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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966338 - 10/16/02 05:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Self serving beliefs? you mean like the belief in randomness?

I can't prove God exists.

Can you devise an experiment to prove that randomness exists?


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966360 - 10/16/02 05:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


The reason randomness is needed: adaptability only works in a random environment. Adaptability is a necessary attribute of intelligence.

Agreed!  Evolution must occur by naturally selecting random changes... without a good source of randomness I dont see any other way about it.  The AI brain will likely be a type of internally-evolving network, adapting to new, unpredictable  information.


Also, I don't think "artificial" intelligence is possible... if it's artificial, it's only mimicking- I contend that it is impossible to create such an "intelligence" (think Bladerunner). "Man-made" intelligence would be a better moniker.

dont be so picky!  we dont have AI yet, so it doesnt really mean anything.  :smile:


I'm glad you see it this way. This is part of the problem I had with my Philosophy of Mind professor. He wouldn't step away from determinism... he was a bit obsessed with the idea of SuperParry.

Determinism is dying of boredom.  :grin:


How much of an effect should this randomness have on the computer? How should the software interact with it?

The standard practice is to wait until the software asks for a random number.

ex: myNumber = RandomNumberBetween(1, 4)

 


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man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966404 - 10/16/02 05:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Self serving beliefs? you mean like the belief in randomness?
I can't prove God exists.


I have no use for believing that things I experience are illusory. I experience free will (as do you), therefore it is real (until proven otherwise). The problem comes in when metaphysical beliefs begin to butt heads with our experiences. If you like free will, but believe in an all-powerful God that knows the future... then you're going to have some problems. You have to come up with a new theory to "unify" these different forces.

I offered you a solution to the free will issue... that's all.
Can I prove that free will exists? No.
Can I prove that you exist? No.
Do I experience both? Yes.
Can I justify my belief in both based on my experience alone? I think so.

God hasn't presented any hard evidence for me to believe in him/her/whatever, therefore I do not believe in God. Besides, even if there was a God, it wouldn't change a damn thing in my life- I refuse to take the role of a rat in a cage (I guess I have more rage than Billy Corgan).

Can you devise an experiment to prove that randomness exists?

I experience randomness... that's good enough for me. Computer's have yet to be able to predict anything perfectly... more proof for me (and determinists SHOULD have the burden of proof on this one).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966459 - 10/16/02 06:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The problem comes in when metaphysical beliefs begin to butt heads with our experiences

Ah, but I think that free will is a metaphysical belief AND it's something that I experience. Didn't you say that it isn't based on the physical plane? So isn't it beyond physical - metaphysical? "Spiritual" even?  or maybe you want to avoid the connotations of that word...
Suffice it to say that free will is unexplainable.


As for God, I don't "experience" God the way I experience free will. It's a vague concept for me, I do sometimes doubt his existence, and I definitely don't think of him as some all powerful deity that concerns himself with human affairs. You seem to be limiting your concept of God to the one imposed by the monotheistic religions. Theology has progressed quite a bit since then (although most theologans would consider my concept of God to be heresy but fuck them  :smile:).

When I say "God" I'm using that word for lack of a better word.... you know what I'm talking about - The Undefinable...

Anyway, the concept, MY concept of God doesn't conflict with any physical law and it certainly doesn't conflict with free will. You could almost say that they have the same non-physical source.


 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966540 - 10/16/02 06:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You seem to be limiting your concept of God to the one imposed by the monotheistic religions.

No, it's just easier to phrase my distaste for God(s) that way. :wink:

Here's a question:
Is software metaphysical? 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966556 - 10/16/02 06:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No, and I know where you're going with this...
Software cannot run by itself.
Software cannot exist by itself.
Software cannot take spontaneous action.



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Anonymous

Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #966625 - 10/16/02 07:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow.

Sclorch, you've been around here for a while. Was there ever a time when this forum was so philosophical?

This thread is great!

Here's another downside of being a Mod. I do not have time to answer threads like these. I have some pretty cogent proofs to offer in response to both you AND infidelGod's posts but I do not have time to post them. Which is really sad because it would clear up a few of the misunderstandings between the two points of view.

Oh well, back to Modding.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966873 - 10/16/02 08:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Here's a question:
Is software metaphysical?

No, and I know where you're going with this...
Software cannot run by itself.
Software cannot exist by itself.
Software cannot take spontaneous action.


Actually... I was only going to say that processes are NOT metaphysical.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinekrispyfi
lumber tyrant
Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 320
Loc: se usa
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #967437 - 10/16/02 11:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i'd just like to throw something out: if its so impossible for humans to create ai with "human" rights, why were DNA molecules able to make some (they didn't even make some, they made them self-assemble) so easily?

edit:
ps. your thread title reminds me of an ace you fight at the end of wing commander 3. when you beat him he says: "You have bested me, NOOOOO(his yell is abruptly cut off by his ship exploding).


--------------------


If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


Edited by krispyfi (10/16/02 11:38 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: krispyfi]
    #967926 - 10/17/02 03:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

why were DNA molecules able to make some (they didn't even make some, they made them self-assemble) so easily?

I wouldn't call a few billion years EASY.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 204
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #967942 - 10/17/02 03:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"It comes down to choosing one of the two assertions:
true randomness exists OR it doesn't"

This really hits the nail on the head. It can't be proven either way, though I tend to side with the idea that random is simply a word for "beyond human comprehension." I'm betting down the line we may find that even pi will have a pattern...and if we don't that still doesn't mean it doesn't have one.

birds


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Birdseye]
    #967961 - 10/17/02 03:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The great thing (not!) about determinism is that one can always say, "we don't have to prove it... we can't!... It's beyond human comprehension..."

It's not much better than Pascal's wager...
If you find a pattern... you win.  If you don't find a pattern... you win.

Fuck you. :smirk: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #968024 - 10/17/02 03:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

We are straying a bit (although it is very interesting).....I made the argument that no matter how good the "acting" job is....it is still just acting. She says that regardless of whether it is acting or not, since we can't ever truely know if the thing is alive then we have no moral justification in offing it.

I said: I agree that if a real human and an A.I. human were side by side and I couldn't tell which one it is then it would be immoral to kill one, but only because you run the risk of getting the wrong one, not because it is wrong in itself to kill the A.I. human. If I could x-ray them to determine who the imposter was then I would have no hesitation in shutting it down.

Her next question was, what if the A.I. could react in such a way as to beg for it's life. Mimic pain and show signs of desiring self preservation.

I say it is none the less just acting. But since I could never prove it wasn't acting (no more than I can prove you aren't acting) I would need more information before I start killing things. But once the conclusive evidence was in "good bye Charlie"


(don't you love my run on sentences)


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #968158 - 10/17/02 05:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That's an interesting moral dilemma.

You could take the approach that if you can't tell the difference, then there is no difference...

But clearly there IS a difference - one is real, one is not.
hhhhhmmmmmmmmm......

Her next question was, what if the A.I. could react in such a way as to beg for it's life. Mimic pain and show signs of desiring self preservation.

I say it is none the less just acting


I'm sure her [determistic] rebuttal would be "How do you know if human beings aren't just "programmed" to simulate self preservation?"

I'm afraid it's a philosophical stalemate at this point, you should just accuse her of being a robot - I'm sure she won't argue.  :grin:

 


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chodamunky]
    #968338 - 10/17/02 09:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If you kill something that thinks it's alive
what does it mean it "thinks" it's alive?


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: raytrace]
    #969772 - 10/17/02 06:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

do you think you're alive?


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Offlinekrispyfi
lumber tyrant
Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 320
Loc: se usa
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #969812 - 10/17/02 06:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I wouldn't call a few billion years EASY.




a) we are intelligent. we can do it faster
b) other posts claimed that it was impossible, not merely difficult.


--------------------


If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


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OfflineIni
daughter of theyew- tree

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 102
Loc: Switzerland
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: chemkid]
    #974945 - 10/19/02 04:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Chemkid, have you ever seen the japanese anim? "Ghost In The Shell"?


--------------------
Remain in Light
Greez Ini


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Ini]
    #974953 - 10/19/02 04:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That's a badass movie... but I take issue with some of it's philosophical premises.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Help.....I've been bested!!! [Re: Sclorch]
    #975722 - 10/20/02 12:13 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I take issue with most premises, except my own of course.

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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