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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650995 - 09/12/05 03:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't say they prevail, I said they exist


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4651104 - 09/12/05 04:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"I didn't say they prevail, I said they exist"

Well...

"Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?"

You asked a question. I answered.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Sycronica]
    #4651182 - 09/12/05 04:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You can kick the stray dog, or you can feed it. 2 possible reactions to a situation, each on the far ends of the spectrum.




Or you could grab the dog, flip it over, shove your knee in its tummy, break it's front paws to its sides, grab its throat with one hand so he doesnt bark too hard, reach for your pocketknife with your free hand, slide it under hids fur and start scraping over its ribs and take a not too spectacular satisfaction in its writhing.

Then you are a sociopath.


This is what sociopaths do, and prefer to do to humans, in the true extreme of the spectrum: deriving a degree of satisfaction in committing breathtaking cruelties. Every neighborhood has a guy who poisons the doves and strangles the cats. If you're a pet lover you're aware of that. Whether it's a quick kick to break a paw or elasborate torture - it's these people we're talking about.

You've got acquired sociopathy (the 3/100) and born psychopathy (the 1/100) In both cases you've got a person that doesnt think like you or me. Lack of emotion, lack of empathy, strongly fixated on getting what they want and a general inclination to hate and cruelty.

The medical referencebooks are "politically correct". These people fill our jails and likely were an important part of why the justice/penal system was created.

Most of them can maintain a balanced state. Should something happen towards anarchy however (rise of the German Nazi Party, the New Orleans some lose balance and these are the ones sniping and committing atrocities. You can bet a very few people *went to New Orleans* after the hurricane for the purpose of fucking people up in the anarchy of a disaster area. You don't hear that on the news but if you thoroughly read up on psychopathy/sociopathy you'll discover the "real story" behind much violence reported in the news media etc.

The 15% of soldiers Looner mentioned were the ones that shot *in the direction* of the enemy. They didnt take an aimed shot every opportunity they got. And they got fucked up mentally just like the majority who didnt fire.

In vietnam there were 50.000 american bullets fired for every vietcong killed. In WW2 plane-to-plane dogfights less than 5% of pilots did more than 95% of the killing. Think about it!
This isnt a matter of competence, it's *ability to actually kill*.

I pulled those facts from the Nastional Geographic Channel documentary "The Truth About Killing" I saw some two weeks ago, and they quoted one of the most thorough investigations within the military which was the basis of modern "effective" combat training. It also mentioned the majority of soldiers crapped and pissed their pants when the bullets really were flying. Contrary to a sig I saw: "actual combat is not even close to XboX"

Yes if someone did bad things to your mom you would perhaps buy a gun and blow his brains out. Shortly thereafter you would discover it doesnt feel as good as you imagined. Later on, months later perhaps it's become appearant that you're mentally screwed up because of it.
A guy like you or me would have a pretty slim chance in a war situation versus a psychopath because while you are busy diluting the crap in your pants with piss the sociopath does what he does best: calmly turn you inside out and enjoy it.

Most sociopaths in peacetime are relatively non-suspect. Moody perhaps, or "a real bastard" in a run of the mill way.. But some of them some of the time "snap" and commit atrocities that you got to go to disgusting websites for, because you won't ever see those on the news.

Sociopaths are burdened people, but if they go too far they should be prevented from committing such harm in the future.

A sociopath who crossed the line isn't "crazy" and in a weird way perhaps not even a "criminal", but rather is a predator whereas we are sheep. I think as an alternative for lifelong imprisonment it would be best to thoroughly fence in a large stretch of land and let them live there in a society they themselves create. Just as there are less shootinmgs if not a few but rather everybody owns a gun, there will be less killing in a pack of wolves rather than in a predator-and-prey enviroment. It's more humane than life imprisonment and capital punishment in my view is not an option on this side of the fence.

Sociopaths in war are superior killers, but a good soldier is lawful, humane, obeys orders and is a team player, and these qualities aren't the sociopath's strongpoints.


--------------------
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higher knowledge starts here

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4651253 - 09/12/05 04:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I didn't say they prevail, I said they exist"

Well...

"Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?"

You asked a question. I answered.




I forgot how I composed my first post


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4651449 - 09/12/05 05:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Stabbing some guy in the back so that you can steal his wallet and eat for another day isn't going to ensure your survival tomorrow when some family member of his hunts you down.



It will ensure your survival if a family member doesn't come. Would you rather starve to death?

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Creating a world of war simply increases the threats to the survival of one's own child.



Unless there is no child. In any case, it ensures that the survivors are better suited to carry on humanity and deserve their existence.


Quote:

Veritas said:
The will to power over others, as opposed to power for others, is not based upon expansion or "getting things done," but fear that you are not worthy of Love.



Upon what evidence do you base your assertions?

Quote:

Veritas said:
Greed does not create a product, it merely perpetuates the illusion of lack and loneliness.



You do not believe that anything has ever been created out of greed? If someone has nothing and nobody how is it an illusion? Why can greed(which can drive determination) not be used to overcome lack and loneliness?


Quote:

MJF said:
As much as our army may seem completely volunteered...our soldiers are deceived by recruiters



How are they deceived?

Quote:

MJF said:
and in many cases they have been brought up to think they must join the military because "what else are they supposed to do?"



Who do you know that was brought up to think "What else am I supposed to do?"?
Upbringing has little to do with it. Not being able to find a job that pays livable wages or not being able to afford college has a greater impact in the decision process.
Tell me, what else are they supposed to do?


Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
yea but in war they get a pat on the back and for it,



Soldiers do not get a pat on the back for killing civilians.

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Sociopaths in time of peace lave less chance of doing damage because they don't have thir own rocket launcher.



It's not that hard to make a bomb that will inflict way more damage than a rocket launcher. A person(civilian or soldier) bent on injuring the innocent will get it done one way or another.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4651719 - 09/12/05 06:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers. Those who espouse love will come and go, but those who espouse hatred will remain faithful forever.




Upon what evidence do you base your assertions?




It's rather basic logic to me; I don't think I made any remarks that couldn't be verified by simply thinking about them. In a world without hatred, humanity as a species probably wouldn't be nearly as advanced as we are today, since much of our technology originates in warfare and battle. It's only afterwards that the vast amount of money spent in warfare technology is taken up by the common civilian to enhance everyday life, but survival and expansion have almost always come first.

In the overall history of humanity, there is the occassional person who implements love into many of their actions, but a lot of time these delusional people are quickly killed off. Those who espouse hatred are often those who rise to power and end up in the positions of control, making hatred a more useful emotion in overall politics and affairs of the world than love in my opinion.

Quote:

IMO Hatred = contraction/rejection of self and others,
Love = expansion/acceptance of self and others.




How does hatred lead to the rejection of self? It's simply one useful emotion among many; both love and hatred in the end strive for the same unified goal of survival, which transcends the simple notion of the self.

Quote:

Perhaps the sterotypical peace-and-love hippies of the 60's are not as evident as they were during the Vietnam War, but belief in Love and the creative forces of Life has not "died out." Far from it.

The will to power over others, as opposed to power for others, is not based upon expansion or "getting things done," but fear that you are not worthy of Love. Greed does not create a product, it merely perpetuates the illusion of lack and loneliness.




I see people espousing "love" all the time, as if it was some all-permeating consciousness throughout the universe, but luckily human actions do not reflect this. It's much more efficient to judge a species by its overall actions than the words some of its members speak, and in the majority of cases I only see love where it will enhance the person's survival. Jesus may have been delusional or had some genetic flaw, but altruism will not survive very long before its exploited by the selfish individuals, therefore making the altruist who loves others for no reason die out rather quickly. For every Jesus we find, 100 Judas-like individuals will be right behind him.

Quote:

My subjective experience has taught me that a life of hatred creates only deadness, while a life of Love and Joy reveals the beauty and grace of being alive.




Deadness eh? Most people with hatred are still alive; many of these people, if chaos or fighting ever broke out, would be much better prepared for their own survival than any fool espousing Absolute Love in my opinion. Delusional beliefs about love can flourish during times of peace and prosperity, but once these periods end humans revert back to a more truthful stage of existence.

Love, like any emotion, is only useful as far as it ensures survival. By the evidence I've seen, love is not consciousness, love is not a force, love isn't even mystical; it's simply another chemical reaction in the mammalian brain. Love is useful for unifying during certain periods, but when the period changes, different weapons for survival must be used, and hatred is one of the most effective of these in any period. Love is used for reproduction and stability, but hatred is used for expansion, warfare and domination, which then leads to newer technology and products. Both are useful to human survival; I don't deny that. But on the whole, hatred is vastly underrated compared to love, and in many aspects, hatred is more useful.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4654577 - 09/13/05 11:20 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ravus, your cynicism is staggering and chilling. I believe you when you say that you see the difference between love and hatred being one of effectiveness, and I feel very sad about that.

Rather than address each of your counterpoints individually, I will ask the question which drove my initial response:

What makes us want to be alive?

IMO survival is overrated if it ensures more years experiencing the world as a cold, meaningless place.

"By the evidence I've seen, love is not consciousness, love is not a force, love isn't even mystical; it's simply another chemical reaction in the mammalian brain."

I'm not sure what "evidence" you may be referring to, beyond basic neurological research? My own experience, which contradicted my original scientific stance, reveals that Love is consciousness, and is the Life force which powers this whole show.

Perhaps it would be more descriptive/accurate to call it Tao?

Romantic love, hippie love, parental love, etc...are all tempered human expressions of this force, but NOT the whole enchilada.


Edited by Veritas (09/13/05 11:51 AM)

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4654809 - 09/13/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
IMO survival is overrated if it ensures more years experiencing the world as a cold, meaningless place.



That's sad. Maybe moving to a more temperate climate is in order. Meaning is a value that each of us assigns to this place (or not). Meaning is not an externality but a subjective concept, it's worth only being realized in the eye of the beholder.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4654854 - 09/13/05 12:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

My point was not that I see this world as a cold and meaningless place, but that focusing on hatred and the mechanistic aspects of survival promotes this variety of subjective experience.

Maybe I'm wrong, and Love is NOT the force that powers the Universe.  However, my life experience is improved by holding this belief.  I feel more joy, more pleasure, more delight when I am focused on Love rather than hatred.  That's the sort of mistake I am very willing to make! :wink:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4654902 - 09/13/05 12:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No, you are not wrong.

I recently did read...live and believe stem from the same word-roots...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4655238 - 09/13/05 01:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
That may be a correct assumption, however the popularity of the notion is no determinant of whether or not it is the correct or best way to organize things. It is also irrelevant to whether or not people should be blind tools for those who give orders.




Do you have a better way of organizing things?

I think it is relevant. A soldier joins the military making the conscious decision to serve his country. That is his decision. There is nothing blind about it.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
So, people should follow orders because the system says people should follow orders. Hmmm, very deep.




If they choose to follow orders, then they should follow orders.

Again, I agree with decisions made at the top, and carried out at the bottom. What system do you like?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655253 - 09/13/05 01:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
My point was not that I see this world as a cold and meaningless place, but that focusing on hatred and the mechanistic aspects of survival promotes this variety of subjective experience.

Maybe I'm wrong, and Love is NOT the force that powers the Universe.  However, my life experience is improved by holding this belief.  I feel more joy, more pleasure, more delight when I am focused on Love rather than hatred.  That's the sort of mistake I am very willing to make! :wink:




Emotion is a tool that can be used by individuals and groups. When you understand and utilize the tool to your (or your groups) benefit, then it has done its job.

Forget about cold, meaningless, or sad. It also has nothing to do with being cynical, but opening up the possibilities for a human being to utilize all power available to him.

It is an empowering view!


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655294 - 09/13/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Love is a tool? How is that NOT a cynical POV?

Utilizing the power available to you is a successful strategy so long as the price is not your enjoyment of life. In my observations of others, I have seen again and again that anger and hatred burn bright and at great personal cost.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655309 - 09/13/05 02:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
In my observations of others, I have seen again and again that anger and hatred burn bright and at great personal cost.




You may be right. But not everyone is enlightened and can use hatred responsibly.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655314 - 09/13/05 02:07 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

How would one use hatred responsibly?

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655318 - 09/13/05 02:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ravus already outlined some methods.

It is great in a time of war.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655327 - 09/13/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, OK. I thought you had something different to say.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655436 - 09/13/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Love is a tool? How is that NOT a cynical POV?




From a Darwinistic point of view, everything is a tool. If it can be exploited for success, it will be, and love is very easily exploited. Look at how many people use other caring human beings, how evolution has created successful family structures and sexual relationships revolving around love. I don't know what your definition of love is, but it must be drastically different from the common definition to think that it's not another tool of Darwinism.

Quote:

Utilizing the power available to you is a successful strategy so long as the price is not your enjoyment of life. In my observations of others, I have seen again and again that anger and hatred burn bright and at great personal cost.




Enjoyment is simply another tool that tries to set humans on the right path. Naturally, if a human has food, water, warmth, shelter and other humans, he will enjoy himself. Modern developed society has distorted enjoyment into some impossible goal for many since they hand people everything, making them think basic comfort is the norm, but in nature this is not the case.

In my opinion, it is better for one to use anger and hatred to burn bright and leave a deep mark on the world, than it is for one to use love and fade out without giving anything of any real significance. Greatness lies from exploiting all tools handed to you, not just one or two pleasant ones.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4655464 - 09/13/05 02:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, let's assume that Darwin had everything figured out. Not that he was a philosopher, or probably even interested in applying his scientific research to the "big questions."

If you buy that, I have this plumber friend who has solved the whole cold fusion dilemma. After all, his years of work with toilet snaking amply prepared him to understand atomic energy.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655483 - 09/13/05 02:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But not everyone is enlightened and can use hatred responsibly.




I don't think that a sociopath, once unhinged, can *control* his hastred, and that makes it useless because keeping your head clear gets the job done. A sociopath will not watch his fellow soldier's back... well, to locate the best vertebrae to shove a knife between, perhaps.
A sociopath in your platoon is having a hostile in your platoon. They can turn on their fellows unpredictably.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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