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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Help.....I've been bested!!!
    #964909 - 10/16/02 02:38 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

OK...here's the deal.....I had an absolutley awesome debate tonight with a lady that is smart as a whip. She is in the same field as me (biochemistry) but she is working toward her PhD in computer science (leaning on A.I.). I made this off the cuff remark: "you aren't going to be one of those people that believes A.I. should have the same rights as humans or any living thing for that matter". This turned into one of those intelligent debates that you actually enjoy because each party takes time to listen, understand, and ask questions.

PREMISE: You create some form of A.I. which can exactly mimic any and all
human responses to any and all stimuli.

QUESTION: Would it be immoral to shut it down (kill it)?

I say no. Kill the sucker....it is only machinery.

We covered everything from definition of life, to free will, to God.....the whole enchilada. I made a valiant effort but she cornered me in the end and all I could come up with in the end was that it just seems OK by my intuition. Any debater or philosopher worth their weight would have gagged at that kind of answer but it was all I had left.

So what are your feelings on this subject? If it could exactly mimic life how could you ever deny it was actually alive?

As the discussion progresses, I will reveal more of the argument I presented to her.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (10/16/02 02:51 AM)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #964919 - 10/16/02 02:40 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...




kill it and roast it for dinner.



--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Evolving]
    #964972 - 10/16/02 02:59 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

At some point we got around to free will

I said:  At any given point a person can go against any set of instructions or
            training. (free will). The A.I. is a slave essentially. It can only react/act
            based on the algorithms and instructions programmed into it.

Her rebuttle:  Humans are genetically programmed. Humans only react/act based
                    on the DNA instructions programmed in us. (Obviously she doesn't
                    believe in free will).

To a certain extent she is correct. Humans do react within a certain frame of their genetic programming. I believe however that we are capable of acting contrary to our genetic programming. i.e. a child molester feels compelled to touch children but can refrain from such activity.She said only if it is in our programming, will this be possible. She is driving at the fact that there is no difference between us and the A.I.

You see how sticky this gets.

I told you she was good. Although she debates this regularly as it is her field. (my lousy attempt at salvaging my ego :grin:


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (10/16/02 03:03 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #965026 - 10/16/02 03:39 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Her rebuttle: Humans are genetically programmed. Humans only react/act based
on the DNA instructions programmed in us. (Obviously she doesn't
believe in free will).


This is the compatibilist argument (the majority of the AI field is composed of compatibilists).
As I've stated numerous times before... it is horseshit. (Do a search... I'm lazy)

If you want help, I can offer you a good argument... but I doubt it will change her mind. It didn't change my professor's mind, though he could not refute it.

It comes down to choosing one of the two assertions:
true randomness exists OR it doesn't

I have many (holistic) reasons as to why free will works out better for me, but they're just reasons... not proof. If you want to hear them... ask me tomorrow.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #965491 - 10/16/02 10:45 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

PREMISE: You create some form of A.I. which can exactly mimic any and all human responses to any and all stimuli.

Ah. The hypothetical "perfect Turing Machine". The key concept here is "mimic". Think about it for a while.

The other point that needs clarification is the "response to stimuli" proviso. Humans do a lot more than respond to stimuli. They initiate courses of action in the absence of stimuli.

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965651 - 10/16/02 12:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

>It comes down to choosing one of the two assertions:
>true randomness exists OR it doesn't

Sclorch, are you hedging?  just admit it, randomness exists :smile:

AI will be built with randomness, so...

the assumption that AI will be a predetermined program with predictable input/outputs is shaky at best.  why do so many limit their imagination to this boring ideal - i think they want slaves, not real AI.

chemkid, dont you have better things to do then make morals about things we do not know?  you should sit down with this lady and make AI.  hell if I ever met a woman who was into AI, i'd be gettin my game on!!  :grin: 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: pattern]
    #965740 - 10/16/02 01:41 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

AI will be built with randomness

First, you'll have to figure out how to make a computer produce a truly random number.



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: pattern]
    #965792 - 10/16/02 02:11 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Before we go on... and just so I don't lose anybody...
The reason randomness is needed: adaptability only works in a random environment. Adaptability is a necessary attribute of intelligence. Also, I don't think "artificial" intelligence is possible... if it's artificial, it's only mimicking- I contend that it is impossible to create such an "intelligence" (think Bladerunner). "Man-made" intelligence would be a better moniker.

the assumption that AI will be a predetermined program with predictable input/outputs is shaky at best. why do so many limit their imagination to this boring ideal - i think they want slaves, not real AI.

I'm glad you see it this way. This is part of the problem I had with my Philosophy of Mind professor. He wouldn't step away from determinism... he was a bit obsessed with the idea of SuperParry.

Pattern: AI will be built with randomness
infidelGOD: First, you'll have to figure out how to make a computer produce a truly random number.

Simple-
1. photon generator + polarizer... light is either horizontally or vertically polarized.
2. radiation emission

Now, you have these randomness generators in place. Find a way to measure each (easy), hook it up to the computer... now comes the tough part. How much of an effect should this randomness have on the computer? How should the software interact with it? How many levels of programming are necessary? Do we have to use a PDP system?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965812 - 10/16/02 02:21 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, that's not the computer producing randomness... it's taking an input.

There are random number generators in existence that take input from temperature variations to generate random numbers. But a computer can't spontaneously "create" a random number.

And then there is the issue of whether it's *really* random or not but lets not go there again. :wink:
I'll use the word "random", but as you know, it has a different meaning to me than "it just happens without any order".


An interesting question is: if such a system produces an AI, what is the source of the consciousness/intelligence/free will? The computer?, or the thing that generates the "randomness" (the universe)?
 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #965838 - 10/16/02 02:36 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, that's not the computer producing randomness... it's taking an input.

Show me an intelligent being that takes no input.


An interesting question is: if such a system produces an AI, what is the source of the consciousness/intelligence/free will? The computer?, or the thing that generates the "randomness" (the universe)?

Did you forget this already?:
You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability. Randomness initiates a change. By assuming formlessness (being adaptable), a being can continue to function/survive in spite of these changes. I think free will is a metafunction of our adaptive nature. It really isn't BASED in the physical plane... however the physical provides a foundation for free will. This is how I connect them. Take a computer for instance, you can have programs that run on top of programs and on and on... This is how I view our consciousness (minus the 1/0 aspect of the computer). We adapt... the key part of this ability to adapt is free will- the ability to truly make a choice.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965875 - 10/16/02 02:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, didn't you also say that microscopic turbulence in the brain explains free will (or something like that)? So, the brain doesn't necessarily take random input, like the computer you described, it's creating randomness, or more accurately, it contains randomness.

But a computer cannot generate randomness, it can only take randomness as an input. So is the source of the intelligence created by such a machine in the machine, or in the randomness that is input?



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965965 - 10/16/02 03:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

So, the brain doesn't necessarily take random input, like the computer you described, it's creating randomness, or more accurately, it contains randomness.

(not just turbulence in the brain... all external stimuli has a random aspect to it)
So you create a turbulence generator with a tank of fluid.

But a computer cannot generate randomness, it can only take randomness as an input.
See above.

So is the source of the intelligence created by such a machine in the machine, or in the randomness that is input?

You really have a reading comprehension problem don'tcha?
AGAIN-
Randomness initiates the unpredictable (shutup) changes that make adaptability necessary for survival (basic evolution here). Free will is the epitome of this adaptability. It is an evolutionary response to random change.

The source of free will is not tangible... it is a PROCESS. I don't know if I can be much clearer than this. Of course, we don't know how that software-like process works yet... we have only begun to understand how the brain works (too bad there is so little research being done with psychedelics- I think they are key to this field).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Evolving]
    #966002 - 10/16/02 03:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck... kill it and roast it for dinner.
no, YOU do it first!


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #966035 - 10/16/02 03:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

PREMISE: You create some form of A.I. which can exactly mimic (see pinksharkmark's post) any and all human responses to any and all stimuli.

QUESTION: Would it be immoral to shut it down (kill it)?


no.

but, if it is really conscious, yes.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966053 - 10/16/02 03:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If the brain just responds (or adapts, via free will) to the randomness in its fluids, then the function of the brain would be entirely dependant on the behaviour of this random "input". In other words, if randomness is an illusion, so is free will. I don't like the idea that the existence of free will hinges on whether physical randomess is real or not. There must be another way to understand free will but I know you'll have none of that spiritual BS right?

So you create a turbulence generator with a tank of fluid.

I don't think you can seperate turbulence in the fluids of the brain and the brain itself. The brain has randomness internally, without need for any external stimli, whereas a computer cannot internally create randomness.

"So is the source of the intelligence created by such a machine in the machine, or in the randomness that is input?"

You really have a reading comprehension problem don'tcha?


remind me never to ask you another rhetorical question.  :grin:

Of course, we don't know how that software-like process works yet...

I can't explain free will either. It's essentially a mysterious process that defies explanation. I think if we could explain free will in terms of a physical mechanism then sentient AI is possible - so it's not just a matter of processing power and simulating the brain, we have to understand the process behind free will. Metafunctions and adaptability is all fine and good but it doesn't explain how a machine would exert a will on its environment, a machine can only respond. In order to "output" free will, it must respond to random input, it cannot create randomness on its own, like the human brain.
 


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #966207 - 10/16/02 04:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

consider this scenario:

You have a duck that's essentially a machine and it has A.I. inside that mimics the reactions and actions of a real duck. Ok, so this little quacking machine wobbles over to your feet. I give you a hammer and tell you to destroy it. You happily take the hammer and get ready to take a swing at it. As you raise the hammer and are about to strike it, it cries out (in quacks of course) and tries to run away from you. You give it chase and take another swing, this time making contact. As it shrieks loudly, little parts of machinery fling out as well as some lubricants and oils from inside it. You stand over it, raise the hammer for the final time, and as it comes down, it lets out one last paintful quack and ceases to exist.

The point is, the A.I. duck can sense it's doom and therefore it knows it will "die" soon. If you kill something that thinks it's alive, isn't it the same as killing something that really is alive?


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chodamunky]
    #966231 - 10/16/02 04:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I quack, therefore I am.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966248 - 10/16/02 05:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

> Well, that's not the computer producing randomness... it's taking an input.

it doesnt matter if the computer produces randomness or not.

computers run off power. do you want computers to make their own energy too?

there is a point where you have to accept what a computer can/cant do.

a human cant live and be conscious without food, it doesnt follow that our consciousness/freewill comes from food.

my point is that an AI built with randomness would not need to produce its own randomness, and would only be partially made of randomness.

> if such a system produces an AI, what is the source of the
> consciousness/intelligence/free will?

the "system".

> computer?, or the thing that generates the "randomness" (the universe)?

the combination of the two.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966310 - 10/16/02 05:25 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

That last paragraph is pretty much right on with what I'm saying.

If the brain just responds (or adapts, via free will) to the randomness in its fluids, then the function of the brain would be entirely dependant on the behaviour of this random "input".

Not exactly. Randomness has no behavior... hence it's RANDOM. Whatever...
When you say "metafunction" further down, it nullifies your sentence here.

In other words, if randomness is an illusion, so is free will. I don't like the idea that the existence of free will hinges on whether physical randomess is real or not.

Let's make this simple:
There is no freedom in formulas.
If the universe is deterministic (no randomness), then there is no free will whatsoever.
"But... but... what if God 'gives' you free will?"
I'm sorry... NO, you still don't have free will. (this is thinking of free will statically)

Your problem with my concept of free will doesn't lie in physics.
Your problem is a spritual one.
Your free will depends upon the existence of a "soul" (and/or God).

Unless you reject those self-serving beliefs, these kinds of philosophical "problems" will constantly plague you.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: pattern]
    #966324 - 10/16/02 05:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

my point is that an AI built with randomness would not need to produce its own randomness, and would only be partially made of randomness.

A computer cannot produce randomness. It can use complex algorithms to simulate randomness, but to get the real thing, it has to look to nature - it has to have some sort of input.

A human brain on the other hand, has randomness built in.

Yeah, a computer can have a fluid system that can produce random turbulence, but that's just the physical computer and it has to have sensors (input) to read the random turbulence. But think about just the concept of a logical calculating device - it cannot ever create a truly random number.

You can seperate the two concepts with a computer (physical/conceptual), but not with the human brain/mind. A computer (physical) can run many different programs (conceptual), but the human brain is a self-contained computer AND program. It's inseperable. It has it's own randomness built in (brain chemistry), as well as sensors and output. And of course it has that special ingredient that will probably never be replicated in a machine, although you may be able to create a convincing simulation of human consciouness - it's not the same thing.



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