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OldWoodSpecter
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looner does not dissagree with war. He seems to be the one among humans that starts wars because he thinks it is necessary
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: On earth in general.
The problem with lack of food in some countreys is not that there is not enough food for everyone on earth, the problem is that some have more than they need and others don't have enough. If all resources were equaly distributed in the entire earth, all would have enough food watter, and their life would be satisfactionary.
I agree with you here. This does not mean everyone should have exactally the same material life, but there is no reason some should suffer in starvation and ignorance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
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Not GIVEN the same life.
Given basic things that are needed for survival, given freedom, and given a equal CHANCE to build their own material life acoarding to their will power.
Some have chance to have their hard work pay off. Some don't. Some work hard for survival only.
For example. A high-end fashion photographer gets $70 000 per day for a fashion ad campaign. Makes two campaigns in a year and can live the rest of the year doing nothing. He secured his year of life in a week or two. But of course he has "the eye"
Meanwhile, a doctor in some godforsakened african country works his ass of trying to save a few people. He works the entire year, and gets payed barely to get his and his families primary needs satisfied, like having clothes, food, education etc.
do they have an equal chance?
nope.
doctor is really doing something that is hard to do, and has probably done all that he can to progress in such an environment (learning to be a doctor in such conditions is probably not the same as taking coffy breaks in university cantina in the west world)
1000 a day and all the fame he gets would be just fine for the photographer. Anual million dollars saved on him would be quite adequate to give normal life to 10-20 african doctors
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Very good points.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: let's discuss war...
What is your view on war? Is there anything honorable in fighting wars? Why is personal murder forbiden in our society and murder in large groups alowed and even honored?
My view is that war is a necessary element of human interaction and will continue to be so till end of humanity. Human nature is driven by power, and hence groups, nations, tribes..etc are based on this fundamental tenant of our existence, and carry it out on a scale larger than the individual. Adapt to this reality or die. That has been the law of the land for thousands of years. Groups have been entirely annihilated from the face of the earth because they didn't have the vigor or strength to defeat their enemies.
There is honor in war. Whether or not the war is justifible in any sense of the word, to be able to be courageous enough to give your life for something that you may not live to see is the ultimate sacrifice. It requires courage, which is a pre-requisite for self-respect.
Murder in society and "murder" when pertaining to war are two entirely different things.
There we go. Obviously no one wants to get into the nitty gritty of war-peace-right-wrong argument, so I'll just answer your questions and go from there.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
#4385309 - 07/08/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said: Human nature is driven by power, and hence groups, nations, tribes..etc are based on this fundamental tenant of our existence, and carry it out on a scale larger than the individual.
Existence before essence. There are certain factors that effect human behaviors, but none of them appear absolute or static.
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mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: being anti war means sitting home watching TV.. being pro-war means running around in rage killing people..
which one of these two actions is the emotional one? I'll give you a clue, on the battlefield, the heart pumps faster, that's the emotional action.
and as for utopian view? Well if all those who protest thought human society is an utopia they would stay home and not protest. you are not making sense here. Anti-wark folks are the ones that complain a lot, which means their view of society is the complete oposite of utopia
understanding in war? Well sure, I understand war. A guy decides that Jews are lesser people, and kills millions of them. If I didn't understand him, I'd almost judge him...
the emotion comes in because they can't stomach it an get upset when confronted with it.
-------------------- Be all and you'll be to end all
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mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
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Quote:
Icelander said:
"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"
It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.
-------------------- Be all and you'll be to end all
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: war [Re: looner2]
#4386122 - 07/09/05 04:59 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: let's discuss war...
What is your view on war? Is there anything honorable in fighting wars? Why is personal murder forbiden in our society and murder in large groups alowed and even honored?
My view is that war is a necessary element of human interaction and will continue to be so till end of humanity. Human nature is driven by power, and hence groups, nations, tribes..etc are based on this fundamental tenant of our existence, and carry it out on a scale larger than the individual. Adapt to this reality or die. That has been the law of the land for thousands of years. Groups have been entirely annihilated from the face of the earth because they didn't have the vigor or strength to defeat their enemies.
There is honor in war. Whether or not the war is justifible in any sense of the word, to be able to be courageous enough to give your life for something that you may not live to see is the ultimate sacrifice. It requires courage, which is a pre-requisite for self-respect.
Murder in society and "murder" when pertaining to war are two entirely different things.
There we go. Obviously no one wants to get into the nitty gritty of war-peace-right-wrong argument, so I'll just answer your questions and go from there.
murder is also about power. For example, you can assasinate someone and get his high place in a company.
Why is murder so different from starting a war?
Have you ever seen what people do in wars? It is more cruel than any murder in the age of peace. War is driven by hate. The poor guy in the threnches is not thinking about power, because he will get nothing from this war exept PTSP. All he is thinking about is hate towards the enemy. Such hate has done all kinds of horrible things. Infants killed, people slaughtered with knifes, mutilated corpses, real butchery, mass unmarked graves, concentration camps in which people are forced to eat their own shit (literally).
This does not happen on the side of the attacker only. It happens on both sides ALWAYS. Defense ALWAYS turns into offense and hate.
When there was war here in Croatia. We were being attacked by Serbian forces. And of course the early post-war propaganda was that we were all heroes and they were all evil. Now 15 years later, all kinds of shit swimed to the surface and it turns out they were no worse than we were. Both of us were savages. Both with the illusion that we are on the "right" side.
You go on and on about some ideals, human nature etc etc.
Tell me one good reason to kill infants because they belong to one race. Is that really honorable?
p.s. don't try to pull something like: "that is a war crime etc." It is a part of every war, savegery. Germans, Americans, Vikings, Huns, Croatians, Serbs...they all do the same things in war, because they are animals. War crimes ARE a part of WAR
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Quote:
mntlfngrs said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: being anti war means sitting home watching TV.. being pro-war means running around in rage killing people..
which one of these two actions is the emotional one? I'll give you a clue, on the battlefield, the heart pumps faster, that's the emotional action.
and as for utopian view? Well if all those who protest thought human society is an utopia they would stay home and not protest. you are not making sense here. Anti-wark folks are the ones that complain a lot, which means their view of society is the complete oposite of utopia
understanding in war? Well sure, I understand war. A guy decides that Jews are lesser people, and kills millions of them. If I didn't understand him, I'd almost judge him...
the emotion comes in because they can't stomach it an get upset when confronted with it.
well, I'd rather get upset by war then feel a duty to kill my friends and brothers.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Quote:
mntlfngrs said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"
It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.
no, but intelligent people can take over and rule the stupid ones
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
mntlfngrs said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"
It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.
Well no one knows what there will always be. Maybe for war to wane we would have to see a lot more intelligence in humanity then we have today.
No I'm not expecting war to go away anytime soon. Really war is no longer my business. I really have little interest in trying to change my fellow man. I have interest in changing how I live my life amounst those who choose to see conflict as an important part of life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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nobody can change the world, all you can do is offer your hand to those around you. That little bit of love will make a little clean spot on the dirty window on humanity. It will not clean the window but it will make other see through window to the other side and maybe wish more of the window is clean
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Good Morning Old Wood Spector It's about 6am here. Most are still in bed and I am about to walk my dog in the hills.
You are right my friend. Love is the only answer to war.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
mntlfngrs said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"
It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.
no, but intelligent people can take over and rule the stupid ones
thant would be done via a war I guess.
-------------------- Be all and you'll be to end all
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Quote:
mntlfngrs said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
mntlfngrs said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
"there's really no reason for war among intelligent beings"
It isn't the intelligent ones you need to worry about. You don't have a Utopian view that the whole work can be full of nothing but intelligent educated people do you? there will always be fundamentalists.
no, but intelligent people can take over and rule the stupid ones
thant would be done via a war I guess.
no through education
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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