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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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sociopaths in war
    #4647905 - 09/11/05 10:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've been watching farenheit 11/9 today, and looking at all this crap humans do to themselfs, but It all felt natural becuase that is how humans are, more or less, but then I saw that soldier that explained what kind of music they are listening to. Something like "burn motherfucker". He acted like when a child plays a violent game.
What kind of a human can kill civilians with pleasure, watch people cry while looking for parts of their loved ones, and sing "burn motherfucker" and enjoy the whole process?

I mean politicians and generals are one form of human corruption, but this? What the fuck is that? That guy is not doing it out of frustration, or hatefull upbringing, it's all a game of shooting to him, and he is absolutley not at all sensitive to human pain.
Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineGomp
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4647928 - 09/11/05 10:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Did he volunteer?

...


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4647932 - 09/11/05 10:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
I've been watching farenheit 11/9 today, and looking at all this crap humans do to themselfs, but It all felt natural becuase that is how humans are, more or less, but then I saw that soldier that explained what kind of music they are listening to. Something like "burn motherfucker". He acted like when a child plays a violent game.
What kind of a human can kill civilians with pleasure, watch people cry while looking for parts of their loved ones, and sing "burn motherfucker" and enjoy the whole process?

I mean politicians and generals are one form of human corruption, but this? What the fuck is that? That guy is not doing it out of frustration, or hatefull upbringing, it's all a game of shooting to him, and he is absolutley not at all sensitive to human pain.
Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?




11/9? You crazy Europeans and your backward ways of doing everything. Europe completely takes out the double message from the terrorists, of 9/11 for attacking the US and calling 911 for help. Or at least I suspect that was their message, otherwise it's quite a coincidence.

Humans are animals; it's mostly those who are brought up in secluded, comfy, teddy bear-filled environments who will say, "Oh no! Hatred!" while eating their hamburger. But that cow probably screamed as it died, just like a human would. We are all animals, killing, slaughtering, dominating each other on a meaningless, blood-soaked stage. Not all of us can sit on the shore and watch onwards, criticizing the attackers for following the universal nature of life.

But war is fueled by hatred, and the soldiers get their inspiration from hatred. Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers. Those who espouse love will come and go, but those who espouse hatred will remain faithful forever. :syringe:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4648003 - 09/11/05 11:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Icelander]
    #4648115 - 09/11/05 11:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hatred: Helping build stronger communities


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4648161 - 09/12/05 12:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ravus likes the dark side. He doesn't see a balance. Love and hate both are powerful. If love did not exist to nuture the young we would never have those lovely haters that Ravus admires so much.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Icelander]
    #4648170 - 09/12/05 12:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I can not think of anything productive that hatred has produced. Hatred doesn't build skyscrapers or discover medicines. It only causes more suffering.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4648198 - 09/12/05 12:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not everything needs to be productive in the sense you are speaking of. Maybe learning takes place because of the effects of hatred. Everything has a place in this Universeal experience or it would not be here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4648219 - 09/12/05 12:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I guess Croatians are far superior to Americans as long as you ignore the ethnic cleansing you people enjoy. I used to be a soldier. What the fuck do you expect people whos only means of survival is violence to listen to...the goddamn soundtrack to The Sound of fucking Music. I have noticed that you tend to focus on humanity's flaws only where it concerns Americans. Why don't you look at your own history which is full of racial hatred and genocide. Try to improve on your own country, instead of criticising a social group alien to you. Here is a tidbit from www.onwar.com :
"Unlike the brief fighting in Slovenia, the other breakaway republic, the clashes between federal troops and republic defense forces in Croatia erupted into full-scale war. Federal ships off the coast fired on targets in Croatia, while Croatian forces blockaded federal barracks, cutting off utilities and food; besieged soldiers then shelled nearby civilian areas."
Here is a Croatian soldier standing over the body of a civilian he murdered.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Icelander]
    #4648240 - 09/12/05 12:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Love only exists today to help build tomorrow's soldiers. We need loving mothers to feed their sons, so their sons can go conquer the world. We need loving husbands and wives to reproduce and create a stable environment, so that their children can help the will to power of a nation, community and individual.

There is no duality, just necessity. Love and hate are not opposites, but rather part of the same goal: expansion and domination.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4648253 - 09/12/05 12:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

have noticed that you tend to focus on humanity's flaws only where it concerns Americans.




I haven't noticed this. Old usually is focused on humanity at large.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4649318 - 09/12/05 09:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
I've been watching farenheit 11/9 today, and looking at all this crap humans do to themselfs, but It all felt natural becuase that is how humans are, more or less, but then I saw that soldier that explained what kind of music they are listening to. Something like "burn motherfucker". He acted like when a child plays a violent game.
What kind of a human can kill civilians with pleasure, watch people cry while looking for parts of their loved ones, and sing "burn motherfucker" and enjoy the whole process?

I mean politicians and generals are one form of human corruption, but this? What the fuck is that? That guy is not doing it out of frustration, or hatefull upbringing, it's all a game of shooting to him, and he is absolutley not at all sensitive to human pain.
Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?




11/9? You crazy Europeans and your backward ways of doing everything. Europe completely takes out the double message from the terrorists, of 9/11 for attacking the US and calling 911 for help. Or at least I suspect that was their message, otherwise it's quite a coincidence.

Humans are animals; it's mostly those who are brought up in secluded, comfy, teddy bear-filled environments who will say, "Oh no! Hatred!" while eating their hamburger. But that cow probably screamed as it died, just like a human would. We are all animals, killing, slaughtering, dominating each other on a meaningless, blood-soaked stage. Not all of us can sit on the shore and watch onwards, criticizing the attackers for following the universal nature of life.

But war is fueled by hatred, and the soldiers get their inspiration from hatred. Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers. Those who espouse love will come and go, but those who espouse hatred will remain faithful forever. :syringe:




:lol: boy you must be having fun in the morning


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4649323 - 09/12/05 09:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I guess Croatians are far superior to Americans as long as you ignore the ethnic cleansing you people enjoy. I used to be a soldier. What the fuck do you expect people whos only means of survival is violence to listen to...the goddamn soundtrack to The Sound of fucking Music. I have noticed that you tend to focus on humanity's flaws only where it concerns Americans. Why don't you look at your own history which is full of racial hatred and genocide. Try to improve on your own country, instead of criticising a social group alien to you. Here is a tidbit from www.onwar.com :
"Unlike the brief fighting in Slovenia, the other breakaway republic, the clashes between federal troops and republic defense forces in Croatia erupted into full-scale war. Federal ships off the coast fired on targets in Croatia, while Croatian forces blockaded federal barracks, cutting off utilities and food; besieged soldiers then shelled nearby civilian areas."
Here is a Croatian soldier standing over the body of a civilian he murdered.





why are you being so nationalist? I wasn't talking about nations here, but people in general


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649356 - 09/12/05 10:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's a very good question.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Icelander]
    #4649357 - 09/12/05 10:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That picture he posted there, in fact adds to my point


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4649478 - 09/12/05 11:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers.




Hatred is nothing but a catalyst that can bring expansion and these other ideas you speak of. It isn't the action, its simply the thought process that brought forth the action. Glorifying such an aspect of self in such a manner belies the fact that the same actions and states that result from hatred can result from any other catalyst or thought process. Hatred might bring a man to devote himself to destroying others, but so might the desire for money.

I can't possibly see how focusing on destructive energy and implied seperation and suffering acts in any beneficial manner in the interests of oneself or the environment which sustains and is continously responsible for the self. Influencing one's environment in manners that will come back to haunt oneself, as in acting extremely short-sightedly, isn't beneficial for one's survival. Stabbing some guy in the back so that you can steal his wallet and eat for another day isn't going to ensure your survival tomorrow when some family member of his hunts you down. Creating a world of war simply increases the threats to the survival of one's own child.

Hurl a grenade in that direction over there and the far reaching consequences of your action ensure that one will be hurled back, in some shape or form. Its hard to bring power into one's will when there is nothing to enslave. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4649584 - 09/12/05 11:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers.




Hatred is nothing but a catalyst that can bring expansion and these other ideas you speak of. It isn't the action, its simply the thought process that brought forth the action. Glorifying such an aspect of self in such a manner belies the fact that the same actions and states that result from hatred can result from any other catalyst or thought process. Hatred might bring a man to devote himself to destroying others, but so might the desire for money.

I can't possibly see how focusing on destructive energy and implied seperation and suffering acts in any beneficial manner in the interests of oneself or the environment which sustains and is continously responsible for the self. Influencing one's environment in manners that will come back to haunt oneself, as in acting extremely short-sightedly, isn't beneficial for one's survival. Stabbing some guy in the back so that you can steal his wallet and eat for another day isn't going to ensure your survival tomorrow when some family member of his hunts you down. Creating a world of war simply increases the threats to the survival of one's own child.

Hurl a grenade in that direction over there and the far reaching consequences of your action ensure that one will be hurled back, in some shape or form. Its hard to bring power into one's will when there is nothing to enslave. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




hey it makes sense when you wake up pissed off  :smirk:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649640 - 09/12/05 12:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is an ignorant post. Instead of asking why soldiers show unbridled aggression before battle you instead labeled them as a sociopath right off the bat.

If you do not understand something, don't throw labels into the mix. We get it, you don't like war. You don't understand war, and you don't understand those who participate in war. So why jump to a conclusion?

I've never been in war, but the aspect of fighting surely drives primal instincts to the surface and these instincts may very well ensure survival of oneself and the defeat of the enemy. I've read that is best for a soldier to embrace the rush of emotion in war as a means of ensuring courage and bravery, but it is best for the commander to let his emotion slowly build as to use reason and emotion together as a force of decision-making.

Those that choose war are a breed seperate from the rest of the population. Not better or worse, but different and necessary. Just as the touch of a nurse is left to the caring of the wounded, so is the bloodlust best left to those on the battlefield.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4649709 - 09/12/05 12:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
This is an ignorant post. Instead of asking why soldiers show unbridled aggression before battle you instead labeled them as a sociopath right off the bat.

If you do not understand something, don't throw labels into the mix. We get it, you don't like war. You don't understand war, and you don't understand those who participate in war. So why jump to a conclusion?

I've never been in war, but the aspect of fighting surely drives primal instincts to the surface and these instincts may very well ensure survival of oneself and the defeat of the enemy. I've read that is best for a soldier to embrace the rush of emotion in war as a means of ensuring courage and bravery, but it is best for the commander to let his emotion slowly build as to use reason and emotion together as a force of decision-making.

Those that choose war are a breed seperate from the rest of the population. Not better or worse, but different and necessary. Just as the touch of a nurse is left to the caring of the wounded, so is the bloodlust best left to those on the battlefield.




There is a name for everything in human language, and things get named and defined, so why don't you alow classification of behaviour?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649725 - 09/12/05 12:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Did you register anything in my post, whatsoever?

You want to label someone as having a personality disorder because they listened to violent music before going into BATTLE?

I was nice and actually gave you an explanation from a warfare perspective and also a social perspective.

Now i'll be honest...

You're an idiot.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4649746 - 09/12/05 12:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers. Those who espouse love will come and go, but those who espouse hatred will remain faithful forever.




Upon what evidence do you base your assertions?

IMO Hatred = contraction/rejection of self and others,
Love = expansion/acceptance of self and others.

Perhaps the sterotypical peace-and-love hippies of the 60's are not as evident as they were during the Vietnam War, but belief in Love and the creative forces of Life has not "died out." Far from it.

The will to power over others, as opposed to power for others, is not based upon expansion or "getting things done," but fear that you are not worthy of Love. Greed does not create a product, it merely perpetuates the illusion of lack and loneliness.

My subjective experience has taught me that a life of hatred creates only deadness, while a life of Love and Joy reveals the beauty and grace of being alive.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649752 - 09/12/05 12:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That is a typical cause of brainwashing.
Repeat very often, drill, emotion-enforcement, narrow view (exercise aiming, techniques), never change view to opposite side, propaganda for 'purpose' etc...

I think, that happens to every soldier worldwide. They are drilled to leave their conscience behind.

Still bad enough, after Nuremberg-Trials...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4649754 - 09/12/05 12:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Did you register anything in my post, whatsoever?

You want to label someone as having a personality disorder because they listened to violent music before going into BATTLE?

I was nice and actually gave you an explanation from a warfare perspective and also a social perspective.

Now i'll be honest...

You're an idiot.





ok, let's go step by step.

1.A sociopath is a person that can kill, steal etc. without showing any remorse and lacks the ability to feel empathy.

right?

right

2. that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts.

right?

right

3. by definition, soldiers that enjoy killing people and feel no remorse for doing it are sociopaths

Tell me where did my logic fail?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4649760 - 09/12/05 12:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
That is a typical cause of brainwashing.
Repeat very often, drill, emotion-enforcement, narrow view (exercise aiming, techniques), never change view to opposite side, propaganda for 'purpose' etc...

I think, that happens to every soldier worldwide.




not really, sometimes volonteurs join in without any training and make bloodbaths with enjoyment


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649772 - 09/12/05 12:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

not really, sometimes volonteurs join in without any training and make bloodbaths with enjoyment
Those are not the classical soldiers...
Those are ill, yes with a stench of sociopatism.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMJF
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4649783 - 09/12/05 12:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4649792 - 09/12/05 12:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
not really, sometimes volonteurs join in without any training and make bloodbaths with enjoyment
Those are not the classical soldiers...
Those are ill, yes with a stench of sociopatism.




but such dumd-down training in the end causes lack of sensitivity, so in a way is artificially induced sociopathy


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4649808 - 09/12/05 01:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?




which reminds me, my country is full of ex-soldiers with PTSS, doing suicides by hanging themselfs on national flags and stuff like that.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649919 - 09/12/05 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well it's rather easy.

In WW2 and the wars before, only 2% of soldiers shot to kill. Of the 2% who shot to kill there were 1% who were not hindered by remorse but felt they should do it ("war heroes") and 1% who were not hindered by remorse but derived satisfaction from bloodshed (sociopaths)

The 98% of "normals" all without exception came down with psychiatric syndromes after they spent more than 4 months at the frontline.

Nowadays soldiers are trained to kill on reflex and their targets are more realistic. Now 90+%, given the circumstances, will shoot to kill. But other than the sociopaths and the "war heroes" everybody else gets fucked in the head psychologically. The military knows they are driving their men beyond their psychological capacity but the training is such that most will crumble *after* they pulled the trigger.

If you saw the movie Schindler's List (you should): camp commander Goetz is a classic sociopath. It's not depicted but the guy who kicks the stool from under him when he's in the noose would likely be one too.

There's no reason to get emotional about sociopaths :wink:
If they play by our rules they can stay and play the society game, but if they start playing by their own rules they should be brought to a place where they can play among themselves, with no sheep around to distract the wolves from ripping eachothers throats out.

Sociopaths are a fact of life. 1/25 people is one. 3/100 have aquired sociopathic traits and 1/100 is a natural born killer. It's a personality disorder, but one strongly associated with violent crime.
1/25 is a sociopath but 1/2 of convicted violent offenders and 4/5 copkillers are sociopaths. That's a very clear message.
Sociopathy is a tragedy, but with a strong tendency to force a tragedy upon the people around them.

There are wolves among the herd.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649970 - 09/12/05 01:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Did you register anything in my post, whatsoever?

You want to label someone as having a personality disorder because they listened to violent music before going into BATTLE?

I was nice and actually gave you an explanation from a warfare perspective and also a social perspective.

Now i'll be honest...

You're an idiot.





ok, let's go step by step.

1.A sociopath is a person that can kill, steal etc. without showing any remorse and lacks the ability to feel empathy.

right?

right

2. that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts.

right?

right

3. by definition, soldiers that enjoy killing people and feel no remorse for doing it are sociopaths

Tell me where did my logic fail?




The definition I have for a sociopath doesn't concern violence... it is merely a anti-social personality disorder.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4649983 - 09/12/05 01:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?




Disgusting post. As long as your not the one doing the killing, then it is easy to degrade those that MUST do it, right?

An over-used quote has relevance once again.

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Asante]
    #4650028 - 09/12/05 01:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
In WW2 and the wars before, only 2% of soldiers shot to kill. Of the 2% who shot to kill there were 1% who were not hindered by remorse but felt they should do it ("war heroes") and 1% who were not hindered by remorse but derived satisfaction from bloodshed (sociopaths)

The 98% of "normals" all without exception came down with psychiatric syndromes after they spent more than 4 months at the frontline.




Just which orifice did you pull these figures out of? It is pure speculation to assign any credibility to these figures as
1) Surveys were not done in all wars and it is doubtful that there is even enough information to make a blanket statement about all soldiers in all armies in WWII.
2) Any surveys that MIGHT have been done are suspect as to the statistical sampling methods.
3) Diagnoses of psychiatric syndromes would require ACTUAL DIAGNOSES,
not specious statements.


--------------------
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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Asante]
    #4650034 - 09/12/05 01:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I believe WW2 was upwards of around 15%. It increased in the korean war and reached near 90% in vietnam.

I doubt the validity of this study to a considerable degree. Although i'm sure relevant in many cases. Battles up until the modern firearm required close-combat killing that was impossible to avoid. The close aspect of someone wanting to kill you might trigger a response that is not seen in far away gun battles.

The battles of WW1 and WW2 soldiers had firing lanes which to scatter fire across an open field, which took away the personal aiming and shooting an individual. I don't know how this kind of fighting could even begin to be calculated in that study.

I don't buy the whole sociopath/killing thing that is fed us from psychologists. 1/100 people are natural born killers? What like the MOVIE!!??  :cool:


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650099 - 09/12/05 02:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?




Disgusting post. As long as your not the one doing the killing, then it is easy to degrade those that MUST do it, right?

An over-used quote has relevance once again.

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell





Again, I'm sure there is nobody covering Gomp's ass when he sleeps at night, nor is there anybody there that MUST kill.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650115 - 09/12/05 02:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
I believe WW2 was upwards of around 15%. It increased in the korean war and reached near 90% in vietnam.

I doubt the validity of this study to a considerable degree. Although i'm sure relevant in many cases. Battles up until the modern firearm required close-combat killing that was impossible to avoid. The close aspect of someone wanting to kill you might trigger a response that is not seen in far away gun battles.

The battles of WW1 and WW2 soldiers had firing lanes which to scatter fire across an open field, which took away the personal aiming and shooting an individual. I don't know how this kind of fighting could even begin to be calculated in that study.

I don't buy the whole sociopath/killing thing that is fed us from psychologists. 1/100 people are natural born killers? What like the MOVIE!!??  :cool:




So name-calling is crap? A man that drives a bus is called a bus driver, a man that feels pleasure from killing humans is called a sociopath.

But since you don't like names, I guess when you come into a store you refuse to say: "I want a bubble gum", you say "I want that sticky chewy thingy"


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650193 - 09/12/05 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I looked up the definition of sociopath and it says nothing about killing, maybe my definition is wrong.

Just because a soldier listens to violent music before war does not mean he enjoys killing. If he enjoys combat that does not mean he enjoys killing. When killing is necessary it doesn't matter what is going on in the brain of the individual. What he must do to perform the act is for him and him alone to comprehend. I tried to explain this above... but it doesn't surprise me one bit that you didn't understand.

It is his duty to kill, so spare him the psychobabble and demeaning attitude towards his profession.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650229 - 09/12/05 02:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
I looked up the definition of sociopath and it says nothing about killing, maybe my definition is wrong.

Just because a soldier listens to violent music before war does not mean he enjoys killing. If he enjoys combat that does not mean he enjoys killing. When killing is necessary it doesn't matter what is going on in the brain of the individual. What he must do to perform the act is for him and him alone to comprehend. I tried to explain this above... but it doesn't surprise me one bit that you didn't understand.

It is his duty to kill, so spare him the psychobabble and demeaning attitude towards his profession.




Sociopathy involves more than killing, but it's not the act of killing, it's the attitude towards the act that defines sociopathy.
You seem to look at sociopathy as some kind of a body illnes, something that shows by rised temperature or something. Sociopathy is a certain way of behaviour, It's not malfunction of the brain, or chemical imbalance or whatever, you can call it illness or duty, but it is certain kind of thinking and behaviour that has a name.
It's called antisocial because it is directed against other members of the society.


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Edited by OldWoodSpecter (09/12/05 02:44 PM)


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650266 - 09/12/05 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1) Sociopaths are not killers in the vast majority of cases, they are simply people with further their own needs without remorse. Many business executives could be sociopaths, along with many criminals, but there are so many of them in modern society trying to label them all as "killers" really takes the definition out of it.

2) Seeing as many soldiers come out with psychological issues if they were at the front line and killing people, we can easily see these people aren't sociopaths. Most soldiers join because they want to serve their country and protect the population, not because they want to go out killing people.

I like violent music also, and if I ever went out to war you can be sure I'd be listening to some black metal beforehand, but just because someone wants an adrenaline rush before they have to engage the enemy it doesn't mean they're a sociopath. A sociopath is an entire mindset disorder that defines the person's life, not a response to a highly stressful war-time situation.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4650279 - 09/12/05 02:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Listening to Al Franken or Micheal Moore makes me want to kill somebody.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4650290 - 09/12/05 03:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
1) Sociopaths are not killers in the vast majority of cases, they are simply people with further their own needs without remorse. Many business executives could be sociopaths, along with many criminals, but there are so many of them in modern society trying to label them all as "killers" really takes the definition out of it.

2) Seeing as many soldiers come out with psychological issues if they were at the front line and killing people, we can easily see these people aren't sociopaths. Most soldiers join because they want to serve their country and protect the population, not because they want to go out killing people.

I like violent music also, and if I ever went out to war you can be sure I'd be listening to some black metal beforehand, but just because someone wants an adrenaline rush before they have to engage the enemy it doesn't mean they're a sociopath. A sociopath is an entire mindset disorder that defines the person's life, not a response to a highly stressful war-time situation.




they listen to the music during the combat for entertainment, not before. They have loudspeakers attached to their transporter, and play it, they allso have a headset in the helmets and the CD music is aired from the transporter

Many do get disorders after te war, but some don't, those who don't and who remember the slaughter of civilians with joy, I consider them sociopaths.

And my point is not to define sociopaths as killers, but killers as sociopaths. There is a difference.
Many sociopaths do not kill, but again many who do kill are sociopaths.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650298 - 09/12/05 03:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Listening to Al Franken or Micheal Moore makes me want to kill somebody.




for the sake of your neighbours perhapse you should not listen to them


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650300 - 09/12/05 03:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Neither Al Franken nor Michael Moore is a neighbor.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650305 - 09/12/05 03:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Neither Al Franken nor Michael Moore is a neighbor.




no, for the sake of YOUR neighbors


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650312 - 09/12/05 03:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hmmmm...now I will flip over to the other side of the coin....

Let's say, someone killed your beloved one(s) (family, lover,...).
One day, you will find him, and as occasion will play, you only have the possibilities to shoot him, let him kill you, or let him run (with the dangers, that you won't see him again, or he will return, killing you).
So then if, possibilities are big, you shoot him and he dies, what would you feel ?

I will try to ask this question a little bit different:
Are there reasonable situations, you could imagine to feel happy to kill someone ?


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650339 - 09/12/05 03:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
no, for the sake of YOUR neighbors



No, you don't get it. Al Franken and Micheal Moore don't make me want to kill my neighbors. Now, take your time and keep in mind that I wasn't serious, fill in the blanks and then tell me what I was alluding to.


--------------------
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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4650355 - 09/12/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Hmmmm...now I will flip over to the other side of the coin....

Let's say, someone killed your beloved one(s) (family, lover,...).
One day, you will find him, and as occasion will play, you only have the possibilities to shoot him, let him kill you, or let him run (with the dangers, that you won't see him again, or he will return, killing you).
So then if, possibilities are big, you shoot him and he dies, what would you feel ?

I will try to ask this question a little bit different:
Are there reasonable situations, you could imagine to feel happy to kill someone ?




first of all, you are askin ME this, not the guy that got his loved one killed. In a highly emotional state my decision could be affected by emotions.

But my rational none-emotional part, the guy you are speaking to now, would definitivley let him run in hopes I never see him again.
If he pointed a gun at me trying to kill me, I would sacrifise myself and kill him or at least disable him.

If I decided to kill him in an emotional moment, I would feel satisfaction at the moment but it would pass in a couple of seconds, being replaced with sorrow and pain.

I can not kill someone I care for and not be punished by my own self.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650357 - 09/12/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

There is no duality




Left, right
up, down
life, death
good, evil
male, female
day, night
wrong, right
happy, sad

and yes of course

love, hate

Just because you choose to pick one emotion and hold it high doesn't change the duality that it fits into. Hate is one end of the spectrem and love is the other. There is duality in every form of life that is known to exist. It's all around you, just open your mind and take it all in.

Yes humans will dominate each other, it does seem to be in our instincts. But that by no means is our sole purpose for being on earth. Only some people choose that as their sole purpose. We can choose the path we walk and weather that is helping people or hurting them, it boils down to a choice. What do you choose your sole purpose in life to be? Mine sure isn't domination, I have no need to enforce my will on others. There are other ways of getting things down without enforcing your will, just a matter of what way you choose to go about doing it.

When you choose massive organized acts of violence to enforce your will you can ensure more acts to be wrought against you. Thus the only thing accomplished by war is more wars. And you can count on some very happy military contractors.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650366 - 09/12/05 03:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
no, for the sake of YOUR neighbors



No, you don't get it. Al Franken and Micheal Moore don't make me want to kill my neighbors. Now, take your time and keep in mind that I wasn't serious, fill in the blanks and then tell me what I was alluding to.




In threads like this, humour about such things is often not detectable. How do I know you really don't have an urge to kill someone? It is a pretty common feeling these days


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Sycronica]
    #4650383 - 09/12/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Quote:

There is no duality




Left, right
up, down
life, death
good, evil
male, female
day, night
wrong, right
happy, sad

and yes of course

love, hate

Just because you choose to pick one emotion and hold it high doesn't change the duality that it fits into. Hate is one end of the spectrem and love is the other. There is duality in every form of life that is known to exist. It's all around you, just open your mind and take it all in.

Yes humans will dominate each other, it does seem to be in our instincts. But that by no means is our sole purpose for being on earth. Only some people choose that as their sole purpose. We can choose the path we walk and weather that is helping people or hurting them, it boils down to a choice. What do you choose your sole purpose in life to be? Mine sure isn't domination, I have no need to enforce my will on others. There are other ways of getting things down without enforcing your will, just a matter of what way you choose to go about doing it.

When you choose massive organized acts of violence to enforce your will you can ensure more acts to be wrought against you. Thus the only thing accomplished by war is more wars. And you can count on some very happy military contractors.




the everlasting human fetish to classify, stick numbers,and find oposites.

love is love, hate is hate, it is people who consider them to be oposite things. They are just emotions.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650441 - 09/12/05 03:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All our thoughts are just 1s and 0s anyhow...


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Sycronica]
    #4650448 - 09/12/05 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Our brains are not digital, they're analogue.


--------------------
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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650461 - 09/12/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?





Disgusting post. As long as your not the one doing the killing, then it is easy to degrade those that MUST do it, right?

An over-used quote has relevance once again.

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell





What disgusts you about it?
Why do you think the military recroutes the way that it does?
Yes it is easy to degrade people that are killing..and I think they should be degraded. Two of my best friends are in the military...and they know that I don't condone it. I think they are making more lives less safe than they are making lives safe.


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650465 - 09/12/05 03:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

the everlasting human fetish to classify, stick numbers,and find oposites.

love is love, hate is hate, it is people who consider them to be oposite things. They are just emotions.




You can kick the stray dog, or you can feed it. 2 possible reactions to a situation, each on the far ends of the spectrum. Therefore, opposite each other.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650469 - 09/12/05 03:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I'm guessing soldiers tend to lean more towards the retarded side than the sociopath side. Anyone who can follow blind orders to their death and kill others without question....tells me there is something wrong with them. And if they were fine before the war....why do they come out fucked up?





Disgusting post. As long as your not the one doing the killing, then it is easy to degrade those that MUST do it, right?

An over-used quote has relevance once again.

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell





What disgusts you about it?
Why do you think the military recroutes the way that it does?
Yes it is easy to degrade people that are killing..and I think they should be degraded. Two of my best friends are in the military...and they know that I don't condone it. I think they are making more lives less safe than they are making lives safe.




Are you a pacifist?


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650482 - 09/12/05 03:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Are you a pacifist?




Don't say yes, he will sick his bulldog on you!


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


Edited by Sycronica (09/12/05 03:53 PM)


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650483 - 09/12/05 03:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
It is his duty to kill, so spare him the psychobabble and demeaning
attitude towards his profession.




Spare him? Demean his profession!
Why do you want to take away his brain and his heart? Let him decide his own duty...not brainwash it into him.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650500 - 09/12/05 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
It is his duty to kill, so spare him the psychobabble and demeaning
attitude towards his profession.




Spare him? Demean his profession!
Why do you want to take away his brain and his heart? Let him decide his own duty...not brainwash it into him.




You are an American.

Psssssst. We have an all volunteer army.

Are you a pacifist?


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Sycronica]
    #4650504 - 09/12/05 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
When you choose massive organized acts of violence to enforce your will you can ensure more acts to be wrought against you. Thus the only thing accomplished by war is more wars. And you can count on some very happy military contractors.




:thumbup:


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Sycronica]
    #4650518 - 09/12/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Quote:

Are you a pacifist?




Don't say yes, he will sick his bulldog on you!




Not true at all, but I find very few true pacifists when the questioning begins. Most agree with having a military but then at the same time demonize those who do the duty.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650522 - 09/12/05 04:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I refuse to wage a war I have no business waging. I can fight if the occasion arises...it has to arise...I will not make it arise.

Why do you insist on not answering any of my questions? I answered your question.

As much as our army may seem completely volunteered...our soldiers are deceived by recruiters and in many cases they have been brought up to think they must join the military because "what else are they supposed to do?"


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650552 - 09/12/05 04:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What question are you asking?

No, I won't answer your rhetical questions.

So you are not a pacifist. Good, that is clear. One more question, do you believe in a standing military?


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650580 - 09/12/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Most agree with having a military but then at the same time demonize those who do the duty.



Following orders and acting in defense do not always result in the same actions. There is a difference between being a tool and being a cognizant actor. I will always criticize those who do not question their actions and merely do things because they are told.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650601 - 09/12/05 04:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650609 - 09/12/05 04:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said: I will always criticize those who do not question their actions and merely do things because they are told.




:thumbup: to you.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4650646 - 09/12/05 04:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Most agree with having a military but then at the same time demonize those who do the duty.



Following orders and acting in defense do not always result in the same actions. There is a difference between being a tool and being a cognizant actor. I will always criticize those who do not question their actions and merely do things because they are told.




I assume that most believe a standing army is necessary. As such, those who are part of the military must obey orders because it is how the hierarchy of power is ordered. Should we have every 19 year old kid decide foreign policy decisions? They join to serve their country and fight when their leaders decide, he worries about infantry tactics and becoming a good shot with his rifle.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650665 - 09/12/05 04:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?




I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting. But since you are an anarchists... whatever. Our realities are a world apart.

What tactics do they use?

Recruit fairly? I believe in free will, when someone turns 18 they decide to join the military on their own free will. That is all that needs to be said.


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Edited by looner2 (09/12/05 04:29 PM)


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650740 - 09/12/05 04:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting.




First of all...respect is earned not given.
Second...
who are they protecting? Who are they serving?
I respect my friends in the military as people...that doesn't mean I have to respect the job they signed up for.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: MJF]
    #4650750 - 09/12/05 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They are protecting their countrymen. They are serving their country.

What is the point though? You are an anarchist. Why talk about soldiers? You don't believe in the country they are serving.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650766 - 09/12/05 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?




I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting. But since you are an anarchists... whatever. Our realities are a world apart.

What tactics do they use?

Recruit fairly? I believe in free will, when someone turns 18 they decide to join the military on their own free will. That is all that needs to be said.




To give life can be a noble thing, but it can also be a foolish thing.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650783 - 09/12/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

MJF said:
I don't believe in any standing governments (therefor I don't like a standing military). I'm for lawlessness (against the law of man). Sort of antinomianism.

My questions were:
1)What was it about my post that you found disgusting?
2)Why do you think the military uses the tactics they do in recruiting soldiers? Or do you think they recruit fairly?




I find disrespecting soldiers who give their life to protect and serve their country disgusting. But since you are an anarchists... whatever. Our realities are a world apart.

What tactics do they use?

Recruit fairly? I believe in free will, when someone turns 18 they decide to join the military on their own free will. That is all that needs to be said.




Even if there is such a thing as free will, stupid people can be influenced to such degree that you might consider them automatic machines without free will, and I mean that literally.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650818 - 09/12/05 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You can consider that, but I won't and neither will any society or government that values freedom. Are you suggesting we take away stupid peoples right to make their own decision?


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650820 - 09/12/05 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"why are you being so nationalist?"

I am being "nationalist" because you are focusing on U.S. soldiers in Iraq as examples of all humanity. Why not discuss the Nazi war crimes, Russian atrocities in Afghanistan, Croatian genocide, or Iraqi genocide as well. What is going on in Iraq is the lesser crime by magnitudes, though I do not support my country's action there by any means. I was once a soldier and I sympathize with the people who are stuck with this terrible situation. I should also state that most of my friends were not bloodthirsty, and on the contrary were highly principled and disciplined men. I might remind you a recent post focused on how unfree America is. If you are discussing humanity focus on more than just America. It is a legitimate topic for debate, but not to be used as a gross generalization for all soldiers globally.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650838 - 09/12/05 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts."

On the contrary many of the soldiers I have known that saw action were so overwhelmed with the pain inflicted on civilians that they could hardly live with it. It must be said that enemy soldiers are NOT victims...they are trying to kill you.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650851 - 09/12/05 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"why are you being so nationalist?"

I am being "nationalist" because you are focusing on U.S. soldiers in Iraq as examples of all humanity. Why not discuss the Nazi war crimes, Russian atrocities in Afghanistan, Croatian genocide, or Iraqi genocide as well. What is going on in Iraq is the lesser crime by magnitudes, though I do not support my country's action there by any means. I was once a soldier and I sympathize with the people who are stuck with this terrible situation. I should also state that most of my friends were not bloodthirsty, and on the contrary were highly principled and disciplined men. I might remind you a recent post focused on how unfree America is. If you are discussing humanity focus on more than just America. It is a legitimate topic for debate, but not to be used as a gross generalization for all soldiers globally.




What difference does it make which one of these things I mention as an example? I saw the film last night on TV, so that is what inspired me to talk about it.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650860 - 09/12/05 05:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
I assume that most believe a standing army is necessary.



That may be a correct assumption, however the popularity of the notion is no determinant of whether or not it is the correct or best way to organize things. It is also irrelevant to whether or not people should be blind tools for those who give orders.

Quote:

... those who are part of the military must obey orders because it is how the hierarchy of power is ordered.



So, people should follow orders because the system says people should follow orders. Hmmm, very deep.

Quote:

Should we have every 19 year old kid decide foreign policy decisions?



Where do you get that? I am merely stating that all individuals should make conscious decisions, particularly when it comes to their reasons for depriving others of their lives or giving up their own life.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650866 - 09/12/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"that is what happens with some soldiers during war. They are absolutley insensitive to pain of their victims, and feel no remorse after the acts."

On the contrary many of the soldiers I have known that saw action were so overwhelmed with the pain inflicted on civilians that they could hardly live with it. It must be said that enemy soldiers are NOT victims...they are trying to kill you.




Many, but some do feel pleasure in taking lives of civilians.
And as for soldiers, the reason they are trying to kill you is because you are trying to kill them, it's a mirror reaction.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4650872 - 09/12/05 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
You can consider that, but I won't and neither will any society or government that values freedom. Are you suggesting we take away stupid peoples right to make their own decision?




they already don't have the right because they can't take advantage of that right. But I'm not saying we should control them, I'm saying one must be carefull around such people becuase he is the pupetmaster.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650903 - 09/12/05 05:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Many, but some do feel pleasure in taking lives of civilians."

In civilian life there are an abundance of those types. They are not unique to the military.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650921 - 09/12/05 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yea but in war they get a pat on the back and for it, not to mention get access to some really destructive machinery.
Sociopaths in time of peace lave less chance of doing damage because they don't have thir own rocket launcher.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650956 - 09/12/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In my time of service I knew many who served in Vietnam. They were emotionally scarred. I had a seargent who was a Congressional Medal of Honor winner who cried out in his sleep and freaked out while on particularly intense field exercises. He was honored above all others with his decoration yet he felt incompetant and empty. He was still in the Army because he felt he was too ruined to hold a civilian job. He was an honourable, though emotionally twisted individual. I knew others who had uncontrollable anger problems which left them unable to stay married or raise children. Most of the Vietnam veterans I knew felt themselves to be casualties of the war. I never heard anyone brag about bringing misery to others. If those sociopaths were so prevalent I think I would have known some.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650995 - 09/12/05 05:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say they prevail, I said they exist


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4651104 - 09/12/05 06:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"I didn't say they prevail, I said they exist"

Well...

"Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?"

You asked a question. I answered.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Sycronica]
    #4651182 - 09/12/05 06:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You can kick the stray dog, or you can feed it. 2 possible reactions to a situation, each on the far ends of the spectrum.




Or you could grab the dog, flip it over, shove your knee in its tummy, break it's front paws to its sides, grab its throat with one hand so he doesnt bark too hard, reach for your pocketknife with your free hand, slide it under hids fur and start scraping over its ribs and take a not too spectacular satisfaction in its writhing.

Then you are a sociopath.


This is what sociopaths do, and prefer to do to humans, in the true extreme of the spectrum: deriving a degree of satisfaction in committing breathtaking cruelties. Every neighborhood has a guy who poisons the doves and strangles the cats. If you're a pet lover you're aware of that. Whether it's a quick kick to break a paw or elasborate torture - it's these people we're talking about.

You've got acquired sociopathy (the 3/100) and born psychopathy (the 1/100) In both cases you've got a person that doesnt think like you or me. Lack of emotion, lack of empathy, strongly fixated on getting what they want and a general inclination to hate and cruelty.

The medical referencebooks are "politically correct". These people fill our jails and likely were an important part of why the justice/penal system was created.

Most of them can maintain a balanced state. Should something happen towards anarchy however (rise of the German Nazi Party, the New Orleans some lose balance and these are the ones sniping and committing atrocities. You can bet a very few people *went to New Orleans* after the hurricane for the purpose of fucking people up in the anarchy of a disaster area. You don't hear that on the news but if you thoroughly read up on psychopathy/sociopathy you'll discover the "real story" behind much violence reported in the news media etc.

The 15% of soldiers Looner mentioned were the ones that shot *in the direction* of the enemy. They didnt take an aimed shot every opportunity they got. And they got fucked up mentally just like the majority who didnt fire.

In vietnam there were 50.000 american bullets fired for every vietcong killed. In WW2 plane-to-plane dogfights less than 5% of pilots did more than 95% of the killing. Think about it!
This isnt a matter of competence, it's *ability to actually kill*.

I pulled those facts from the Nastional Geographic Channel documentary "The Truth About Killing" I saw some two weeks ago, and they quoted one of the most thorough investigations within the military which was the basis of modern "effective" combat training. It also mentioned the majority of soldiers crapped and pissed their pants when the bullets really were flying. Contrary to a sig I saw: "actual combat is not even close to XboX"

Yes if someone did bad things to your mom you would perhaps buy a gun and blow his brains out. Shortly thereafter you would discover it doesnt feel as good as you imagined. Later on, months later perhaps it's become appearant that you're mentally screwed up because of it.
A guy like you or me would have a pretty slim chance in a war situation versus a psychopath because while you are busy diluting the crap in your pants with piss the sociopath does what he does best: calmly turn you inside out and enjoy it.

Most sociopaths in peacetime are relatively non-suspect. Moody perhaps, or "a real bastard" in a run of the mill way.. But some of them some of the time "snap" and commit atrocities that you got to go to disgusting websites for, because you won't ever see those on the news.

Sociopaths are burdened people, but if they go too far they should be prevented from committing such harm in the future.

A sociopath who crossed the line isn't "crazy" and in a weird way perhaps not even a "criminal", but rather is a predator whereas we are sheep. I think as an alternative for lifelong imprisonment it would be best to thoroughly fence in a large stretch of land and let them live there in a society they themselves create. Just as there are less shootinmgs if not a few but rather everybody owns a gun, there will be less killing in a pack of wolves rather than in a predator-and-prey enviroment. It's more humane than life imprisonment and capital punishment in my view is not an option on this side of the fence.

Sociopaths in war are superior killers, but a good soldier is lawful, humane, obeys orders and is a team player, and these qualities aren't the sociopath's strongpoints.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4651253 - 09/12/05 06:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I didn't say they prevail, I said they exist"

Well...

"Is this man a sociopath or all soldiers like that?"

You asked a question. I answered.




I forgot how I composed my first post


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4651449 - 09/12/05 07:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Stabbing some guy in the back so that you can steal his wallet and eat for another day isn't going to ensure your survival tomorrow when some family member of his hunts you down.



It will ensure your survival if a family member doesn't come. Would you rather starve to death?

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Creating a world of war simply increases the threats to the survival of one's own child.



Unless there is no child. In any case, it ensures that the survivors are better suited to carry on humanity and deserve their existence.


Quote:

Veritas said:
The will to power over others, as opposed to power for others, is not based upon expansion or "getting things done," but fear that you are not worthy of Love.



Upon what evidence do you base your assertions?

Quote:

Veritas said:
Greed does not create a product, it merely perpetuates the illusion of lack and loneliness.



You do not believe that anything has ever been created out of greed? If someone has nothing and nobody how is it an illusion? Why can greed(which can drive determination) not be used to overcome lack and loneliness?


Quote:

MJF said:
As much as our army may seem completely volunteered...our soldiers are deceived by recruiters



How are they deceived?

Quote:

MJF said:
and in many cases they have been brought up to think they must join the military because "what else are they supposed to do?"



Who do you know that was brought up to think "What else am I supposed to do?"?
Upbringing has little to do with it. Not being able to find a job that pays livable wages or not being able to afford college has a greater impact in the decision process.
Tell me, what else are they supposed to do?


Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
yea but in war they get a pat on the back and for it,



Soldiers do not get a pat on the back for killing civilians.

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Sociopaths in time of peace lave less chance of doing damage because they don't have thir own rocket launcher.



It's not that hard to make a bomb that will inflict way more damage than a rocket launcher. A person(civilian or soldier) bent on injuring the innocent will get it done one way or another.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4651719 - 09/12/05 08:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Hatred is one of the most effective and useful emotions created by natural selection so as to expand our will to power, and without expansion nothing would get done. Hatred is much better than the love bullshit all the hippies will espouse; but notice the hippies have mostly died off compared to the soldiers. Those who espouse love will come and go, but those who espouse hatred will remain faithful forever.




Upon what evidence do you base your assertions?




It's rather basic logic to me; I don't think I made any remarks that couldn't be verified by simply thinking about them. In a world without hatred, humanity as a species probably wouldn't be nearly as advanced as we are today, since much of our technology originates in warfare and battle. It's only afterwards that the vast amount of money spent in warfare technology is taken up by the common civilian to enhance everyday life, but survival and expansion have almost always come first.

In the overall history of humanity, there is the occassional person who implements love into many of their actions, but a lot of time these delusional people are quickly killed off. Those who espouse hatred are often those who rise to power and end up in the positions of control, making hatred a more useful emotion in overall politics and affairs of the world than love in my opinion.

Quote:

IMO Hatred = contraction/rejection of self and others,
Love = expansion/acceptance of self and others.




How does hatred lead to the rejection of self? It's simply one useful emotion among many; both love and hatred in the end strive for the same unified goal of survival, which transcends the simple notion of the self.

Quote:

Perhaps the sterotypical peace-and-love hippies of the 60's are not as evident as they were during the Vietnam War, but belief in Love and the creative forces of Life has not "died out." Far from it.

The will to power over others, as opposed to power for others, is not based upon expansion or "getting things done," but fear that you are not worthy of Love. Greed does not create a product, it merely perpetuates the illusion of lack and loneliness.




I see people espousing "love" all the time, as if it was some all-permeating consciousness throughout the universe, but luckily human actions do not reflect this. It's much more efficient to judge a species by its overall actions than the words some of its members speak, and in the majority of cases I only see love where it will enhance the person's survival. Jesus may have been delusional or had some genetic flaw, but altruism will not survive very long before its exploited by the selfish individuals, therefore making the altruist who loves others for no reason die out rather quickly. For every Jesus we find, 100 Judas-like individuals will be right behind him.

Quote:

My subjective experience has taught me that a life of hatred creates only deadness, while a life of Love and Joy reveals the beauty and grace of being alive.




Deadness eh? Most people with hatred are still alive; many of these people, if chaos or fighting ever broke out, would be much better prepared for their own survival than any fool espousing Absolute Love in my opinion. Delusional beliefs about love can flourish during times of peace and prosperity, but once these periods end humans revert back to a more truthful stage of existence.

Love, like any emotion, is only useful as far as it ensures survival. By the evidence I've seen, love is not consciousness, love is not a force, love isn't even mystical; it's simply another chemical reaction in the mammalian brain. Love is useful for unifying during certain periods, but when the period changes, different weapons for survival must be used, and hatred is one of the most effective of these in any period. Love is used for reproduction and stability, but hatred is used for expansion, warfare and domination, which then leads to newer technology and products. Both are useful to human survival; I don't deny that. But on the whole, hatred is vastly underrated compared to love, and in many aspects, hatred is more useful.


--------------------
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4654577 - 09/13/05 01:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ravus, your cynicism is staggering and chilling. I believe you when you say that you see the difference between love and hatred being one of effectiveness, and I feel very sad about that.

Rather than address each of your counterpoints individually, I will ask the question which drove my initial response:

What makes us want to be alive?

IMO survival is overrated if it ensures more years experiencing the world as a cold, meaningless place.

"By the evidence I've seen, love is not consciousness, love is not a force, love isn't even mystical; it's simply another chemical reaction in the mammalian brain."

I'm not sure what "evidence" you may be referring to, beyond basic neurological research? My own experience, which contradicted my original scientific stance, reveals that Love is consciousness, and is the Life force which powers this whole show.

Perhaps it would be more descriptive/accurate to call it Tao?

Romantic love, hippie love, parental love, etc...are all tempered human expressions of this force, but NOT the whole enchilada.



Edited by Veritas (09/13/05 01:51 PM)


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4654809 - 09/13/05 02:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
IMO survival is overrated if it ensures more years experiencing the world as a cold, meaningless place.



That's sad. Maybe moving to a more temperate climate is in order. Meaning is a value that each of us assigns to this place (or not). Meaning is not an externality but a subjective concept, it's worth only being realized in the eye of the beholder.


--------------------
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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4654854 - 09/13/05 02:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My point was not that I see this world as a cold and meaningless place, but that focusing on hatred and the mechanistic aspects of survival promotes this variety of subjective experience.

Maybe I'm wrong, and Love is NOT the force that powers the Universe.  However, my life experience is improved by holding this belief.  I feel more joy, more pleasure, more delight when I am focused on Love rather than hatred.  That's the sort of mistake I am very willing to make! :wink:


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4654902 - 09/13/05 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, you are not wrong.

I recently did read...live and believe stem from the same word-roots...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4655238 - 09/13/05 03:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
That may be a correct assumption, however the popularity of the notion is no determinant of whether or not it is the correct or best way to organize things. It is also irrelevant to whether or not people should be blind tools for those who give orders.




Do you have a better way of organizing things?

I think it is relevant. A soldier joins the military making the conscious decision to serve his country. That is his decision. There is nothing blind about it.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
So, people should follow orders because the system says people should follow orders. Hmmm, very deep.




If they choose to follow orders, then they should follow orders.

Again, I agree with decisions made at the top, and carried out at the bottom. What system do you like?


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655253 - 09/13/05 03:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
My point was not that I see this world as a cold and meaningless place, but that focusing on hatred and the mechanistic aspects of survival promotes this variety of subjective experience.

Maybe I'm wrong, and Love is NOT the force that powers the Universe.  However, my life experience is improved by holding this belief.  I feel more joy, more pleasure, more delight when I am focused on Love rather than hatred.  That's the sort of mistake I am very willing to make! :wink:




Emotion is a tool that can be used by individuals and groups. When you understand and utilize the tool to your (or your groups) benefit, then it has done its job.

Forget about cold, meaningless, or sad. It also has nothing to do with being cynical, but opening up the possibilities for a human being to utilize all power available to him.

It is an empowering view!


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655294 - 09/13/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Love is a tool? How is that NOT a cynical POV?

Utilizing the power available to you is a successful strategy so long as the price is not your enjoyment of life. In my observations of others, I have seen again and again that anger and hatred burn bright and at great personal cost.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655309 - 09/13/05 04:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
In my observations of others, I have seen again and again that anger and hatred burn bright and at great personal cost.




You may be right. But not everyone is enlightened and can use hatred responsibly.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655314 - 09/13/05 04:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How would one use hatred responsibly?


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655318 - 09/13/05 04:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ravus already outlined some methods.

It is great in a time of war.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655327 - 09/13/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, OK. I thought you had something different to say.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655436 - 09/13/05 04:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Love is a tool? How is that NOT a cynical POV?




From a Darwinistic point of view, everything is a tool. If it can be exploited for success, it will be, and love is very easily exploited. Look at how many people use other caring human beings, how evolution has created successful family structures and sexual relationships revolving around love. I don't know what your definition of love is, but it must be drastically different from the common definition to think that it's not another tool of Darwinism.

Quote:

Utilizing the power available to you is a successful strategy so long as the price is not your enjoyment of life. In my observations of others, I have seen again and again that anger and hatred burn bright and at great personal cost.




Enjoyment is simply another tool that tries to set humans on the right path. Naturally, if a human has food, water, warmth, shelter and other humans, he will enjoy himself. Modern developed society has distorted enjoyment into some impossible goal for many since they hand people everything, making them think basic comfort is the norm, but in nature this is not the case.

In my opinion, it is better for one to use anger and hatred to burn bright and leave a deep mark on the world, than it is for one to use love and fade out without giving anything of any real significance. Greatness lies from exploiting all tools handed to you, not just one or two pleasant ones.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4655464 - 09/13/05 04:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, let's assume that Darwin had everything figured out. Not that he was a philosopher, or probably even interested in applying his scientific research to the "big questions."

If you buy that, I have this plumber friend who has solved the whole cold fusion dilemma. After all, his years of work with toilet snaking amply prepared him to understand atomic energy.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: looner2]
    #4655483 - 09/13/05 04:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But not everyone is enlightened and can use hatred responsibly.




I don't think that a sociopath, once unhinged, can *control* his hastred, and that makes it useless because keeping your head clear gets the job done. A sociopath will not watch his fellow soldier's back... well, to locate the best vertebrae to shove a knife between, perhaps.
A sociopath in your platoon is having a hostile in your platoon. They can turn on their fellows unpredictably.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Veritas]
    #4655493 - 09/13/05 04:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Contrary to what some say, Darwinism isn't Darwin. Darwin gave us the seeds for Darwinism, and also his name, but the entire field of biology and life (as in you and me, including our emotions and outlook on life) go into Darwinism. Hundreds of biologists, if not thousands, have significantly added to Darwinism, making it beyond the scope of any one man to delve into something so deep and so developed by the scientific world. Even in the modern day we're still learning more about this fascinating centerpiece of all biology and life.

Philosophers are not scientists, and vice versa. Philosophers argue and debate to come to conclusions; scientists experiment and observe to create stable theories. Scientists on the whole have a much better method for finding the truth.


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Re: sociopaths in war [Re: Ravus]
    #4655550 - 09/13/05 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That depends on what variety of "truth" you are seeking. Scientists can study our biology until the end of time, and they will still be just plumbers tinkering with cold fusion when it comes to spiritual truths.

The effective way to "experiment" with spiritual truths is within your own life and through in-depth observations of others.


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