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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650552 - 09/12/05 04:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What question are you asking?

No, I won't answer your rhetical questions.

So you are not a pacifist. Good, that is clear. One more question, do you believe in a standing military?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650580 - 09/12/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Most agree with having a military but then at the same time demonize those who do the duty.



Following orders and acting in defense do not always result in the same actions. There is a difference between being a tool and being a cognizant actor. I will always criticize those who do not question their actions and merely do things because they are told.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650601 - 09/12/05 04:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?


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OfflineMJF
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650609 - 09/12/05 04:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said: I will always criticize those who do not question their actions and merely do things because they are told.




:thumbup: to you.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650646 - 09/12/05 04:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Most agree with having a military but then at the same time demonize those who do the duty.



Following orders and acting in defense do not always result in the same actions. There is a difference between being a tool and being a cognizant actor. I will always criticize those who do not question their actions and merely do things because they are told.




I assume that most believe a standing army is necessary. As such, those who are part of the military must obey orders because it is how the hierarchy of power is ordered. Should we have every 19 year old kid decide foreign policy decisions? They join to serve their country and fight when their leaders decide, he worries about infantry tactics and becoming a good shot with his rifle.


--------------------
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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650665 - 09/12/05 04:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?




I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting. But since you are an anarchists... whatever. Our realities are a world apart.

What tactics do they use?

Recruit fairly? I believe in free will, when someone turns 18 they decide to join the military on their own free will. That is all that needs to be said.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



Edited by looner2 (09/12/05 04:29 PM)


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OfflineMJF
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650740 - 09/12/05 04:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting.




First of all...respect is earned not given.
Second...
who are they protecting? Who are they serving?
I respect my friends in the military as people...that doesn't mean I have to respect the job they signed up for.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650750 - 09/12/05 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They are protecting their countrymen. They are serving their country.

What is the point though? You are an anarchist. Why talk about soldiers? You don't believe in the country they are serving.


--------------------
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
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Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650766 - 09/12/05 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?




I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting. But since you are an anarchists... whatever. Our realities are a world apart.

What tactics do they use?

Recruit fairly? I believe in free will, when someone turns 18 they decide to join the military on their own free will. That is all that needs to be said.




To give life can be a noble thing, but it can also be a foolish thing.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650783 - 09/12/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?




I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting. But since you are an anarchists... whatever. Our realities are a world apart.

What tactics do they use?

Recruit fairly? I believe in free will, when someone turns 18 they decide to join the military on their own free will. That is all that needs to be said.




Even if there is such a thing as free will, stupid people can be influenced to such degree that you might consider them automatic machines without free will, and I mean that literally.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650818 - 09/12/05 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You can consider that, but I won't and neither will any society or government that values freedom. Are you suggesting we take away stupid peoples right to make their own decision?


--------------------
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650820 - 09/12/05 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"why are you being so nationalist?"

I am being "nationalist" because you are focusing on U.S. soldiers in Iraq as examples of all humanity. Why not discuss the Nazi war crimes, Russian atrocities in Afghanistan, Croatian genocide, or Iraqi genocide as well. What is going on in Iraq is the lesser crime by magnitudes, though I do not support my country's action there by any means. I was once a soldier and I sympathize with the people who are stuck with this terrible situation. I should also state that most of my friends were not bloodthirsty, and on the contrary were highly principled and disciplined men. I might remind you a recent post focused on how unfree America is. If you are discussing humanity focus on more than just America. It is a legitimate topic for debate, but not to be used as a gross generalization for all soldiers globally.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650838 - 09/12/05 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts."

On the contrary many of the soldiers I have known that saw action were so overwhelmed with the pain inflicted on civilians that they could hardly live with it. It must be said that enemy soldiers are NOT victims...they are trying to kill you.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650851 - 09/12/05 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"why are you being so nationalist?"

I am being "nationalist" because you are focusing on U.S. soldiers in Iraq as examples of all humanity. Why not discuss the Nazi war crimes, Russian atrocities in Afghanistan, Croatian genocide, or Iraqi genocide as well. What is going on in Iraq is the lesser crime by magnitudes, though I do not support my country's action there by any means. I was once a soldier and I sympathize with the people who are stuck with this terrible situation. I should also state that most of my friends were not bloodthirsty, and on the contrary were highly principled and disciplined men. I might remind you a recent post focused on how unfree America is. If you are discussing humanity focus on more than just America. It is a legitimate topic for debate, but not to be used as a gross generalization for all soldiers globally.




What difference does it make which one of these things I mention as an example? I saw the film last night on TV, so that is what inspired me to talk about it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650860 - 09/12/05 05:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
I assume that most believe a standing army is necessary.



That may be a correct assumption, however the popularity of the notion is no determinant of whether or not it is the correct or best way to organize things. It is also irrelevant to whether or not people should be blind tools for those who give orders.

Quote:

... those who are part of the military must obey orders because it is how the hierarchy of power is ordered.



So, people should follow orders because the system says people should follow orders. Hmmm, very deep.

Quote:

Should we have every 19 year old kid decide foreign policy decisions?



Where do you get that? I am merely stating that all individuals should make conscious decisions, particularly when it comes to their reasons for depriving others of their lives or giving up their own life.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/01/05
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650866 - 09/12/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts."

On the contrary many of the soldiers I have known that saw action were so overwhelmed with the pain inflicted on civilians that they could hardly live with it. It must be said that enemy soldiers are NOT victims...they are trying to kill you.




Many, but some do feel pleasure in taking lives of civilians.
And as for soldiers, the reason they are trying to kill you is because you are trying to kill them, it's a mirror reaction.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650872 - 09/12/05 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
You can consider that, but I won't and neither will any society or government that values freedom. Are you suggesting we take away stupid peoples right to make their own decision?




they already don't have the right because they can't take advantage of that right. But I'm not saying we should control them, I'm saying one must be carefull around such people becuase he is the pupetmaster.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650903 - 09/12/05 05:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Many, but some do feel pleasure in taking lives of civilians."

In civilian life there are an abundance of those types. They are not unique to the military.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650921 - 09/12/05 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yea but in war they get a pat on the back and for it, not to mention get access to some really destructive machinery.
Sociopaths in time of peace lave less chance of doing damage because they don't have thir own rocket launcher.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650956 - 09/12/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In my time of service I knew many who served in Vietnam. They were emotionally scarred. I had a seargent who was a Congressional Medal of Honor winner who cried out in his sleep and freaked out while on particularly intense field exercises. He was honored above all others with his decoration yet he felt incompetant and empty. He was still in the Army because he felt he was too ruined to hold a civilian job. He was an honourable, though emotionally twisted individual. I knew others who had uncontrollable anger problems which left them unable to stay married or raise children. Most of the Vietnam veterans I knew felt themselves to be casualties of the war. I never heard anyone brag about bringing misery to others. If those sociopaths were so prevalent I think I would have known some.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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