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Help.....I've been bested!!!
    #964909 -

OK...here's the deal.....I had an absolutley awesome debate tonight with a lady that is smart as a whip. She is in the same field as me (biochemistry) but she is working toward her PhD in computer science (leaning on A.I.). I made this off the cuff remark: "you aren't going to be one of those people that believes A.I. should have the same rights as humans or any living thing for that matter". This turned into one of those intelligent debates that you actually enjoy because each party takes time to listen, understand, and ask questions.

PREMISE: You create some form of A.I. which can exactly mimic any and all
human responses to any and all stimuli.

QUESTION: Would it be immoral to shut it down (kill it)?

I say no. Kill the sucker....it is only machinery.

We covered everything from definition of life, to free will, to God.....the whole enchilada. I made a valiant effort but she cornered me in the end and all I could come up with in the end was that it just seems OK by my intuition. Any debater or philosopher worth their weight would have gagged at that kind of answer but it was all I had left.

So what are your feelings on this subject? If it could exactly mimic life how could you ever deny it was actually alive?

As the discussion progresses, I will reveal more of the argument I presented to her.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (10/16/02 12:51 AM)

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #964919 -

Well, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...




kill it and roast it for dinner.



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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Evolving]
    #964972 -

At some point we got around to free will

I said:  At any given point a person can go against any set of instructions or
            training. (free will). The A.I. is a slave essentially. It can only react/act
            based on the algorithms and instructions programmed into it.

Her rebuttle:  Humans are genetically programmed. Humans only react/act based
                    on the DNA instructions programmed in us. (Obviously she doesn't
                    believe in free will).

To a certain extent she is correct. Humans do react within a certain frame of their genetic programming. I believe however that we are capable of acting contrary to our genetic programming. i.e. a child molester feels compelled to touch children but can refrain from such activity.She said only if it is in our programming, will this be possible. She is driving at the fact that there is no difference between us and the A.I.

You see how sticky this gets.

I told you she was good. Although she debates this regularly as it is her field. (my lousy attempt at salvaging my ego :grin:) 


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (10/16/02 01:03 AM)

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #965026 -

Her rebuttle: Humans are genetically programmed. Humans only react/act based
on the DNA instructions programmed in us. (Obviously she doesn't
believe in free will).

This is the compatibilist argument (the majority of the AI field is composed of compatibilists).
As I've stated numerous times before... it is horseshit. (Do a search... I'm lazy)

If you want help, I can offer you a good argument... but I doubt it will change her mind. It didn't change my professor's mind, though he could not refute it.

It comes down to choosing one of the two assertions:
true randomness exists OR it doesn't

I have many (holistic) reasons as to why free will works out better for me, but they're just reasons... not proof. If you want to hear them... ask me tomorrow.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #965491 -

PREMISE: You create some form of A.I. which can exactly mimic any and all human responses to any and all stimuli.

Ah. The hypothetical "perfect Turing Machine". The key concept here is "mimic". Think about it for a while.

The other point that needs clarification is the "response to stimuli" proviso. Humans do a lot more than respond to stimuli. They initiate courses of action in the absence of stimuli.

pinky


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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965651 -

>It comes down to choosing one of the two assertions:
>true randomness exists OR it doesn't

Sclorch, are you hedging?  just admit it, randomness exists :smile:

AI will be built with randomness, so...

the assumption that AI will be a predetermined program with predictable input/outputs is shaky at best.  why do so many limit their imagination to this boring ideal - i think they want slaves, not real AI.

chemkid, dont you have better things to do then make morals about things we do not know?  you should sit down with this lady and make AI.  hell if I ever met a woman who was into AI, i'd be gettin my game on!!  :grin: 


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: pattern]
    #965740 -

AI will be built with randomness

First, you'll have to figure out how to make a computer produce a truly random number.


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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: pattern]
    #965792 -

Before we go on... and just so I don't lose anybody...
The reason randomness is needed: adaptability only works in a random environment. Adaptability is a necessary attribute of intelligence. Also, I don't think "artificial" intelligence is possible... if it's artificial, it's only mimicking- I contend that it is impossible to create such an "intelligence" (think Bladerunner). "Man-made" intelligence would be a better moniker.

the assumption that AI will be a predetermined program with predictable input/outputs is shaky at best. why do so many limit their imagination to this boring ideal - i think they want slaves, not real AI.

I'm glad you see it this way. This is part of the problem I had with my Philosophy of Mind professor. He wouldn't step away from determinism... he was a bit obsessed with the idea of SuperParry.

Pattern: AI will be built with randomness
infidelGOD: First, you'll have to figure out how to make a computer produce a truly random number.

Simple-
1. photon generator + polarizer... light is either horizontally or vertically polarized.
2. radiation emission

Now, you have these randomness generators in place. Find a way to measure each (easy), hook it up to the computer... now comes the tough part. How much of an effect should this randomness have on the computer? How should the software interact with it? How many levels of programming are necessary? Do we have to use a PDP system?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965812 -

Well, that's not the computer producing randomness... it's taking an input.

There are random number generators in existence that take input from temperature variations to generate random numbers. But a computer can't spontaneously "create" a random number.

And then there is the issue of whether it's *really* random or not but lets not go there again. :wink:
I'll use the word "random", but as you know, it has a different meaning to me than "it just happens without any order".


An interesting question is: if such a system produces an AI, what is the source of the consciousness/intelligence/free will? The computer?, or the thing that generates the "randomness" (the universe)?
 

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #965838 -

Well, that's not the computer producing randomness... it's taking an input.

Show me an intelligent being that takes no input.


An interesting question is: if such a system produces an AI, what is the source of the consciousness/intelligence/free will? The computer?, or the thing that generates the "randomness" (the universe)?

Did you forget this already?:
You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability. Randomness initiates a change. By assuming formlessness (being adaptable), a being can continue to function/survive in spite of these changes. I think free will is a metafunction of our adaptive nature. It really isn't BASED in the physical plane... however the physical provides a foundation for free will. This is how I connect them. Take a computer for instance, you can have programs that run on top of programs and on and on... This is how I view our consciousness (minus the 1/0 aspect of the computer). We adapt... the key part of this ability to adapt is free will- the ability to truly make a choice.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965875 -

Well, didn't you also say that microscopic turbulence in the brain explains free will (or something like that)? So, the brain doesn't necessarily take random input, like the computer you described, it's creating randomness, or more accurately, it contains randomness.

But a computer cannot generate randomness, it can only take randomness as an input. So is the source of the intelligence created by such a machine in the machine, or in the randomness that is input?


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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #965965 -

So, the brain doesn't necessarily take random input, like the computer you described, it's creating randomness, or more accurately, it contains randomness.

(not just turbulence in the brain... all external stimuli has a random aspect to it)
So you create a turbulence generator with a tank of fluid.

But a computer cannot generate randomness, it can only take randomness as an input.
See above.

So is the source of the intelligence created by such a machine in the machine, or in the randomness that is input?

You really have a reading comprehension problem don'tcha?
AGAIN-
Randomness initiates the unpredictable (shutup) changes that make adaptability necessary for survival (basic evolution here). Free will is the epitome of this adaptability. It is an evolutionary response to random change.

The source of free will is not tangible... it is a PROCESS. I don't know if I can be much clearer than this. Of course, we don't know how that software-like process works yet... we have only begun to understand how the brain works (too bad there is so little research being done with psychedelics- I think they are key to this field).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Evolving]
    #966002 -

Well, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck... kill it and roast it for dinner.
no, YOU do it first!

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #966035 -

PREMISE: You create some form of A.I. which can exactly mimic (see pinksharkmark's post) any and all human responses to any and all stimuli.

QUESTION: Would it be immoral to shut it down (kill it)?

no.

but, if it is really conscious, yes.

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966053 -

If the brain just responds (or adapts, via free will) to the randomness in its fluids, then the function of the brain would be entirely dependant on the behaviour of this random "input". In other words, if randomness is an illusion, so is free will. I don't like the idea that the existence of free will hinges on whether physical randomess is real or not. There must be another way to understand free will but I know you'll have none of that spiritual BS right?

So you create a turbulence generator with a tank of fluid.

I don't think you can seperate turbulence in the fluids of the brain and the brain itself. The brain has randomness internally, without need for any external stimli, whereas a computer cannot internally create randomness.

"So is the source of the intelligence created by such a machine in the machine, or in the randomness that is input?"

You really have a reading comprehension problem don'tcha?

remind me never to ask you another rhetorical question.  :grin:

Of course, we don't know how that software-like process works yet...

I can't explain free will either. It's essentially a mysterious process that defies explanation. I think if we could explain free will in terms of a physical mechanism then sentient AI is possible - so it's not just a matter of processing power and simulating the brain, we have to understand the process behind free will. Metafunctions and adaptability is all fine and good but it doesn't explain how a machine would exert a will on its environment, a machine can only respond. In order to "output" free will, it must respond to random input, it cannot create randomness on its own, like the human brain.
 

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #966207 -

consider this scenario:

You have a duck that's essentially a machine and it has A.I. inside that mimics the reactions and actions of a real duck. Ok, so this little quacking machine wobbles over to your feet. I give you a hammer and tell you to destroy it. You happily take the hammer and get ready to take a swing at it. As you raise the hammer and are about to strike it, it cries out (in quacks of course) and tries to run away from you. You give it chase and take another swing, this time making contact. As it shrieks loudly, little parts of machinery fling out as well as some lubricants and oils from inside it. You stand over it, raise the hammer for the final time, and as it comes down, it lets out one last paintful quack and ceases to exist.

The point is, the A.I. duck can sense it's doom and therefore it knows it will "die" soon. If you kill something that thinks it's alive, isn't it the same as killing something that really is alive?

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chodamunky]
    #966231 -

I quack, therefore I am.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966248 -

> Well, that's not the computer producing randomness... it's taking an input.

it doesnt matter if the computer produces randomness or not.

computers run off power. do you want computers to make their own energy too?

there is a point where you have to accept what a computer can/cant do.

a human cant live and be conscious without food, it doesnt follow that our consciousness/freewill comes from food.

my point is that an AI built with randomness would not need to produce its own randomness, and would only be partially made of randomness.

> if such a system produces an AI, what is the source of the
> consciousness/intelligence/free will?

the "system".

> computer?, or the thing that generates the "randomness" (the universe)?

the combination of the two.


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966310 -

That last paragraph is pretty much right on with what I'm saying.

If the brain just responds (or adapts, via free will) to the randomness in its fluids, then the function of the brain would be entirely dependant on the behaviour of this random "input".

Not exactly. Randomness has no behavior... hence it's RANDOM. Whatever...
When you say "metafunction" further down, it nullifies your sentence here.

In other words, if randomness is an illusion, so is free will. I don't like the idea that the existence of free will hinges on whether physical randomess is real or not.

Let's make this simple:
There is no freedom in formulas.
If the universe is deterministic (no randomness), then there is no free will whatsoever.
"But... but... what if God 'gives' you free will?"
I'm sorry... NO, you still don't have free will. (this is thinking of free will statically)

Your problem with my concept of free will doesn't lie in physics.
Your problem is a spritual one.
Your free will depends upon the existence of a "soul" (and/or God).

Unless you reject those self-serving beliefs, these kinds of philosophical "problems" will constantly plague you.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: pattern]
    #966324 -

my point is that an AI built with randomness would not need to produce its own randomness, and would only be partially made of randomness.

A computer cannot produce randomness. It can use complex algorithms to simulate randomness, but to get the real thing, it has to look to nature - it has to have some sort of input.

A human brain on the other hand, has randomness built in.

Yeah, a computer can have a fluid system that can produce random turbulence, but that's just the physical computer and it has to have sensors (input) to read the random turbulence. But think about just the concept of a logical calculating device - it cannot ever create a truly random number.

You can seperate the two concepts with a computer (physical/conceptual), but not with the human brain/mind. A computer (physical) can run many different programs (conceptual), but the human brain is a self-contained computer AND program. It's inseperable. It has it's own randomness built in (brain chemistry), as well as sensors and output. And of course it has that special ingredient that will probably never be replicated in a machine, although you may be able to create a convincing simulation of human consciouness - it's not the same thing.


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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966338 -

Self serving beliefs? you mean like the belief in randomness?

I can't prove God exists.

Can you devise an experiment to prove that randomness exists?

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966360 -


The reason randomness is needed: adaptability only works in a random environment. Adaptability is a necessary attribute of intelligence.

Agreed!  Evolution must occur by naturally selecting random changes... without a good source of randomness I dont see any other way about it.  The AI brain will likely be a type of internally-evolving network, adapting to new, unpredictable  information.


Also, I don't think "artificial" intelligence is possible... if it's artificial, it's only mimicking- I contend that it is impossible to create such an "intelligence" (think Bladerunner). "Man-made" intelligence would be a better moniker.

dont be so picky!  we dont have AI yet, so it doesnt really mean anything.  :smile:


I'm glad you see it this way. This is part of the problem I had with my Philosophy of Mind professor. He wouldn't step away from determinism... he was a bit obsessed with the idea of SuperParry.

Determinism is dying of boredom.  :grin:


How much of an effect should this randomness have on the computer? How should the software interact with it?

The standard practice is to wait until the software asks for a random number.

ex: myNumber = RandomNumberBetween(1, 4)

 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966404 -

Self serving beliefs? you mean like the belief in randomness?
I can't prove God exists.

I have no use for believing that things I experience are illusory. I experience free will (as do you), therefore it is real (until proven otherwise). The problem comes in when metaphysical beliefs begin to butt heads with our experiences. If you like free will, but believe in an all-powerful God that knows the future... then you're going to have some problems. You have to come up with a new theory to "unify" these different forces.

I offered you a solution to the free will issue... that's all.
Can I prove that free will exists? No.
Can I prove that you exist? No.
Do I experience both? Yes.
Can I justify my belief in both based on my experience alone? I think so.

God hasn't presented any hard evidence for me to believe in him/her/whatever, therefore I do not believe in God. Besides, even if there was a God, it wouldn't change a damn thing in my life- I refuse to take the role of a rat in a cage (I guess I have more rage than Billy Corgan).

Can you devise an experiment to prove that randomness exists?

I experience randomness... that's good enough for me. Computer's have yet to be able to predict anything perfectly... more proof for me (and determinists SHOULD have the burden of proof on this one).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966459 -

The problem comes in when metaphysical beliefs begin to butt heads with our experiences

Ah, but I think that free will is a metaphysical belief AND it's something that I experience. Didn't you say that it isn't based on the physical plane? So isn't it beyond physical - metaphysical? "Spiritual" even?  or maybe you want to avoid the connotations of that word...
Suffice it to say that free will is unexplainable.


As for God, I don't "experience" God the way I experience free will. It's a vague concept for me, I do sometimes doubt his existence, and I definitely don't think of him as some all powerful deity that concerns himself with human affairs. You seem to be limiting your concept of God to the one imposed by the monotheistic religions. Theology has progressed quite a bit since then (although most theologans would consider my concept of God to be heresy but fuck them  :smile:).

When I say "God" I'm using that word for lack of a better word.... you know what I'm talking about - The Undefinable...

Anyway, the concept, MY concept of God doesn't conflict with any physical law and it certainly doesn't conflict with free will. You could almost say that they have the same non-physical source.


 

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966540 -

You seem to be limiting your concept of God to the one imposed by the monotheistic religions.

No, it's just easier to phrase my distaste for God(s) that way. :wink:

Here's a question:
Is software metaphysical? 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966556 -

No, and I know where you're going with this...
Software cannot run by itself.
Software cannot exist by itself.
Software cannot take spontaneous action.


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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966625 -

Wow.

Sclorch, you've been around here for a while. Was there ever a time when this forum was so philosophical?

This thread is great!

Here's another downside of being a Mod. I do not have time to answer threads like these. I have some pretty cogent proofs to offer in response to both you AND infidelGod's posts but I do not have time to post them. Which is really sad because it would clear up a few of the misunderstandings between the two points of view.

Oh well, back to Modding.

Cheers,

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966873 -

Here's a question:
Is software metaphysical?
No, and I know where you're going with this...
Software cannot run by itself.
Software cannot exist by itself.
Software cannot take spontaneous action.

Actually... I was only going to say that processes are NOT metaphysical.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #967437 -

i'd just like to throw something out: if its so impossible for humans to create ai with "human" rights, why were DNA molecules able to make some (they didn't even make some, they made them self-assemble) so easily?

edit:
ps. your thread title reminds me of an ace you fight at the end of wing commander 3. when you beat him he says: "You have bested me, NOOOOO(his yell is abruptly cut off by his ship exploding).


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If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.

Edited by krispyfi (10/16/02 09:38 PM)

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: krispyfi]
    #967926 -

why were DNA molecules able to make some (they didn't even make some, they made them self-assemble) so easily?

I wouldn't call a few billion years EASY.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #967942 -

"It comes down to choosing one of the two assertions:
true randomness exists OR it doesn't"

This really hits the nail on the head. It can't be proven either way, though I tend to side with the idea that random is simply a word for "beyond human comprehension." I'm betting down the line we may find that even pi will have a pattern...and if we don't that still doesn't mean it doesn't have one.

birds

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Birdseye]
    #967961 -

The great thing (not!) about determinism is that one can always say, "we don't have to prove it... we can't!... It's beyond human comprehension..."

It's not much better than Pascal's wager...
If you find a pattern... you win.  If you don't find a pattern... you win.

Fuck you. :smirk: 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #968024 -

We are straying a bit (although it is very interesting).....I made the argument that no matter how good the "acting" job is....it is still just acting. She says that regardless of whether it is acting or not, since we can't ever truely know if the thing is alive then we have no moral justification in offing it.

I said: I agree that if a real human and an A.I. human were side by side and I couldn't tell which one it is then it would be immoral to kill one, but only because you run the risk of getting the wrong one, not because it is wrong in itself to kill the A.I. human. If I could x-ray them to determine who the imposter was then I would have no hesitation in shutting it down.

Her next question was, what if the A.I. could react in such a way as to beg for it's life. Mimic pain and show signs of desiring self preservation.

I say it is none the less just acting. But since I could never prove it wasn't acting (no more than I can prove you aren't acting) I would need more information before I start killing things. But once the conclusive evidence was in "good bye Charlie"


(don't you love my run on sentences)


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #968158 -

That's an interesting moral dilemma.

You could take the approach that if you can't tell the difference, then there is no difference...

But clearly there IS a difference - one is real, one is not.
hhhhhmmmmmmmmm......

Her next question was, what if the A.I. could react in such a way as to beg for it's life. Mimic pain and show signs of desiring self preservation.

I say it is none the less just acting

I'm sure her [determistic] rebuttal would be "How do you know if human beings aren't just "programmed" to simulate self preservation?"

I'm afraid it's a philosophical stalemate at this point, you should just accuse her of being a robot - I'm sure she won't argue.  :grin:

 

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chodamunky]
    #968338 -

If you kill something that thinks it's alive
what does it mean it "thinks" it's alive?

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: raytrace]
    #969772 -

do you think you're alive?

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #969812 -

In reply to:
I wouldn't call a few billion years EASY.



a) we are intelligent. we can do it faster
b) other posts claimed that it was impossible, not merely difficult.


--------------------


If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #974945 -

Chemkid, have you ever seen the japanese anim? "Ghost In The Shell"?


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Remain in Light
Greez Ini

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Ini]
    #974953 -

That's a badass movie... but I take issue with some of it's philosophical premises.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #975722 -

I take issue with most premises, except my own of course.

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

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Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Ini]
    #976080 -

No....never seen it.....how does it relate? What are it's implications?


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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