc. has done what for India? Heart-breaking poverty and continuous factional wars.

African shamanism has done nothing to stop the extreme tribal blood-letting.

Islam and Judaism goes hand-in-hand with generation after generation of passed-on Middle-Eastern hatred of one's neghbors.

Christianity and western nations have led us to a point where we have developed a selfish ego-based culture bent on raping the planetary resources and dominating lesser nations.

Now some of you may tell how your life has improved through certain attitudes and practices and that is fine. But where are the macro affects? Are we any closer to peace after thousands of years of scriptural study? Doesn't seem so to this poster.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #2340317 - 02/16/04 09:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Meditation, vegetarianism, chakra and kundalini study; etc. has done what for India? Heart-breaking poverty and continuous factional wars.



I believe a lot of that could be blamed on colonialism.

Quote:

African shamanism has done nothing to stop the extreme tribal blood-letting.




Same as above.

Quote:

Islam and Judaism goes hand-in-hand with generation after generation of passed-on Middle-Eastern hatred of one's neghbors.



The Muslims in the Middle East mostly hate Zionists, not Jews in general(though there are more than a few that do). And Israelis are doing what they think they have to do to protect the land which they believe is rightly theirs.

Quote:

Christianity and western nations have led us to a point where we have developed a selfish ego-based culture bent on raping the planetary resources and dominating lesser nations.



Christianity changed a great deal once it became the official religion of the Roman Empire. I think if Christianity had remained in its original form, it would not have become the way it is today(probably wouldn't be nearly as widespread either). As soon as Christianity became a state religion, it became a tool for the state to manipulate to serve its own ends.

Quote:

Now some of you may tell how your life has improved through certain attitudes and practices and that is fine. But where are the macro affects? Are we any closer to peace after thousands of years of scriptural study? Doesn't seem so to this poster.



Beliefs are all well and good, but beliefs don't necessarily translate into attitudes. There are many Buddhists who are still very materialistic. There are many Christians who do not show love to their neighbors and to their enemies. There are many Muslims who kill innocent people. To profess beliefs is not enough. People have to apply those beliefs in order for them to have some effect.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #2340363 - 02/16/04 10:00 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Beliefs are all well and good, but beliefs don't necessarily translate into attitudes. "

yeah they do. the reason is that many people identify themselves with beliefs, which then includes a belief into their character. this is their belief and they are going to defend it since they think it's a part of them. they will spend time and energy defending it without even knowing what they are defending.

you mentioned about the land jews are trying to defend. why are they spending that much time? Because they think the land is HOLY. this to me is ridiculous if you think about it from one perspective. I mean, if I am under the assumption that a god created all of this, then why is the blue hell would one piece of land be more valuable than another??

It is this belief alone that is the reason for many wars.

the belief in "value"

"value" is subjective. hate to be cliche but one man's trash is another man's treasure.

we fight for this value, because we identify with it. we think who we are revolves around our beliefs.

this leaves us blind to truth.

i think beliefs are very powerful.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #2340380 - 02/16/04 10:09 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Swami... you think the world in its present form hasn't had many advantages from the practices and beliefs of religion and spirituality? Well, I think you failed to ponder over what the state of the world could've manifested into with the complete lack of religion/spirituality. You think it's materialistic, violent, and ego-based now... imagine if those were the only virtues to choose from.

-ergot


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #2340417 - 02/16/04 10:37 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

well, SWAMI, as usual you have mistaken the moon for the finger pointing at it.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #2340458 - 02/16/04 11:06 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: ergot]
    #2340462 - 02/16/04 11:07 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think both Swami and ergot have good points.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #2340505 - 02/16/04 11:42 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The Top 10 Societal gains from religion / spirituality

10) Many people need someone or something to tell them what to do, what sort of anarchy would exist in societies without mystical texts and annointed interpreters of those texts?

9) 7-11's and AM/PMs are relatively uncrowded on Sunday mornings while the believers are in church. This makes it much easier for me to get my coffee, gasoline, cigarettes, beer and copies of Maxim, FHM and the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue without standing in line.

8) However depraved their lifestyles or actions, believers can find a passage in some holy text that with the proper interpretation will allow them to feel good about themselves either because on some level it's all right 'in the eyes of the lord' or they know they'll be forgiven because they believe.

7) Those sexy Catholic school girl outfits.

6) Alcohol is an official sacrament and the subject of a first miracle.

5) Christmas presents.

4) An excuse to not wear a condom.

3) The unexplained and unknowable can be 'explained' and 'known' - the burden of doubt is lessened and replaced with easy to repeat answers.

2) Mardi Gras & Carnival.

1) Jokes that start something like this, "A rabbi, a priest, and a Buddist monk walk into a bar..."


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #2340522 - 02/16/04 11:52 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"To profess beliefs is not enough. People have to apply those beliefs in order for them to have some effect."

Yep. I am watching it, first-hand, in my own family. All those "Christians" living "un-Christian" lives.

If people take their beliefs and really practice them, in their private lives, the effects would spill over into society. The world would change, starting with the individual.

But most people aren't going to practice what they believe. That would be HARD, damn it!

(LOL @ Evolving)


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Evolving]
    #2340524 - 02/16/04 11:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for putting things in clear perspective.  :lol:

Guess that early morning "wake and bake" is kicking in...  :spliff:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Frog]
    #2340537 - 02/16/04 12:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"well, SWAMI, as usual you have mistaken the moon for the finger pointing at it. "

damn right

this is alot like my all time favourite thread "PHILOSOPHERS ARE INSTURMENTS OF THE DEVIL"

"what has vegetarianism and kundalini done for India? Starvation and warfare" come on man of all people i wouldnt expect you to commit this kind of cause and effect screwyness. someone called it 'canyon jumping' or something in another thread.

You take something good, or at least not inherently bad, then you juxtapose it with something terrible and leave the hanging inferance that one is responsible for the other to spark debate. Jesus isnt responsible for the crusades, and if people were more like jesus (the true aim of christianity) than the world would be a better place.

The extent to which Religion and Spirituality have had Societal Benefits is exactly the extent to which people truly follow there religions.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2340553 - 02/16/04 12:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"well, SWAMI, as usual you have mistaken the moon for the finger pointing at it. "

DoctorJ, did you make that up, or did you borrow it from somewhere?  Can I borrow it?  :smile:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2340554 - 02/16/04 12:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So, bellyaching aside, can you point to ANY gains?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: ergot]
    #2340730 - 02/16/04 01:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
Swami... you think the world in its present form hasn't had many advantages from the practices and beliefs of religion and spirituality? Well, I think you failed to ponder over what the state of the world could've manifested into with the complete lack of religion/spirituality. You think it's materialistic, violent, and ego-based now... imagine if those were the only virtues to choose from.





Actually, it would have taken a lot longer to start to evolve past a point where various tribes would go and kill each other and whatever. "Heathens".

However, without any beliefs to get in their way, to shut themselves off from reality, they would have eventually gotten to a more evolved state, and they would have done it right.

So what you are looking at is a super advanced society that is totally fucked and has major problems, but popped up faster, or you have a perfect society that would be grounded in reality and would be peaceful and unified, just that it took longer to do so.

Or something.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #2341191 - 02/16/04 03:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So, bellyaching aside, can you point to ANY gains?

Well, aside from Ergot's point, which is really more of a "what if" type point, religion/spirituality creates communities of like-minded individuals ready for mass-manipulation - and THAT makes my and other dictators' job a helluva lot easier when it comes to getting them to do my bidding. If I tell them there are fifty virgins waiting for them in heaven, you better believe that they don't mind shuffling up to the front lines to take a bullet in the chest.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Frog]
    #2341238 - 02/16/04 03:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ, did you make that up, or did you borrow it from somewhere? Can I borrow it?




lol

I think lao tzu or someone much smarter than myself came up with that one. I do believe it predates copyright.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinenecronomicon
journeyman

Registered: 12/22/03
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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #2341351 - 02/16/04 03:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

its not society that gains from spirituality, its the self. The only thing that could stop the bloodshed and war is a bigass canni-bomb.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

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Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: necronomicon]
    #2341403 - 02/16/04 03:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

necronomicon said:
its not society that gains from spirituality, its the self. The only thing that could stop the bloodshed and war is a bigass canni-bomb.




Society doesn't gain anything from spirituality, you are right there. The only people gaining anything are either the individuals who do gain positive results from it and the other people who use spirituality to control the other ones.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinesleepysmoker
Stranger

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 334
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2342499 - 02/16/04 07:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

maybe society does gain something from spirituality.

if people really do send out "vibes" or whatever on deeper levels, then truly spiritual people are probably sending out lots of positive energy that would have a positive effect on society.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Societal gains from religion / spirituality [Re: sleepysmoker]
    #2343889 - 02/17/04 01:04 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Um... sure... "probably"....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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