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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Shrooms a random event?
    #633265 - 05/16/02 10:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch: however since it is a random event... there is no intentionality. Therefore, shrooms do not make you think

How can you be so sure that it's a random event? Is the universe even capable of producing a truly random event? How would you differentiate random thoughts from non-random thoughts?

I think whenever we see 'randomness' in the universe, we are merely running into the limitations of our perceptions. Clouds seem to be random at first glance. But every water particle in the cloud is interacting with the atmosphere and each other according to physical laws. It would be possible (not likely) to predict the seemingly random shape of a cloud. Some fractals seem like random images, but it's actually a simple elegant equation that has been repeated over and over. The final product looks random, but it's essence is order.

So I don't think shrooms give you random thoughts, maybe like clouds or fractals, it appears random and chaotic but there is a simple underlying truth to it all.

anyway, that's what I believe.






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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #633287 - 05/16/02 11:16 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch: however since it is a random event... there is no intentionality. Therefore, shrooms do not make you think

How can you be so sure that it's a random event?
Turbulence is random on a microscopic level. There is turbulence in our circulatory system and in the synaptic fluid. Psilo(cy)bin is a microscopic molecule. A microscopic molecule in a turbulent environment moves about randomly.

Is the universe even capable of producing a truly random event?
Three words: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

How would you differentiate random thoughts from non-random thoughts?
Good question... I don't know. But that does not mean that a random "thought" is impossible. I arrived at that based on the mechanics of the interaction between psiloc(cy)bin and our serotonin receptors (a random action potential here--> a random neural cascade there).


Believe what you will, randomness exists. Sure, not everything is random... but there will always be that streak of unpredictability in every event (and not just because we're not omniscient). Sure, there are patterns... but that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is a pattern. I liken the universe to the dirty fractal edge- it's not random, it's not determined (i.e. a fractal), it's a combination of both... a means between the extremes.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/05/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: Sclorch]
    #633305 - 05/16/02 11:30 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Turbulence is random on a microscopic level. There is turbulence in our circulatory system and in the synaptic fluid. Psilo(cy)bin is a microscopic molecule. A microscopic molecule in a turbulent environment moves about randomly.

um

Is it just me or does that prove nothing at all?

Just me. Thought so. Please explain.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #633312 - 05/16/02 11:36 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Ok then. According to your view, if I am having a million dark thoughts about suicide, then you would conclude I am doing a great deal of "thinking"?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: Sclorch]
    #633320 - 05/16/02 11:47 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

I think this refers to the behavior of quarks and other subatomic particles?
Their behavior APPEARS random and uncertain but that may be because we don't have the RESOLUTION in our instruments to probe deeper into the particles and see what THEY are made of. I'm sure there will always be something smaller than the smallest particle discovered and those will appear to behave randomly.

And besides, the coming Unified Field Theory will make the uncertainty principle obsolete.


I liken the universe to the dirty fractal edge- it's not random, it's not determined (i.e. a fractal), it's a combination of both... a means between the extremes.

That's a good description. the truth is somewhere in between.

When you look at a fractal, it's difficult to guess the equation that made it. But it's easy to make an apparently random fractal from a simple equation. The priciple of entropy ensures that it's a one way street - from simple mathematical constructs to complex, seemingly random universe.

I agree that randomness exists, but I think it exists on the surface, or at the perceptual level.

Maybe that's what it means to "break through" on shrooms. To see past the randomness to the simple underlying truth. I am sorry if you got to this state only to dismiss it as "random thoughts"




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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: Swami]
    #633332 - 05/17/02 12:01 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Ok then. According to your view, if I am having a million dark thoughts about suicide, then you would conclude I am doing a great deal of "thinking"?

Using the traditional definition of "thinking" (whatever that is..), I would say no you are not. But whatever thoughts are rushing through your head is from you. (you don't believe in channeling, do you?)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #633359 - 05/17/02 12:23 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

you don't believe in channeling, do you?

Hold on... Wait a minute - something is coming through. It is Michael the ArchAngel telling me not to believe in channeling.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledeep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: Sclorch]
    #633671 - 05/17/02 04:31 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

everything is based on cause and effect.. Randomness? Order? call it what ya want..


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Offlinejono
misc.
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #633742 - 05/17/02 06:29 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Its strange that you should mention "randomness". I was recently purusing over a book of chaos mathematical theory and quantum theory, and chaos mathematicians would argue that there is a lot less randomness in the world than we currently think.

Infidelgod said "I think whenever we see 'randomness' in the universe, we are merely running into the limitations of our perceptions."
Some of these chaos mathematicians argue similarly, although not that our perception is what limits us, but having the sufficient data to put into the equation. That is, extremely complex mathematical equations can be constructed to predict the behaviour of seemingly random events (this refutes the premise in Sclorch's arugment that Turbulence is random on a microscopic level. It may not even be random on an atomic level!!). The limitation isnt perception, but rather having the required information (charges, locations of particles, their velocities etc), to substitute into the equally complex equations. (Again this is similar to Infidelgods point). But we must remember that no matter how complex these things may seem, complexity does not rule out possibility.

Research into the areas of quantum computers may give us the power necessary to solve such equations (scary thought).

I found the whole area interestingly relevant to the philosophical argument of determinism, that is, every cause has an effect.



Cheers,
Jono


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shrooms a random event? [Re: jono]
    #634279 - 05/17/02 07:05 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Its strange that you should mention "randomness". I was recently purusing over a book of chaos mathematical theory and quantum theory, and chaos mathematicians would argue that there is a lot less randomness in the world than we currently think.

And what? I've read so much "chaos this" and "chaos that" and we all live in one giant, complex hat. Even the physicists come to points in their books where they say "well, you have to really get into number theory to understand..." or "it's beyond the scope of this book... E9 symmetry is too complex to explain in your puny earth tongue!!" Okay, so those last few words were mine. My point is, if they're trying to convince somebody... they should step back and simplify. String theory is just some scam started by Stephen Hawking so that he could outwit the laws of nature and walk again... (damn that was low)


Some of these chaos mathematicians argue similarly, although not that our perception is what limits us, but having the sufficient data to put into the equation.
There will never be a proof for determinism. It was determined to be the case.

That is, extremely complex mathematical equations can be constructed to predict the behaviour of seemingly random events (this refutes the premise in Sclorch's arugment that Turbulence is random on a microscopic level. It may not even be random on an atomic level!!).

It does not refute- this would still only be an assertion that everything is ordered.
I don't even have to try to fool you into thinking that something is random... you can fool yourself at home. Just get a hunk of radioactive material...


The limitation isnt perception, but rather having the required information (charges, locations of particles, their velocities etc), to substitute into the equally complex equations. (Again this is similar to Infidelgods point).

I think you need to reread HUP- it's too powerful to dispute... why do you think the string theorists can't escape their infinite regression into the small world? Now they're hooking up with astronomers... in hopes that the macro-guys can save their theory of everything.

Research into the areas of quantum computers may give us the power necessary to solve such equations (scary thought).

Never in an infinite number of years...

I found the whole area interestingly relevant to the philosophical argument of determinism, that is, every cause has an effect.

Yeah, so do alot of people. Certainty is so... SAFE.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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