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Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas
    #9568162 -

Don't know if many are aware of that fact, and I haven't been reading threads here, but it generally seems that people are uninformed of this.

During the cease-fire, Hamas said it would arrest any Gazans who did not adhere to the cease-fire, and they even followed up on their word. The rocket launching from Hamas resumed after an agreement-breaking Israeli raid into Gaza, in November, which killed 6 people.


Gaza conflict timeline

* 2008 Nov: Israel breaks ceasefire by sending ground troops into Gaza. Rocket fire resumes sparking exchanges.


CNN surprisingly made the same point




United Nations Relief and Works commissions general explains this to a reporter



Edited by Disco Cat (01/08/09 01:07 AM)

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Disco Cat]
    #9568222 -

yes you are Correct:nothingtoadd:


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I only grow edibles.Any info I give ONLY applies to gourmet mushrooms.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Disco Cat]
    #9568972 -

Golly, you are so special... here, have a gold star.

:rolleyes:

(Anybody that thinks Hamas broke the cease fire first, or that Israel broke the cease fire first, is an idiot.  If you can figure out why neither broke the cease fire first, then I take back my lame opinion.)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9569044 -

pshhh facts don't matter when it comes to uneducated religious  redneck Americans.

KILL THE MUSLIM BASTARDS!!! YEEHAW

im noticing a real anti Muslim sentiment emanating from America.  most people don't even do their homework before they open their mouths.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (01/08/09 05:14 AM)

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Shins]
    #9569103 -

> most people don't even do their homework before they open their mouths.

June 17, 2008 - Cease fire "goes into effect"
June 18, 2008 - 40 rockets/mortars launched from Gaza into Israel
June 23, 2008 - 1 mortar fired from Gaza into Israel
June 24, 2008 - 4 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel
June 26, 2008 - 1 rocket fired from Gaza into Israel.  Hamas declares Israel in violation of peace agreement for keeping borders closed.  Israel says will open borders when attacks from Gaza stop. (There have been 45 attacks from Gaza since the start of the cease fire just nine days prior.)
June 27, 2008 - 2 rockets fired from Gaza into Israel
June 28, 2008 - Unknown number of mortars fired from Gaza into Israel.  Israel halts fuel shipments to Gaza.
June 29, 2008 - Israel reopens crossings into Gaza
June 30, 2008 - 1 rocket fired from Gaza into Israel.  Israel closes crossings in response.

... etc ...

September was pretty quiet
October was very quiet

... and then ...

The week of October 29 to Nov 6, 69 rockets and mortars are fired from Gaza into Israel.  Following the rocket/mortar fire, Israel destroys a 250 meter long tunnel leading from Gaza into Israel, killing six members of Hamas in the process.  Hamas responds with 52 rockets and 9 mortars being fired into Israel over the next week.

From this point on, rocket and mortar attacks escalate.  Israel invades Gaza and the morons come out of the woodwork claiming that one side or the other violated the cease fire first or that one side or the other is morally justified in what they are doing or that what is going on today is somehow different than what has been going on for the last few thousand years.

Published June 25: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/25/africa/25mideast.php ; (about the violence that has occurred since the cease fire agreement a week prior...)

> * 2008 Nov: Israel breaks ceasefire by sending ground troops into Gaza. Rocket fire resumes sparking exchanges.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5089940.ece:
Quote:
A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006.

Hamas responded by firing more than 30 of its unguided Qassam rockets into southern Israel, causing no damage or injuries but reviving fears of the cross-border war of attrition that left scores of people dead – most of them Palestinians – before an Egyptian-mediated truce came into force in June.

Yesterday’s fighting began when Israeli troops entered the central region of the Gaza Strip, which has been sealed off from the outside world since Hamas seized control 18 months ago. The unit attacked a house that was believed to be the starting point of the tunnel.


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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9569413 -

so wait... it's a cease fire with military occupation and alledged
open borders yet the borders were still closed and IDF troops were
all over gaza... I can understand the rockets because the israelis
have shown nothing will change on their end either

like everyone else has said "you come into my home and threaten my
life I'll do what ever it takes to eliminate you as a threat", the
IDF is definitely in the homes of palestinians who are on house arrest


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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9569443 -

Quote:
I can understand the rockets


You can understand firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas?

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9569465 -

Redstorm said:
Quote:
I can understand the rockets


You can understand firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas?


does the IDF have troops in civilian areas in gaza?


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9569580 -

Perhaps they do now since they have invaded.

What does that have to do with you understanding why Hamas would fire rockets indiscriminately at Israel?

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9569611 -

perhaps they've been there all along, seems that when IDF troops are assaulting a home they suspect of housing militants and they try to kidnap the soldier and drag him into the tunnels under this gaza home, it would seem to me that there is a presence of IDF troops in gaza... I mean seriously, what was the lead in to all the events from hamas that seuss posted

the IDF doesnt pull out of gaza

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Background
Quote:
On 19 June 2008, a six-month Egyptian-brokered cease-fire agreement went into effect between Hamas and Israel.[38] On June 24, 2008 Israel raided Nablus (West Bank) killing two Palestinians, including a commander of Islamic Jihad (an organisation independent of Hamas).[83] Later, on the same day, three Qassam rockets were fired into Sderot, Israel, causing two minor injuries. Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility, stating that this action was in response to the Israeli raid. [84] Hamas subsequently pressured the group into abiding by the ceasefire.[85]

On 26 June, Hamas warned Israel that its closure of the Gaza border was seen as a major cease-fire violation. Nonetheless, Hamas called on other Palestinian factions to abide by the truce, and a rocket attack on Israel by Fatah was condemned by Hamas. Rocket and mortar attacks continued at a rate of several rockets per month, often with no one taking responsibility.[86]




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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9569679 -

I'm not justifying Israel's behavior. I'm just wondering how you can understand attacks on civilians by either party.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9570438 -

because it seems the israelis have no issues with killing
civilians and they get away with it by saying 'hamas
terrorists', the civilians are the innocents but they are made
the targets by both side... tit for tat

http://www.pcdc.edu.ps/13yo_gilr_shot_to_school.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/802990.html
http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1279
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/04/mideast/index.html





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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9570545 -

> tit for tat

As has been going on for thousands of years... and people think that peace can be had, or that one side is to blame, or that one side is justified because of the actions of the other side.  :rolleyes:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9570678 -

I know and I believe peace can be had through a radical
extermination programs of these vermin we call humans


seriously, when this sort of behavior is sanction by the 'holy
texts', what encouragement is there for either side to change


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9571666 -

If it's tit for tat, why do you understand why Hamas shoots rockets hitting civilians but not when Israel does it. You are not consistent. Either accept both of their nonsense or condemn it; there's no room for discriminate sympathy.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9572021 -

where did I say I didnt understand the genocide of the palestinians
as well, I never said palestinians killing jews is good and jews
killing palestinians is bad, I'm just not going to sit around and
be another stroker of israels cock like so many others do, I see
both sides but I'd like to toss in that balance and show that
israel isnt just acting in self defense


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9572521 -

> and show that israel isnt just acting in self defense

There is a lot of hatred and mistrust on both sides.  However, please think about this honestly before answering...

If there could be peace, would Israel accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors?  I honestly believe the answer to be mostly yes.  If there could be peace, would Palestinians accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors.  I honestly believe the answer to be mostly yes.  However, there are a few Jewish people, and a few plus a few more Palestinians that would answer no... that would give their life to see that their goals are met rather before giving in to the compromise of peace.  It is these few on both sides that are responsible for the suffering of the many, on both sides.  It isn't as simple as Israel acting in self defense, or Palestinians wanting their property back... and pretending that it so simple belittles the innocent that have died in the conflict.  Both sides are at fault.  Pretending that one side is some how justified is silly.  There is no justification when it comes to civilian deaths.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9572893 -

Seuss said:
> and show that israel isnt just acting in self defense

There is a lot of hatred and mistrust on both sides.  However, please think about this honestly before answering...

If there could be peace, would Israel accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors?  I honestly believe the answer to be mostly yes.  If there could be peace, would Palestinians accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors.



we cant possibly know because neither is willing to give an inch
until the other does, Hamas has offered concessions and israel
says that hamas wont honor it and the same with israel, hamas
says israel wont honor anything, as of yet I've not seen where
either side has allowed the other the chance to honor their word


Quote:
It is these few on both sides that are responsible for the suffering of the many, on both sides.  It isn't as simple as Israel acting in self defense, or Palestinians wanting their property back...


lets not forget that the palestinians also act in self defense,
how would you react to a police station being built at your
front door, people telling you that you cannot leave your house and when you make the attempt they start shooting or beating you

I know I wouldnt do well under oppression just as I wouldnt do
well under the threat of fire, unlike either the IDF or hamas,
I'd have no problem with destroying thousands of homes, just
need the means, the will would have already been thrust on me


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9572984 -

> Hamas has offered ...

Hamas is not the Palestinian People.

> how would you react to a police station being built at your front door

In college, I lived next door to the police station.  Literally, it was across the street (on the diagonal).  No big deal...

I see where you are going, but as I said, hate and mistrust are strong on both sides.  Were peace possible, giving in to whatever demands were needed from both sides, I believe that most of the population would accept it.  The few that will not accept peace, on both sides, are the ones responsible for the suffering of the many.  I cannot believe that you continue to forgive one side's atrocities as justified by the actions of the other.  They are both justified, and they are both damned, the People held hostage by the actions and motives of the few.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9573291 -

I expected this thread to be full of anti Islamic sentiment, but I'm glad to see that not everyone is agreeing with Israel's attacks; wish I could say the same about my peers at college, but the popular notion seems to be "Palestinians are terrorists". What I still find hard to comprehend is how Israel can consider the actions of Hamas to be representative of the entire Palestinian population. And if they do acknowledge that Hamas is not synonymous with Palestine, how have they managed to justify their actions towards Gaza?


Another glaring difference between the two different groups fighting each other is that Hamas' attacks have proved themselves mostly ineffective- from the last count I remember, it was 0 Israelis dead, and over 300 Palestinians dead. And I find it impossible that all or even a majority of those 300 were true Hamas militants. After watching Kevin Sites' coverage on the Lebanon conflict, it seems pretty obvious that Israel has supremacist notions in regards to the value of their lives against those of Muslims.

I have no clue what Israel hopes to achieve with this, I cannot see a solution by repeatedly attacking and killing civilians, I don't think this is going to cause anything but more resentment towards the only Jewish state in the region.

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