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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3026659 - 08/20/04 12:06 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And you're wrong, war was invented. No other animal on the planet commits war. And most species' in large groups try to help their starving brethren.




incorrect...

animals fight all the goddamn time. when seperate clans or packs or whatever of the same species get together, if they're not a herd animal like cows or something they tend to fight.
usually not fatal.. but monkeys, baboons, they fight for keeps.

We've got got the biggest rock on the whole damn planet, that's all.

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Offlined33p
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3026728 - 08/20/04 12:24 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
Quote:

And you're wrong, war was invented. No other animal on the planet commits war. And most species' in large groups try to help their starving brethren.




incorrect...

animals fight all the goddamn time. when seperate clans or packs or whatever of the same species get together, if they're not a herd animal like cows or something they tend to fight.
usually not fatal.. but monkeys, baboons, they fight for keeps.

We've got got the biggest rock on the whole damn planet, that's all.




Well we were talking about war on a large scale. As if animals would actually band together and fight another species.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: entiformatie]
    #3027077 - 08/20/04 02:41 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

entiformatie said:
Without all these problems in our world, we would have nothing to struggle against. We would put forth no effort. In essence, we would be meaningless. We would be automated nothings floating about a river. But we are given obstacles, and with these obstacles, we are given a chance to define ourselves. We can put forth the effort, and how we do so, against what, for what, that is what we become. That's what seperates me from this computer I'm sitting at.




ART.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3027430 - 08/20/04 06:28 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Also, animals fight for survival. Now answer these questions:

What does Bin Laden fight for?
What does Bush fight for?
What did the people in the Age of Enlightenment fight for?

What recorded time period offered the largest growth to knowledge and peace?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3028445 - 08/20/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

whoa buddy, i think you've misunderstood what i've tried o convey. I definitely don't smile about all the problems our world has to deal with. I can barely sleep at night thinking about them. But I found a way to accept them, to understand the necessity of certain things, while still trying to overcome them. I do what I can for other people, don't go and judge me just yet.

And mad buddha abuser... that's some hypocrisy right there, but I won't even bother with that.


--------------------
/opinion
.sean

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: entiformatie]
    #3028558 - 08/20/04 12:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife"

Thats like saying: "I'm glad people are ignorant."

I'm glad ignorant people are glad about being ignorant.

Nothing against you personally. I believe you're misrepresenting yourself, and that you do not enjoy seeing people suffer. In fact, I'm willing to bet the opposite is true.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Edited by psyka (08/20/04 01:00 PM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: BleaK]
    #3028735 - 08/20/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)



That was fucking beautiful! You "know".

Adversity is not neccesary for life to have meaning. Creative expression and appreciation for it is all one needs to derive meaning from existance. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3028764 - 08/20/04 02:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Well we were talking about war on a large scale. As if animals would actually band together and fight another species.





wolves do. Packs of wolves stick in groups, fight other packs ( often wolves will die ) and any animals. Theyll run down bears, anything.




As for ART for meaning in life: I'm sorry, but you people ( those saying art will replace suffering and give meaning to life ) are morons. The greatest art has been borne from the depths of human sickness and grotesqueness. The greatest artists have been husks of "normal" people, paranoid beyond belief, depressed and focused on their OWN thing. There is no art without war, famine, sickness and death.

For one, I abhorr the disgusting crap most people love - nice colors, but incredibly shallow. Great technique!.. but hollow. Those things are MEANINGLESS. Meaningful art is an expression of some kind of pain

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: vampirism]
    #3028877 - 08/20/04 02:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You have to have TWO opposing sides to have a war :smile:
Otherwise its called survival.

Name some great artists influence by human sickness and grotesqueness and I'll try to name 5 more that are the opposite. My point is the human spirit does not require war to thrive. In fact, its obviously the opposite.

Pain does not equal happiness. Meaningful art is an expression of some kind of feeling. Not just pain. Am I speaking to war machines or human beings?

http://images.google.com/images?q=famous+art&ie=UTF-8&hl=en


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Edited by psyka (08/20/04 02:38 PM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: vampirism]
    #3028907 - 08/20/04 02:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Morrow..............................

Morrow.....


Art in it's general sense as it was used by bleak and myself appreciate that the dark and light compliment each other.

This topic is all about how they oppose each other and I realise not many will understand this and I was impressed by Bleak for pointing it out to all of you fighting amongst yourselfs here.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlined33p
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: vampirism]
    #3028960 - 08/20/04 03:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Well we were talking about war on a large scale. As if animals would actually band together and fight another species.





wolves do. Packs of wolves stick in groups, fight other packs ( often wolves will die ) and any animals. Theyll run down bears, anything.





Well that does not constitute war to me. Now if hundreds of wolves declared war on Black bears in a certain area i would change my answer.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: psyka]
    #3028996 - 08/20/04 03:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ok then, please name 5 whose art is not a reflection, acceptance or rejection of pain and which actual has some meaning ( as I see it, life is centered around a concept of pain + negativity. Not an arbitrary choice, but rather the only possibility. Maybe a matter of perspective, but if you want me to elaborate, just ask ). Also, how is it not a war when you have two wolf packs agreeing to kill each other over resources?


get: Dark and light complimenting themselves is a technical aspect. To derive meaning from such compliments requires an equivalent knowledge of ultimate horror and ultimate pleasure ( which is really created by you from experiences ) . You're very limited if your selection ranges from grey to white. Yes, its also limiting from grey to black, but I'm making a point to defend horror here. I would defend elation if it were under attack here.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: vampirism]
    #3029071 - 08/20/04 03:24 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with that as all souls move through the dark night of the soul so they can appreciate the big picture of compliments with meaning. Thats just what people in pain and suffering are doing right now. I have no desire to go stop a war and take that away from them. I wrote that I could appreciate what comes from them. War is a part of the art of the Divine tapestry and thats what Bleak and I were pointing out. You are seeing this in oppositions and I am seeing compliments. You see adversity because you see oppositions. I can't see the adversity because I choose to see compliments. This is why war can go on all around me and I can be at peace.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3029712 - 08/20/04 06:22 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I agree with that as all souls move through the dark night of the soul so they can appreciate the big picture of compliments with meaning.  Thats just what people in pain and suffering are doing right now. I have no desire to go stop a war and take that away from them. I wrote that I could appreciate what comes from them. War is a part of the art of the Divine tapestry and thats what Bleak and I were pointing out. You are seeing this in oppositions and I am seeing compliments. You see adversity because you see oppositions. I can't see the adversity because I choose to see compliments. This is why war can go on all around me and I can be at peace.




Ha! Thank you for reminding me :smile:

Peace.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3030872 - 08/20/04 11:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"Well we were talking about war on a large scale. As if animals would actually band together and fight another species. "

Well that's actually NOT what we're talking about, but that aside animals DO band together and fight other species -- packs of wolves, whales, ants? Cooperative predation. Lions too.

No, and we're actually not even talking about war on a large scale.

War is what? Fighting. No matter how big or how small, it's still just a fight. Obviously the more people are around the bigger the fight will be. Animals don't have the capability to organize on a world-wide scale, but that is simply we humans using our abilities to their fullest -- as all other animals do.

No, what we are actually talking about is intra-species fighting. That's actually LESS prevalant than inter-species fighting (predation wins), but it is in no way shape or form unknown.

Animals of the same species fight all the time. Often it's not fatal, in most species, at least if it is a simple dominance fight.

However, two members of the same species yet from different pack/herd/clan/group.. they'll fight. In some species to the death. Some primates go on patrols and band together in war parties -- to strike a raid against a neighboring clan of monkeys.

Keep in mind, we are not talking about wolves fighting bears, or sharks fighting whales.

Same species.

Happens very frequently in nature.

What, you think humans only started fighting once we became intelligent? Hell no! It's a basal, instinctual thing.

It's all about resources and dominance. Food and sex, really. All we've done is shape that rough rock into an axehead and stuck a wooden handle on it.

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Offlined33p
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3031034 - 08/21/04 12:35 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
"Well we were talking about war on a large scale. As if animals would actually band together and fight another species. "

Well that's actually NOT what we're talking about, but that aside animals DO band together and fight other species -- packs of wolves, whales, ants? Cooperative predation. Lions too.

No, and we're actually not even talking about war on a large scale.

War is what? Fighting. No matter how big or how small, it's still just a fight. Obviously the more people are around the bigger the fight will be. Animals don't have the capability to organize on a world-wide scale, but that is simply we humans using our abilities to their fullest -- as all other animals do.

No, what we are actually talking about is intra-species fighting. That's actually LESS prevalant than inter-species fighting (predation wins), but it is in no way shape or form unknown.

Animals of the same species fight all the time. Often it's not fatal, in most species, at least if it is a simple dominance fight.

However, two members of the same species yet from different pack/herd/clan/group.. they'll fight. In some species to the death. Some primates go on patrols and band together in war parties -- to strike a raid against a neighboring clan of monkeys.

Keep in mind, we are not talking about wolves fighting bears, or sharks fighting whales.

Same species.

Happens very frequently in nature.

What, you think humans only started fighting once we became intelligent? Hell no! It's a basal, instinctual thing.

It's all about resources and dominance. Food and sex, really. All we've done is shape that rough rock into an axehead and stuck a wooden handle on it.




No, no you're quite wrong my friend. For a war to exist there must be a prolonged state of open conflict between different parties. You see nature is ruled by survival of the fittest. There isn't any of this religious crap of help thy neighbor. Nature is one large state of open conflict. When animals meet, one thing rules their mind: the instinct of survival. This is not the same thing as a war. Niether is animals hunting in packs.

I mean would you call a bar-fight a war? Hell no.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3031854 - 08/21/04 08:05 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ants, Bacterias or small animals/insects are the species to look at if you will find equivalent examples for your war-model in nature.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3031879 - 08/21/04 08:16 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Keep in mind, we are not talking about wolves fighting bears, or sharks fighting whales.

Lions will attack and kill hyenas whenever possible. Some predators do kill competing predators of the same or other species.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlined33p
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3032381 - 08/21/04 11:54 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Ants, Bacterias or small animals/insects are the species to look at if you will find equivalent examples for your war-model in nature.




Well certainly not my war-model.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3032400 - 08/21/04 12:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

what does your war model include? Weapons of mass destruction, and nuclear threat?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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