|
Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
#4649746 - 09/12/05 10:47 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers. Those who espouse love will come and go, but those who espouse hatred will remain faithful forever.
Upon what evidence do you base your assertions?
IMO Hatred = contraction/rejection of self and others, Love = expansion/acceptance of self and others.
Perhaps the sterotypical peace-and-love hippies of the 60's are not as evident as they were during the Vietnam War, but belief in Love and the creative forces of Life has not "died out." Far from it.
The will to power over others, as opposed to power for others, is not based upon expansion or "getting things done," but fear that you are not worthy of Love. Greed does not create a product, it merely perpetuates the illusion of lack and loneliness.
My subjective experience has taught me that a life of hatred creates only deadness, while a life of Love and Joy reveals the beauty and grace of being alive.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
|
That is a typical cause of brainwashing. Repeat very often, drill, emotion-enforcement, narrow view (exercise aiming, techniques), never change view to opposite side, propaganda for 'purpose' etc...
I think, that happens to every soldier worldwide. They are drilled to leave their conscience behind.
Still bad enough, after Nuremberg-Trials...
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
#4649754 - 09/12/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
looner2 said: Did you register anything in my post, whatsoever?
You want to label someone as having a personality disorder because they listened to violent music before going into BATTLE?
I was nice and actually gave you an explanation from a warfare perspective and also a social perspective.
Now i'll be honest...
You're an idiot.
ok, let's go step by step.
1.A sociopath is a person that can kill, steal etc. without showing any remorse and lacks the ability to feel empathy.
right?
right
2. that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts.
right?
right
3. by definition, soldiers that enjoy killing people and feel no remorse for doing it are sociopaths
Tell me where did my logic fail?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4649760 - 09/12/05 10:50 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: That is a typical cause of brainwashing. Repeat very often, drill, emotion-enforcement, narrow view (exercise aiming, techniques), never change view to opposite side, propaganda for 'purpose' etc...
I think, that happens to every soldier worldwide.
not really, sometimes volonteurs join in without any training and make bloodbaths with enjoyment
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
|
not really, sometimes volonteurs join in without any training and make bloodbaths with enjoyment Those are not the classical soldiers... Those are ill, yes with a stench of sociopatism.
|
MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,823
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 4 months, 19 days
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
#4649783 - 09/12/05 10:57 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4649792 - 09/12/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: not really, sometimes volonteurs join in without any training and make bloodbaths with enjoyment Those are not the classical soldiers... Those are ill, yes with a stench of sociopatism.
but such dumd-down training in the end causes lack of sensitivity, so in a way is artificially induced sociopathy
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
#4649808 - 09/12/05 11:03 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MJF said: I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?
which reminds me, my country is full of ex-soldiers with PTSS, doing suicides by hanging themselfs on national flags and stuff like that.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
|
|
Well it's rather easy.
In WW2 and the wars before, only 2% of soldiers shot to kill. Of the 2% who shot to kill there were 1% who were not hindered by remorse but felt they should do it ("war heroes") and 1% who were not hindered by remorse but derived satisfaction from bloodshed (sociopaths)
The 98% of "normals" all without exception came down with psychiatric syndromes after they spent more than 4 months at the frontline.
Nowadays soldiers are trained to kill on reflex and their targets are more realistic. Now 90+%, given the circumstances, will shoot to kill. But other than the sociopaths and the "war heroes" everybody else gets fucked in the head psychologically. The military knows they are driving their men beyond their psychological capacity but the training is such that most will crumble *after* they pulled the trigger.
If you saw the movie Schindler's List (you should): camp commander Goetz is a classic sociopath. It's not depicted but the guy who kicks the stool from under him when he's in the noose would likely be one too.
There's no reason to get emotional about sociopaths If they play by our rules they can stay and play the society game, but if they start playing by their own rules they should be brought to a place where they can play among themselves, with no sheep around to distract the wolves from ripping eachothers throats out.
Sociopaths are a fact of life. 1/25 people is one. 3/100 have aquired sociopathic traits and 1/100 is a natural born killer. It's a personality disorder, but one strongly associated with violent crime. 1/25 is a sociopath but 1/2 of convicted violent offenders and 4/5 copkillers are sociopaths. That's a very clear message. Sociopathy is a tragedy, but with a strong tendency to force a tragedy upon the people around them.
There are wolves among the herd.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
|
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
looner2 said: Did you register anything in my post, whatsoever?
You want to label someone as having a personality disorder because they listened to violent music before going into BATTLE?
I was nice and actually gave you an explanation from a warfare perspective and also a social perspective.
Now i'll be honest...
You're an idiot.
ok, let's go step by step.
1.A sociopath is a person that can kill, steal etc. without showing any remorse and lacks the ability to feel empathy.
right?
right
2. that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts.
right?
right
3. by definition, soldiers that enjoy killing people and feel no remorse for doing it are sociopaths
Tell me where did my logic fail?
The definition I have for a sociopath doesn't concern violence... it is merely a anti-social personality disorder.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
#4649983 - 09/12/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MJF said: I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?
Disgusting post. As long as your not the one doing the killing, then it is easy to degrade those that MUST do it, right?
An over-used quote has relevance once again.
"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-George Orwell
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Asante]
#4650028 - 09/12/05 11:58 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: In WW2 and the wars before, only 2% of soldiers shot to kill. Of the 2% who shot to kill there were 1% who were not hindered by remorse but felt they should do it ("war heroes") and 1% who were not hindered by remorse but derived satisfaction from bloodshed (sociopaths)
The 98% of "normals" all without exception came down with psychiatric syndromes after they spent more than 4 months at the frontline.
Just which orifice did you pull these figures out of? It is pure speculation to assign any credibility to these figures as 1) Surveys were not done in all wars and it is doubtful that there is even enough information to make a blanket statement about all soldiers in all armies in WWII. 2) Any surveys that MIGHT have been done are suspect as to the statistical sampling methods. 3) Diagnoses of psychiatric syndromes would require ACTUAL DIAGNOSES, not specious statements.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Asante]
#4650034 - 09/12/05 11:58 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I believe WW2 was upwards of around 15%. It increased in the korean war and reached near 90% in vietnam.
I doubt the validity of this study to a considerable degree. Although i'm sure relevant in many cases. Battles up until the modern firearm required close-combat killing that was impossible to avoid. The close aspect of someone wanting to kill you might trigger a response that is not seen in far away gun battles.
The battles of WW1 and WW2 soldiers had firing lanes which to scatter fire across an open field, which took away the personal aiming and shooting an individual. I don't know how this kind of fighting could even begin to be calculated in that study.
I don't buy the whole sociopath/killing thing that is fed us from psychologists. 1/100 people are natural born killers? What like the MOVIE!!??
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
#4650099 - 09/12/05 12:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
MJF said: I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?
Disgusting post. As long as your not the one doing the killing, then it is easy to degrade those that MUST do it, right?
An over-used quote has relevance once again.
"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-George Orwell
Again, I'm sure there is nobody covering Gomp's ass when he sleeps at night, nor is there anybody there that MUST kill.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
#4650115 - 09/12/05 12:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
looner2 said: I believe WW2 was upwards of around 15%. It increased in the korean war and reached near 90% in vietnam.
I doubt the validity of this study to a considerable degree. Although i'm sure relevant in many cases. Battles up until the modern firearm required close-combat killing that was impossible to avoid. The close aspect of someone wanting to kill you might trigger a response that is not seen in far away gun battles.
The battles of WW1 and WW2 soldiers had firing lanes which to scatter fire across an open field, which took away the personal aiming and shooting an individual. I don't know how this kind of fighting could even begin to be calculated in that study.
I don't buy the whole sociopath/killing thing that is fed us from psychologists. 1/100 people are natural born killers? What like the MOVIE!!??
So name-calling is crap? A man that drives a bus is called a bus driver, a man that feels pleasure from killing humans is called a sociopath.
But since you don't like names, I guess when you come into a store you refuse to say: "I want a bubble gum", you say "I want that sticky chewy thingy"
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
|
I looked up the definition of sociopath and it says nothing about killing, maybe my definition is wrong.
Just because a soldier listens to violent music before war does not mean he enjoys killing. If he enjoys combat that does not mean he enjoys killing. When killing is necessary it doesn't matter what is going on in the brain of the individual. What he must do to perform the act is for him and him alone to comprehend. I tried to explain this above... but it doesn't surprise me one bit that you didn't understand.
It is his duty to kill, so spare him the psychobabble and demeaning attitude towards his profession.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
#4650229 - 09/12/05 12:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
looner2 said: I looked up the definition of sociopath and it says nothing about killing, maybe my definition is wrong.
Just because a soldier listens to violent music before war does not mean he enjoys killing. If he enjoys combat that does not mean he enjoys killing. When killing is necessary it doesn't matter what is going on in the brain of the individual. What he must do to perform the act is for him and him alone to comprehend. I tried to explain this above... but it doesn't surprise me one bit that you didn't understand.
It is his duty to kill, so spare him the psychobabble and demeaning attitude towards his profession.
Sociopathy involves more than killing, but it's not the act of killing, it's the attitude towards the act that defines sociopathy. You seem to look at sociopathy as some kind of a body illnes, something that shows by rised temperature or something. Sociopathy is a certain way of behaviour, It's not malfunction of the brain, or chemical imbalance or whatever, you can call it illness or duty, but it is certain kind of thinking and behaviour that has a name. It's called antisocial because it is directed against other members of the society.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (09/12/05 12:44 PM)
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
|
1) Sociopaths are not killers in the vast majority of cases, they are simply people with further their own needs without remorse. Many business executives could be sociopaths, along with many criminals, but there are so many of them in modern society trying to label them all as "killers" really takes the definition out of it.
2) Seeing as many soldiers come out with psychological issues if they were at the front line and killing people, we can easily see these people aren't sociopaths. Most soldiers join because they want to serve their country and protect the population, not because they want to go out killing people.
I like violent music also, and if I ever went out to war you can be sure I'd be listening to some black metal beforehand, but just because someone wants an adrenaline rush before they have to engage the enemy it doesn't mean they're a sociopath. A sociopath is an entire mindset disorder that defines the person's life, not a response to a highly stressful war-time situation.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
#4650279 - 09/12/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Listening to Al Franken or Micheal Moore makes me want to kill somebody.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
#4650290 - 09/12/05 01:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ravus said: 1) Sociopaths are not killers in the vast majority of cases, they are simply people with further their own needs without remorse. Many business executives could be sociopaths, along with many criminals, but there are so many of them in modern society trying to label them all as "killers" really takes the definition out of it.
2) Seeing as many soldiers come out with psychological issues if they were at the front line and killing people, we can easily see these people aren't sociopaths. Most soldiers join because they want to serve their country and protect the population, not because they want to go out killing people.
I like violent music also, and if I ever went out to war you can be sure I'd be listening to some black metal beforehand, but just because someone wants an adrenaline rush before they have to engage the enemy it doesn't mean they're a sociopath. A sociopath is an entire mindset disorder that defines the person's life, not a response to a highly stressful war-time situation.
they listen to the music during the combat for entertainment, not before. They have loudspeakers attached to their transporter, and play it, they allso have a headset in the helmets and the CD music is aired from the transporter
Many do get disorders after te war, but some don't, those who don't and who remember the slaughter of civilians with joy, I consider them sociopaths.
And my point is not to define sociopaths as killers, but killers as sociopaths. There is a difference. Many sociopaths do not kill, but again many who do kill are sociopaths.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
|