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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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war
    #4379762 - 07/07/05 12:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

let's discuss war...

What is your view on war? Is there anything honorable in fighting wars?
Why is personal murder forbiden in our society and murder in large groups alowed and even honored?


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4379783 - 07/07/05 12:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Murder is an organized sport. If everybody engages in it all of the time at random nothing would ever get done. So we have to direct our blood lust carefully. Seriously, though, there is honor in defending one's tribe against extermination. War is a mechanism for survival that is, unfortunately, still necessary. That said...it is worth noting that brutal, unjust things are often done in the name of liberty and survival...some are necessary...some are not.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4379918 - 07/07/05 01:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

War? Huh?


What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.....

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4379945 - 07/07/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It's funny how everyone, while thinking about war first thinks themselfs in the role of the one who is being attacked.

Wars are always started by people ATTACKING someone, while thinking they are defending their interests.

There are very few people in the modern world who thought of themselfs as attackers (hitler did maybe). It seems 90% of all people starting wars think they are defending their own people


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4379967 - 07/07/05 01:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Vikings used to thrist for war, as it was a part of their religion. A large part of it was also decieving people, rather than simply using brute force. There are certain culture which views war as a positive element of existance.


Not saying that I agree with that, but just that there are civilizations which look at war in a good light.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4379991 - 07/07/05 01:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Hitler did not attack the US...Japan did, but the US attacked Germany regardless. I bet they could have cut a deal with the Axis powers. Sometimes attacking is in your best interests. It doesn't matter if you attack or defend as long as you are protecting your tribe.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: war [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4379998 - 07/07/05 01:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HarryFlashmanVC said:
War? Huh?


What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.....




Well its good for putting Germany in there place a handful of decades ago.











It is also good for driving technological innovation wich will someday be the salvation of this planet through our ability to move beyond the confines of this planet.

If we all sat around singing to each other nothing would get done and we'd still be wearing loin cloths and dying at the ripe age of 30.

Also good for establishing a hierarchy. Believe it or not hierarchies are needed or everyone would be a chief and again nothing would get accomplished.


But it is an uncomfortable, ugly SOB isn't it?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: Twirling]
    #4380032 - 07/07/05 01:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You are misinformed about the Norse people (Viking was a term that meant traveler). The Northern Expansion that took place between 793 A.D and 1066 A.D was the result of social upheaval in Scandanavia...not a religious oriented series of attacks, nor a brute display of force. In ancient Norse society farming was the standard means of support. The oldest son inherited the farm so the farm would not be split up. If siblings existed they were often jealous. To placate his brothers, a Norseman would give a sum of money to each brother to use to seek his own fortune. These people would purchase a boat and hire a crew. Then he would put out onto the sea to find his fortune. The reason their raids were so successful was that they had very shallow draft boats that could move up small rivers to attack at unlikely places. Most of the illuminated manuscripts of Europe that survived the Church's book burnings were saved because they had been captured by the Norse who were literate to the last and respected books. All "Vikings" wished to get enough money to become farmers. It is worth noting that the Norse had represenative democracies and gave women full and equal rights. They were an enlightened race taking advantage of turbulent times.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380073 - 07/07/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Hitler did not attack the US...Japan did, but the US attacked Germany regardless. I bet they could have cut a deal with the Axis powers. Sometimes attacking is in your best interests. It doesn't matter if you attack or defend as long as you are protecting your tribe.




I didn't say anything about US


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380080 - 07/07/05 02:16 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

anyway. as for attacking to protect..

I'm not sure I understand. give me an example


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380081 - 07/07/05 02:16 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You said:Wars are always started by people ATTACKING someone, while thinking they are defending their interests.

I was using it as an example of attacking to keep your country safe.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #4380098 - 07/07/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

HarryFlashmanVC said:
War? Huh?


What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.....




Well its good for putting Germany in there place a handful of decades ago.











It is also good for driving technological innovation wich will someday be the salvation of this planet through our ability to move beyond the confines of this planet.

If we all sat around singing to each other nothing would get done and we'd still be wearing loin cloths and dying at the ripe age of 30.

Also good for establishing a hierarchy. Believe it or not hierarchies are needed or everyone would be a chief and again nothing would get accomplished.


But it is an uncomfortable, ugly SOB isn't it?




If we need to kill each other to have better and better technology, then we don't deserve to have progress at all


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380102 - 07/07/05 02:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You said:Wars are always started by people ATTACKING someone, while thinking they are defending their interests.

I was using it as an example of attacking to keep your country safe.




Yes, but if nobody is attacking you, what are you making your country safe from?


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380114 - 07/07/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I did not say I was being attacked...what are you talking about? In the case of World War 2 we were defending our country's interests financially and security wise. Attacking Germany was necessary to accomplish this.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380118 - 07/07/05 02:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not talking about YOU, I'm saying You as in "one", any persone..

if one is not under any threat, how can attacking help his tribe be safe?


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Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380130 - 07/07/05 02:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You can be the first to attack BECAUSE you are under threat. When I was a teenager there was a bully who kept harrassing me verbally every day. He never hit me, but eventually it became necessary for me to kick his ass to stop the harrassment. I could not reason with him as he was unwilling...I attacked him to protect my interests.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380150 - 07/07/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

1. Acoarding to your story you are not the first one that attacked

2. I don't see how threatened you were. Your life was not in danger by words. YOu simply snaped and kicked his ass. That's not survival. That's anger and agression


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380167 - 07/07/05 02:42 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I was the first to physically attack. My response was not a snap response. I tried to be his friend, then I warned him, and then I kicked his ass. My life was not in danger, but neither did I kill him. My measured response was appropriate in scale to the threat.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380183 - 07/07/05 02:45 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

but what threat? Are you easily ofended or what?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380218 - 07/07/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Would you tolerate loud, harsh, verbal abuse on a day to day basis...I won't. I got too much else to do than listen to that kind of shit. In the Army I had a similar problem with a man who COULD kick my ass easily. I eventually won his friendship through reason. He was a good guy...he was just seeing how far I could be pushed.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380273 - 07/07/05 02:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I have tolerated verbal abuse in my past. It hasn't threatened my existence really.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380452 - 07/07/05 03:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It also depends on what the threat is.

If someone is threatning my life or my families life......he will get a "reality check".......up side his head.


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: war [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #4380586 - 07/07/05 04:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HarryFlashmanVC said:
War? Huh?


What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well its good for putting Germany in there place a handful of decades ago.






Think you missed my witticism. Please see http://www.lindqvist.com/index.php?ID=476

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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380602 - 07/07/05 04:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hitler did not attack the US...Japan did, but the US attacked Germany regardless.




It is my understanding that after US declared War on Japan, Germany and Italy declared war on US due to their mutual treaty.

And apart from it being the right thing to fight them there was no possibility of a deal with the Nazi's. Ask the Russians.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: war [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4380612 - 07/07/05 04:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Domesticated primates fling bombs and bullets at each other instead of shit.

Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/07/05 06:00 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: niteowl]
    #4380815 - 07/07/05 05:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Definitely!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4380822 - 07/07/05 05:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I have zero tolerance for abuse. It will be resolved one way or another.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4380961 - 07/07/05 06:12 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

in this thread you are against abuse, and in the other thread you would be all for using power to take food, that's abuse of power too..

The guy abusing kids in highschool is endulging his urge to tease someone at the expense of others. Same way you would engulde your urge to live at the expense of others.
Norwhere does it say that this bully must be satisfied at ALL COST.
Nowhere does it say that you must survive at ALL COST.

The bully is the other side of you and me


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381076 - 07/07/05 06:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"in this thread you are against abuse, and in the other thread you would be all for using power to take food, that's abuse of power too"

That is abuse of my person we are discussing. If you and I are ever trapped in a survival situation you are welcome to all of the abuse. DO I give abuse to others in my life....no! I took much of it as a child due to a condition I had that caused tics and verbal grunts and moans involuntarily. I am very sensitive to not giving just plain old abuse...and I don't tolerate it towards myself. Would I fight for my survival...damn straight.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381104 - 07/07/05 06:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

needs and satisfactions of needs


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381109 - 07/07/05 06:53 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Oh yeah.... I give my life (where dying is a sure thing) only to protect my wife and kids. I would risk my life for others (as a former firefighter/EMT I have done this before), but the odds would have to be in my favor. In the situation you described in the other thread I would fight for my survival.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381113 - 07/07/05 06:54 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

and?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381127 - 07/07/05 06:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
and?




exactly..

the bully makes fun of others becuase he has a need and goes to satisfy it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381143 - 07/07/05 07:02 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Let him ply his trade near me and I will become his bully. I protect myself. If my survival depends on depriving others of their rights...then I am sorry, but my body tells me to survive.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381165 - 07/07/05 07:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

you act like he has less right to satisfy his urge to bully others, than you have right to satisfy your own needs (to survive)

If humans can not control satisfaction of their needs, then at least I can respect your struggle to survive over me, and you can respect the bullys struggle to satisfy the need to make fun of you.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381184 - 07/07/05 07:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

His need conflicts with mine. So I will consider my need first. Look on the bright side here. If the bully later sincerely asked my help for something I would give it willingly. A friend is better than an enemy...even if the friend is an asshole. Maybe he would help me steal some of that food we were discussing.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381188 - 07/07/05 07:15 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

well you can defend yourself if his needs damage you, but you must respect that, because you would do the same


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: war [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4381194 - 07/07/05 07:18 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HarryFlashmanVC said:
Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HarryFlashmanVC said:
War? Huh?


What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well its good for putting Germany in there place a handful of decades ago.






Think you missed my witticism. Please see http://www.lindqvist.com/index.php?ID=476




Ahh, well it was an opening


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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381196 - 07/07/05 07:18 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I respect it...never underestimate a potential enemy...and always have respect for them.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381207 - 07/07/05 07:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

man, you are a lion, like the one in your avatar. With family you are a cat that you can pet, and with enemies you are dangerous


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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381234 - 07/07/05 07:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

My avatar is a caveman...a stupid looking one...that is more like me. He is reinventing the wheel (symbolic). I also have no enemies currently. I have only friends.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381247 - 07/07/05 07:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It looked like a lion to me..

anyway, I didn't mean that in a bad way, more like a funny way


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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381260 - 07/07/05 07:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Click on it....


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381293 - 07/07/05 07:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yea, I did, it does look like a caveman


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381444 - 07/07/05 08:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

War has been part of the human condition across all societies, linked and unlinked throughout human history.

I find that most people that oppose war do so on an entirely emotional level. They lack understanding of it and almost certainly have a utopian view of human nature. But they really get mucky-thinking when they fail to follow their same beliefs when certain hypothetical situations are presented to them.

The best are quasi-pacifists... truly sad thinkers.


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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4381525 - 07/07/05 08:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

being anti war means sitting home watching TV..
being pro-war means running around in rage killing people..

which one of these two actions is the emotional one? I'll give you a clue, on the battlefield, the heart pumps faster, that's the emotional action.

and as for utopian view? Well if all those who protest thought human society is an utopia they would stay home and not protest.
you are not making sense here. Anti-wark folks are the ones that complain a lot, which means their view of society is the complete oposite of utopia

understanding in war?
Well sure, I understand war. A guy decides that Jews are lesser people, and kills millions of them. If I didn't understand him, I'd almost judge him... :rolleyes:


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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381590 - 07/07/05 08:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"being anti war means sitting home watching TV.."

If you are anti-war you should be active in it. There are many activities that an antiwar person might engage in to raise awareness. This is a respectable course of action anti-war does not equal apathy. Be a warrior in regards to it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4381654 - 07/07/05 09:15 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
being anti war means sitting home watching TV..
being pro-war means running around in rage killing people..

which one of these two actions is the emotional one? I'll give you a clue, on the battlefield, the heart pumps faster, that's the emotional action.

and as for utopian view? Well if all those who protest thought human society is an utopia they would stay home and not protest.
you are not making sense here. Anti-wark folks are the ones that complain a lot, which means their view of society is the complete oposite of utopia

understanding in war?
Well sure, I understand war. A guy decides that Jews are lesser people, and kills millions of them. If I didn't understand him, I'd almost judge him... :rolleyes:




I was hoping to get an actual response on pacifism or some philosophical bridge from reality to world peace. I honestly can't pick out anything to even analyze, most parts were just sad. Oh well.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4382973 - 07/08/05 06:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

well you can try to restore credibility to your previous statements


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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4383033 - 07/08/05 07:25 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

How about starting off with my first statement.

War has been part of the human condition across all societies, linked and unlinked throughout human history.

That is credible. You can forget the rest if you want, it was just a prelude to what I would encounter when the discussion got good.

But anyway, lets stop talking about bullies and name calling. Lets discuss war.

I already stated my position that it is part of human nature and is needed to survive. I have lots of history to back this up.

What can you bring to the table regarding peace? Give it a go.


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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4383388 - 07/08/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

you don't have history on your side.
In times of war more people die then in times of peace, I think that is pretty clear.

What kid of survival is that? Millions jews killed vs. the number of jews killed by natural death

That is accelerated death, not survival


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4383440 - 07/08/05 10:23 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

you don't have history on your side.
In times of war more people die then in times of peace, I think that is pretty clear.


What do you mean I don't have history on my side? What side are you talking about? I want clarity. Do you have an argument? Do you have anything to say other than war makes daddy go bye-bye?


What kid of survival is that? Millions jews killed vs. the number of jews killed by natural death

That is accelerated death, not survival


Ugh... If this is what I have to contend with then its not even worth my effort. I'll give you one more chance.


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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4383455 - 07/08/05 10:32 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure I understand,
To you death is not an argument against something?
Are you saying I should stop talking about death in a discussion about war?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4383462 - 07/08/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm saying I want a position... or something resembling a position.


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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4383469 - 07/08/05 10:36 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

what do you mean by "position"?


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Re: war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4384168 - 07/08/05 01:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You are misinformed about the Norse people (Viking was a term that meant traveler). The Northern Expansion that took place between 793 A.D and 1066 A.D was the result of social upheaval in Scandanavia...not a religious oriented series of attacks, nor a brute display of force. In ancient Norse society farming was the standard means of support. The oldest son inherited the farm so the farm would not be split up. If siblings existed they were often jealous. To placate his brothers, a Norseman would give a sum of money to each brother to use to seek his own fortune. These people would purchase a boat and hire a crew. Then he would put out onto the sea to find his fortune. The reason their raids were so successful was that they had very shallow draft boats that could move up small rivers to attack at unlikely places. Most of the illuminated manuscripts of Europe that survived the Church's book burnings were saved because they had been captured by the Norse who were literate to the last and respected books. All "Vikings" wished to get enough money to become farmers. It is worth noting that the Norse had represenative democracies and gave women full and equal rights. They were an enlightened race taking advantage of turbulent times.




My understanding is that Norse mythology/religion is divided into farming and war. Each class having its own afterlife - for the warrior, it's Valhalla with Odin, fighting battles every night and then being reborn the next day so they could fight again. Farmers would end up with Thor, who represented farming, among other things. I didn't mean to imply that the Norse people were barbarians who simply looked to destroy, but rather that Norse mythology values battling and war. Again, this is not to say that Norse people were reckless barbarians, and in fact, Thor often was portrayed as a bit of an oaf for wanting to fight straightforwardly, in a brutal fashion. Odin was valued because he placed deception and trickery as ways of winning battles. Furthermore, Norse people believed their death fate was predestined (at least the date was), which alleviated the fear of dying in battle. If you were to die in a battle, you would have died some other way if you didn't fight that day.


Now this is from what I learned in an introductory religion course. I'm sure it's a different perspective than a historical examination, but what I was implying was that there are/were cultures which place war in a positive context.

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Re: war [Re: Twirling]
    #4384382 - 07/08/05 03:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, cause they totally had to go to war with iraq or the terrorists would win, duh.

...

it seams we're in a time where war is nothing more than a business. we should be smart enough by now to see our planet as a whole, and to start looking into the rest of the universe. though that will lead to more war (star wars woo!) at least we won't be killing eachother.

there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings though, we just aren't there yet. or we'll never get there and just kill eachother off eventually.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: chucksteak]
    #4384447 - 07/08/05 03:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/08/05 03:50 PM)

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Offlinechucksteak
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384468 - 07/08/05 03:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i just now noticed the grenades in your sig...

that picture is really telling of the situation we're in now. we're sitting around thinking and saying words of peace while surrounded by explosives, ready to go off at any time. but how can we fight back? if we use force it just brings more down on us. that's the way it seams to go though, somebody says "hey look at this great idea i have... no, don't like? BAM!!" we get frustrated that we're maybe not right or that they don't get it, and violence is the easiest way to deal with it. the ego is so destructive, such a curse.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384471 - 07/08/05 04:01 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)


"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"


Neat catchy phrases are really effective in erasing war forever!

Seriously, since intelligent people don't need to kill eachother, we can just stop.

War is now over. I hope your stupid people enjoyed it while it lasted!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4384480 - 07/08/05 04:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Who said anything about erasing war? I am talking about real intelligence, which combines  smarts and emotional maturity.  Almost no humans are intelligent under my defination.

The result is war. That is the evolutionaly state of humanity at the present time. But it does not have to be yours personally. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384489 - 07/08/05 04:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Who said anything about erasing war? I am talking about real intelligence, which combines  smarts and emotional maturity.  Almost no humans are intelligent under my defination.

The result is war. That is the evolutionaly state of humanity at the present time. But it does not have to be yours personally. :mushroom2:




Well, alright. Are you at that evolution of real intelligence where you wouldn't support or participate in war? What about violence at all?


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Offlinechucksteak
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4384512 - 07/08/05 04:18 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

war is just a big dick waving contest. well, usually there's the dick wavers and the other side that gets squashed. its fucking stupid, the decisions are made by people who will only see the money, none of the blood shed. i'm not trying to say humans can get rid of war. i'm saying it's proof that humans are fucking stupid.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: chucksteak]
    #4384528 - 07/08/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

chucksteak said:
war is just a big dick waving contest. well, usually there's the dick wavers and the other side that gets squashed. its fucking stupid, the decisions are made by people who will only see the money, none of the blood shed. i'm not trying to say humans can get rid of war. i'm saying it's proof that humans are fucking stupid.





All war is stupid. We got this part down pat.

If Japan invaded our country tomorrow, and were slaughtering everyone they saw as they made their way across the country, would you fight or call them stupid poopy heads?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4384541 - 07/08/05 04:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

No I am not. But I am heading in that direction. There is a lot of things I won't go to war for that I would have 10 years ago.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384551 - 07/08/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No I am not. But I am heading in that direction. There is a lot of things I won't go to war for that I would have 10 years ago.




So you believe war is necessary and you admit to be willing to participate in it? See, that wasn't so hard. Reality is rough, but you gotta face up to it. Good job!


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Offlinechucksteak
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384565 - 07/08/05 04:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

then i think we agree looner, i understand it's necassary for protecting yourself, but it's stupid that any protecting would need to be done. but such is the way of human life...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4384583 - 07/08/05 04:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I never said war was necessary! You're putting words into my mouth. What I said was there were things I would go to war for.  :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4384590 - 07/08/05 04:40 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

chucksteak said:
war is just a big dick waving contest. well, usually there's the dick wavers and the other side that gets squashed. its fucking stupid, the decisions are made by people who will only see the money, none of the blood shed. i'm not trying to say humans can get rid of war. i'm saying it's proof that humans are fucking stupid.





All war is stupid. We got this part down pat.

If Japan invaded our country tomorrow, and were slaughtering everyone they saw as they made their way across the country, would you fight or call them stupid poopy heads?




so now, are you for war or against war? first you say war is necessary for whatever reason, now you say it's stupid. What will it be?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: chucksteak]
    #4384595 - 07/08/05 04:42 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

chucksteak said:
then i think we agree looner, i understand it's necassary for protecting yourself, but it's stupid that any protecting would need to be done. but such is the way of human life...




protecting yourself agains who?aliens?

So far only humans engaged in wars. Who are they protectking themselfs against?
Nobody. They are killing each other, and that's stupid.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4384613 - 07/08/05 04:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

ok, let's analise the whole necessarity of war..

ok, now, there's me (oldwoodspecter), there's Icelander and there's looner. We are human society.

So we all live on this field near a forest for 20 years.

And then looner comes one day and says, hey guy we have been living 20 years in peace, isn't it time to have war? War IS necessary after all.

Then we say, YEA, reality is so cruel, but we must face it, let's go boys.

And then we go on the field and have a fist fight.


What started the war? What necessarity?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4384636 - 07/08/05 04:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Well Young Wood,  What if we were running out of food on the 20 acres, or water. and most of it was in my corner, where I hang. Only enough for two. What then? :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384648 - 07/08/05 05:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

oh puhlese..

there is enough food and water on earth for everyone, always has been


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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4384653 - 07/08/05 05:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Always? In all places? At all times?

You know I am not defending anything here. I just want to take a good look at this.

So puhlese indulge me. :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384661 - 07/08/05 05:12 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

On earth in general.

The problem with lack of food in some countreys is not that there is not enough food for everyone on earth, the problem is that some have more than they need and others don't have enough. If all resources were equaly distributed in the entire earth, all would have enough food watter, and their life would be satisfactionary.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinechucksteak
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4384665 - 07/08/05 05:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I never said war was necessary! You're putting words into my mouth. What I said was there were things I would go to war for.  :wink:




haha, i was replying to looner.


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DON'T PANIC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: chucksteak]
    #4384669 - 07/08/05 05:18 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So was I  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinechucksteak
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4384676 - 07/08/05 05:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

chucksteak said:
then i think we agree looner, i understand it's necassary for protecting yourself, but it's stupid that any protecting would need to be done. but such is the way of human life...




protecting yourself agains who?aliens?

So far only humans engaged in wars. Who are they protectking themselfs against?
Nobody. They are killing each other, and that's stupid.




protecting ourselves from other humans... you know, like hitler...and stuff. if some country just started attacking yours of course war is the only way, and is necassary, to stay alive and hopefully get rid of the enemy. of course it would be great if nobody attacked anybody, but it just doesn't work that way for us.

what the problem is though, is that the USA has no reason to blow anybody else up, they are the most powerful nation, but they still see fit to throw their wait around. it's all about money for them, not protection, which is really fucked up.


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DON'T PANIC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: chucksteak]
    #4384690 - 07/08/05 05:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

When I say "we" I don't mean a group of humans. I mean US HUMANS.

Why the need to separate humans to sides in discussions?

Hitler is one of us. When hitler started killing, WE started killing, and his shame is the shame of humanity.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinechucksteak
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4384755 - 07/08/05 05:56 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
When I say "we" I don't mean a group of humans. I mean US HUMANS.

Why the need to separate humans to sides in discussions?

Hitler is one of us. When hitler started killing, WE started killing, and his shame is the shame of humanity.




well, i agree, humans in general are worthless fucktards. but then i have no idea what you're getting at. some humans are bad and have wars... we disagree with war... doesn't change reality any. we need to seperate humans into sides because there are 2 obvious sides here. people who are into war, and people who are not.

:shrug:


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DON'T PANIC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: chucksteak]
    #4384768 - 07/08/05 06:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

looner does not dissagree with war. He seems to be the one among humans that starts wars because he thinks it is necessary


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4385124 - 07/08/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
On earth in general.

The problem with lack of food in some countreys is not that there is not enough food for everyone on earth, the problem is that some have more than they need and others don't have enough. If all resources were equaly distributed in the entire earth, all would have enough food watter, and their life would be satisfactionary.




I agree with you here. This does not mean everyone should have exactally the same material life, but there is no reason some should suffer in starvation and ignorance. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4385198 - 07/08/05 08:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Not GIVEN the same life.

Given basic things that are needed for survival, given freedom, and given a equal CHANCE to build their own material life acoarding to their will power.

Some have chance to have their hard work pay off.
Some don't. Some work hard for survival only.

For example. A high-end fashion photographer gets $70 000 per day for a fashion ad campaign. Makes two campaigns in a year and can live the rest of the year doing nothing.
He secured his year of life in a week or two.
But of course he has "the eye"

Meanwhile, a doctor in some godforsakened african country works his ass of trying to save a few people. He works the entire year, and gets payed barely to get his and his families primary needs satisfied, like having clothes, food, education etc.

do they have an equal chance?

nope.

doctor is really doing something that is hard to do, and has probably done all that he can to progress in such an environment (learning to be a doctor in such conditions is probably not the same as taking coffy breaks in university cantina in the west world)

1000 a day and all the fame he gets would be just fine for the photographer. Anual million dollars saved on him would be quite adequate to give normal life to 10-20 african doctors


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4385233 - 07/08/05 08:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Very good points.  :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4385295 - 07/08/05 09:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
let's discuss war...

What is your view on war? Is there anything honorable in fighting wars?
Why is personal murder forbiden in our society and murder in large groups alowed and even honored?




My view is that war is a necessary element of human interaction and will continue to be so till end of humanity. Human nature is driven by power, and hence groups, nations, tribes..etc are based on this fundamental tenant of our existence, and carry it out on a scale larger than the individual. Adapt to this reality or die. That has been the law of the land for thousands of years. Groups have been entirely annihilated from the face of the earth because they didn't have the vigor or strength to defeat their enemies.

There is honor in war. Whether or not the war is justifible in any sense of the word, to be able to be courageous enough to give your life for something that you may not live to see is the ultimate sacrifice. It requires courage, which is a pre-requisite for self-respect.

Murder in society and "murder" when pertaining to war are two entirely different things.


There we go. Obviously no one wants to get into the nitty gritty of war-peace-right-wrong argument, so I'll just answer your questions and go from there.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4385309 - 07/08/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Human nature is driven by power, and hence groups, nations, tribes..etc are based on this fundamental tenant of our existence, and carry it out on a scale larger than the individual.




Existence before essence. There are certain factors that effect human behaviors, but none of them appear absolute or static.

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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4385956 - 07/09/05 02:32 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
being anti war means sitting home watching TV..
being pro-war means running around in rage killing people..

which one of these two actions is the emotional one? I'll give you a clue, on the battlefield, the heart pumps faster, that's the emotional action.

and as for utopian view? Well if all those who protest thought human society is an utopia they would stay home and not protest.
you are not making sense here. Anti-wark folks are the ones that complain a lot, which means their view of society is the complete oposite of utopia

understanding in war?
Well sure, I understand war. A guy decides that Jews are lesser people, and kills millions of them. If I didn't understand him, I'd almost judge him... :rolleyes:




the emotion comes in because they can't stomach it an get upset when confronted with it.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4385960 - 07/09/05 02:36 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"




It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
    #4386122 - 07/09/05 04:59 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
let's discuss war...

What is your view on war? Is there anything honorable in fighting wars?
Why is personal murder forbiden in our society and murder in large groups alowed and even honored?




My view is that war is a necessary element of human interaction and will continue to be so till end of humanity. Human nature is driven by power, and hence groups, nations, tribes..etc are based on this fundamental tenant of our existence, and carry it out on a scale larger than the individual. Adapt to this reality or die. That has been the law of the land for thousands of years. Groups have been entirely annihilated from the face of the earth because they didn't have the vigor or strength to defeat their enemies.

There is honor in war. Whether or not the war is justifible in any sense of the word, to be able to be courageous enough to give your life for something that you may not live to see is the ultimate sacrifice. It requires courage, which is a pre-requisite for self-respect.

Murder in society and "murder" when pertaining to war are two entirely different things.


There we go. Obviously no one wants to get into the nitty gritty of war-peace-right-wrong argument, so I'll just answer your questions and go from there.




murder is also about power. For example, you can assasinate someone and get his high place in a company.

Why is murder so different from starting a war?


Have you ever seen what people do in wars? It is more cruel than any murder in the age of peace. War is driven by hate.
The poor guy in the threnches is not thinking about power, because he will get nothing from this war exept PTSP. All he is thinking about is hate towards the enemy.
Such hate has done all kinds of horrible things.
Infants killed, people slaughtered with knifes, mutilated corpses, real butchery, mass unmarked graves, concentration camps in which people are forced to eat their own shit (literally).

This does not happen on the side of the attacker only. It happens on both sides ALWAYS. Defense ALWAYS turns into offense and hate.

When there was war here in Croatia. We were being attacked by Serbian forces. And of course the early post-war propaganda was that we were all heroes and they were all evil.
Now 15 years later, all kinds of shit swimed to the surface and it turns out they were no worse than we were. Both of us were savages. Both with the illusion that we are on the "right" side.

You go on and on about some ideals, human nature etc etc.

Tell me one good reason to kill infants because they belong to one race.
Is that really honorable?

p.s. don't try to pull something like: "that is a war crime etc."
It is a part of every war, savegery. Germans, Americans, Vikings, Huns, Croatians, Serbs...they all do the same things in war, because they are animals. War crimes ARE a part of WAR


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #4386123 - 07/09/05 05:02 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
being anti war means sitting home watching TV..
being pro-war means running around in rage killing people..

which one of these two actions is the emotional one? I'll give you a clue, on the battlefield, the heart pumps faster, that's the emotional action.

and as for utopian view? Well if all those who protest thought human society is an utopia they would stay home and not protest.
you are not making sense here. Anti-wark folks are the ones that complain a lot, which means their view of society is the complete oposite of utopia

understanding in war?
Well sure, I understand war. A guy decides that Jews are lesser people, and kills millions of them. If I didn't understand him, I'd almost judge him... :rolleyes:




the emotion comes in because they can't stomach it an get upset when confronted with it.




well, I'd rather get upset by war then feel a duty to kill my friends and brothers.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #4386124 - 07/09/05 05:03 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"




It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.




no, but intelligent people can take over and rule the stupid ones


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #4386218 - 07/09/05 06:52 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"




It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.




Well no one knows what there will always be.  Maybe for war to wane we would have to see a lot more intelligence in humanity then we have today. 

No I'm not expecting war to go away anytime soon. Really war is no longer my business. I really have little interest in trying to change my fellow man. I have interest in changing how I live my life amounst those who choose to see conflict as an important part of life. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: Icelander]
    #4386231 - 07/09/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

nobody can change the world, all you can do is offer your hand to those around you. That little bit of love will make a little clean spot on the dirty window on humanity. It will not clean the window but it will make other see through window to the other side and maybe wish more of the window is clean


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4386239 - 07/09/05 07:17 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Good Morning Old Wood Spector :heart:  It's about 6am  here. Most are still in bed and I am about to walk my dog in the hills.

You are right my friend.  Love is the only answer to war. :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4427670 - 07/20/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"




It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.




no, but intelligent people can take over and rule the stupid ones




thant would be done via a war I guess.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: war [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #4428505 - 07/20/05 01:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"




It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.




no, but intelligent people can take over and rule the stupid ones




thant would be done via a war I guess.




no through education


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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