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War changes nothing
    #10164360 -

WW1 was known as "The Great War" and "The War to end all Wars"
WW2 shot that out of the water with a death toll over 4 times greater than WW1.

As far as I believe there will never be a war, no matter how destructive or horrific, that could sway the entire world into peace.

I've always wondered how the world would go if all the governments were atheist. However that would change little. Civil wars and sect insurgencies etc would probably be an infestation globally. People would fight over politics, economics and land anyway.

Would it take a scorched earth, a near extinction, to change our mindset?
Hell no. Land and resources would be more valuable than ever.

I think we are possibly more cautious about use of highly destructive weapons. However, the fact that the superpowers of the world have them is maybe cause enough for concern.
Sure, the weapons are there now for cold assertion, but how quickly could things heat up and these weapons get used for what they were designed to do?

War may change the shape of the planet - (heck we're doing this pretty well where there is peace), but it will never remove lust greed anger envy and pride and violence from the human psyche.





What are your thoughts?
What, hypothetically speaking, do you think could produce lasting world peace?


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10164379 -

flangenips said:
War may change the shape of the planet - (heck we're doing this pretty well where there is peace), but it will never remove lust greed anger envy and pride and violence from the human psyche.


It will if it annihilates all human psyches from the face of the planet.

flangenips said:
What, hypothetically speaking, do you think could produce lasting world peace?


An extraterrestial force that is superior to all human attempts of rebellion.  Refer to Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke for a fascinating scifi account of this.  Either that, or a drastic evolution in individual consciousness, but I can't see how this is realistic.

Edit: Also, props for representing Immortal in your avatar!  \m/


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10164387 -

War is based in fear. Fear is part of our animal nature. It didn't change on Star Trek so the future doesn't look promising. :lol:

War is a natural state on some level.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10164488 -

flangenips said:
What are your thoughts?
What, hypothetically speaking, do you think could produce lasting world peace?


I think as long as there is civilization there will be war and it will never do any good.  War was the tool used to create civilization, because people did not want to be civilized.  You can't just go tell someone to work for you, you have to force them to do it.  In the beginning it was by violence.  (Now it's by causing them to accumulate debt and work to pay it off, or convincing the victim that they brought on their own suffering through "sin.")  Civilization and war perpetuate each other.

The only realistic method I see for producing world peace would come from an anarcho-primitivist perspective, i.e. a return to a state of pre-civilization and living in a state of nature.  I'm talking about the ideas of writers like Fredy Perlman, John Zerzan, Derrick Jensen, etc.  It just so happens that I've been reading Perlman's "Against His-story, Against Leviathan," so this is what I've been thinking about the last week or so.  I've also been hungry to get others' opinions of the anarcho-primitivist perspective.


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Re: War changes nothing [Re: deCypher]
    #10164524 -

deCypher said:
flangenips said:
War may change the shape of the planet - (heck we're doing this pretty well where there is peace), but it will never remove lust greed anger envy and pride and violence from the human psyche.


It will if it annihilates all human psyches from the face of the planet.



Edit: Also, props for representing Immortal in your avatar!  \m/


Hmm. I imagine some other animal will eventually take our place and attempt to destroy itself. Maybe i should extend my original post to include after extinction. :crazy2:
Even some expansions of the drake equation factor in the "destroying themselves" and a "repetition factor" of intelligent life on planets haha. Can't find a source for both of those, but i remember being shown variants of the equation in ASTR109.


However we can probably rest assured that if immortal survive global nuclear war, there will be plenty of tootsie pops that survived for all of them.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10164629 -

sterbeklang said:
flangenips said:
What are your thoughts?
What, hypothetically speaking, do you think could produce lasting world peace?


I think as long as there is civilization there will be war and it will never do any good.  War was the tool used to create civilization, because people did not want to be civilized.  You can't just go tell someone to work for you, you have to force them to do it.  In the beginning it was by violence.  (Now it's by causing them to accumulate debt and work to pay it off, or convincing the victim that they brought on their own suffering through "sin.")  Civilization and war perpetuate each other.

The only realistic method I see for producing world peace would come from an anarcho-primitivist perspective, i.e. a return to a state of pre-civilization and living in a state of nature.  I'm talking about the ideas of writers like Fredy Perlman, John Zerzan, Derrick Jensen, etc.  It just so happens that I've been reading Perlman's "Against His-story, Against Leviathan," so this is what I've been thinking about the last week or so.  I've also been hungry to get others' opinions of the anarcho-primitivist perspective.


I can't see anarcho-primitivism lasting long in terms of primates, and maybe even evolution of intelligence of other creatures. Even the least intelligent creatures are very territorial towards their own species whether they be mating pairs, families, prides, flocks or colonies.

The state of nature has always amused me. especially when writers use "return to" in the same sentence as it. Also i doubt anarcho-primitivism even works hypothetically, re-wilding wont stop us protecting our young, our territory, competition and killing each other in the process.

heres something from wiki (because i can't be bothered finding another source)
They argue that prior to civilization there generally existed ample leisure time, considerable gender equality and social equality, a non-destructive approach to the natural world, the absence of organized violence, no mediating or formal institutions, and strong health and robustness

If this is correct about anarcho-primitivist belief, then the first three points are utter BS. I don't even think i need to explain why.

Is Perlman's book a good read? might see if any of the local libraries or the uni has it.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10164647 -

I think there is evidence that hunter gatherer societies did have much more lesure time then we do. The rest is bs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: Icelander]
    #10164737 -

yeah, they had the most leisure time of any society


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Re: War changes nothing [Re: Icelander]
    #10164930 -

Icelander said:
I think there is evidence that hunter gatherer societies did have much more lesure time then we do. The rest is bs.


Yeah, you're right.

I imagine this could depend on location and time though. Some hunters could spent entire days tracking a single beast over rough terrain in colder higher altitudes, or rainforests or swamps posing great danger to the hunter(s). Though i guess large game lasted multiple days, and a successful hunt gave plenty of cause for leisurely celebration.
On the plains there probably was a lot of time for leisure. Easy terrain, plenty of prey.

At modern mans intelligence level, even if all tech and industry was wiped out, hunter gatherers would quickly pick up husbandry and agriculture. An even then, weapons for hunting can easily be used against fellow man.

So why not just be gatherers in a anarcho-primitivist society, forget the hunting part.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10165224 -

Hunting provides a high density energy source very high in protein. Most primates either include some meat or insects in the diet.

In non jungle areas gathering is difficult and one would need to rely much more on meat. This may be the reason the human primate eats so much meat now and in the past. Climate change may well have forced us out on the plains as jungle areas shrunk.

Evidence suggests hunter gatherers on average spent 2 to 4 hours per day on survival issues with the rest being free time. Compared to an 8 or more hour a day work day plus shopping we are getting a tough life as trade for the safety agrarian culture provides.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10166898 -

flangenips said:
So why not just be gatherers in a anarcho-primitivist society, forget the hunting part.


where are you going to gather from?

If we are living in an anarchistic state then people would have to take care of their own plants, and with the population of the world atm, there would be no way for people to secure their own plot of land without the social laws and assumptions of property rights.

It seems to me that WARS bring peace... until the next WAR. Peace is a state of social order... a lack of interpersonal threats.

PEople dont just get along.. there will always be an 'other' group that thinks the world should be different, and so one group has to defeat, with force, the other group in order to prevent their threat to the rest of society and their opposition to political movements that might bring a type of 'peace'.

The thing is that peace must be forced on people because it is not the natural state of humans that live in close quarters but are not bound by familial or communal ties. That is, we could only avoid wars while there was enough land for everyone to roam at their own pace.


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Re: War changes nothing [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10167096 -

heh i was being an asshole when i said that.

But to play this game, i was talking of anarcho-primitivism, not an anarchistic 'state'. Where we would just forage for delicious fruit and veges. Granted the population density would have to be a great smaller for this to work, otherwise we would certainly want to mass plant in a plot of land a great deal of veges and fruit to provide a growing sedentary population.

However i still don't believe that it would work at all. Even within family and community there would be competition for the best fruit, or a particular tree or whatever. Even with vast land per person, i think territorialism would still exist and so would violence.

Even then, within a family of generations long pacifist hunter-gatherers a little shit may be born and grown into a self-righteous violent cunt.

And like i already said, with our intelligence, we would quickly turn anarchy into order, force behaviour and establish hierarchy to do so anyway in attempt to prevent problems, but this can also lead to problems too.

I think the closest thing to peace has been and is experienced by rural type families and secluded communities, communal peace anywho, and in some cases for many generations. But of course, everything they've worked on and for can be taken away from them at anytime by someone else - including their lives.

Intelligence and Stupidity are the two edges on the sword called human psyche that is being swung like a pendulum.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10167948 -

And after every so often sexual deviants come up with another brilliant reason to perform racial cleansing,
thus guaranteeing cuter sex partners for all time, which never works because of recessive genes lurking and recombining...


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: flangenips]
    #10169043 -

flangenips said:
Is Perlman's book a good read? might see if any of the local libraries or the uni has it.


Yeah, if nothing else he's an excellent writer.  But it's very dense as far as language is concerned, so it's not an easy read.  It's basically a 300-page metaphorically worded essay on the history of western civilization.  This page contains an excerpt.  If you're already an academic expert on World History or Western Civilization studies, it will be a much easier read because the metaphors will fall into place automatically.


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Re: War changes nothing [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10169096 -

someone said there will always be war until there is something happening that makes war obsolete.. lol think i saw it in some alien movie...

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10169110 -

...perhaps some sort of technological mind-control device so that governments could get people to do what they want without having to brutalize them and destroy their land base first.


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Re: War changes nothing *DELETED* [Re: flangenips]
    #10182985 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: War changes nothing [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10183632 -

Could go either way, depends whether the bad people or the good people are in power. Excuse the black and white, I know it's not popular.


There are too few of the so called "good" people to take control. See the "good" people would also have to have control of their fear levels to have influence. There are plenty of people who don't want war but are too afraid to go against the flow. Remember what happened after 9/11.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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