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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas
    #9568162 - 01/07/09 10:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Don't know if many are aware of that fact, and I haven't been reading threads here, but it generally seems that people are uninformed of this.

During the cease-fire, Hamas said it would arrest any Gazans who did not adhere to the cease-fire, and they even followed up on their word. The rocket launching from Hamas resumed after an agreement-breaking Israeli raid into Gaza, in November, which killed 6 people.


Gaza conflict timeline

* 2008 Nov: Israel breaks ceasefire by sending ground troops into Gaza. Rocket fire resumes sparking exchanges.


CNN surprisingly made the same point




United Nations Relief and Works commissions general explains this to a reporter



Edited by Disco Cat (01/07/09 11:07 PM)

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Invisiblenw_shroomy
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Disco Cat]
    #9568222 - 01/07/09 11:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yes you are Correct:nothingtoadd:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Disco Cat]
    #9568972 - 01/08/09 02:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Golly, you are so special... here, have a gold star.

:rolleyes:

(Anybody that thinks Hamas broke the cease fire first, or that Israel broke the cease fire first, is an idiot.  If you can figure out why neither broke the cease fire first, then I take back my lame opinion.)


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9569044 - 01/08/09 03:12 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

pshhh facts don't matter when it comes to uneducated religious  redneck Americans.

KILL THE MUSLIM BASTARDS!!! YEEHAW

im noticing a real anti Muslim sentiment emanating from America.  most people don't even do their homework before they open their mouths.


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Edited by Shins (01/08/09 03:14 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Shins]
    #9569103 - 01/08/09 03:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> most people don't even do their homework before they open their mouths.

June 17, 2008 - Cease fire "goes into effect"
June 18, 2008 - 40 rockets/mortars launched from Gaza into Israel
June 23, 2008 - 1 mortar fired from Gaza into Israel
June 24, 2008 - 4 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel
June 26, 2008 - 1 rocket fired from Gaza into Israel.  Hamas declares Israel in violation of peace agreement for keeping borders closed.  Israel says will open borders when attacks from Gaza stop. (There have been 45 attacks from Gaza since the start of the cease fire just nine days prior.)
June 27, 2008 - 2 rockets fired from Gaza into Israel
June 28, 2008 - Unknown number of mortars fired from Gaza into Israel.  Israel halts fuel shipments to Gaza.
June 29, 2008 - Israel reopens crossings into Gaza
June 30, 2008 - 1 rocket fired from Gaza into Israel.  Israel closes crossings in response.

... etc ...

September was pretty quiet
October was very quiet

... and then ...

The week of October 29 to Nov 6, 69 rockets and mortars are fired from Gaza into Israel.  Following the rocket/mortar fire, Israel destroys a 250 meter long tunnel leading from Gaza into Israel, killing six members of Hamas in the process.  Hamas responds with 52 rockets and 9 mortars being fired into Israel over the next week.

From this point on, rocket and mortar attacks escalate.  Israel invades Gaza and the morons come out of the woodwork claiming that one side or the other violated the cease fire first or that one side or the other is morally justified in what they are doing or that what is going on today is somehow different than what has been going on for the last few thousand years.

Published June 25: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/25/africa/25mideast.php ; (about the violence that has occurred since the cease fire agreement a week prior...)

> * 2008 Nov: Israel breaks ceasefire by sending ground troops into Gaza. Rocket fire resumes sparking exchanges.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5089940.ece:
Quote:

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006.

Hamas responded by firing more than 30 of its unguided Qassam rockets into southern Israel, causing no damage or injuries but reviving fears of the cross-border war of attrition that left scores of people dead – most of them Palestinians – before an Egyptian-mediated truce came into force in June.

Yesterday’s fighting began when Israeli troops entered the central region of the Gaza Strip, which has been sealed off from the outside world since Hamas seized control 18 months ago. The unit attacked a house that was believed to be the starting point of the tunnel.



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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9569413 - 01/08/09 07:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

so wait... it's a cease fire with military occupation and alledged
open borders yet the borders were still closed and IDF troops were
all over gaza... I can understand the rockets because the israelis
have shown nothing will change on their end either

like everyone else has said "you come into my home and threaten my
life I'll do what ever it takes to eliminate you as a threat", the
IDF is definitely in the homes of palestinians who are on house arrest

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9569443 - 01/08/09 07:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I can understand the rockets




You can understand firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas?

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9569465 - 01/08/09 07:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

I can understand the rockets




You can understand firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas?




does the IDF have troops in civilian areas in gaza?

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9569580 - 01/08/09 08:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps they do now since they have invaded.

What does that have to do with you understanding why Hamas would fire rockets indiscriminately at Israel?

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9569611 - 01/08/09 08:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

perhaps they've been there all along, seems that when IDF troops are assaulting a home they suspect of housing militants and they try to kidnap the soldier and drag him into the tunnels under this gaza home, it would seem to me that there is a presence of IDF troops in gaza... I mean seriously, what was the lead in to all the events from hamas that seuss posted

the IDF doesnt pull out of gaza

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Background
Quote:

On 19 June 2008, a six-month Egyptian-brokered cease-fire agreement went into effect between Hamas and Israel.[38] On June 24, 2008 Israel raided Nablus (West Bank) killing two Palestinians, including a commander of Islamic Jihad (an organisation independent of Hamas).[83] Later, on the same day, three Qassam rockets were fired into Sderot, Israel, causing two minor injuries. Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility, stating that this action was in response to the Israeli raid. [84] Hamas subsequently pressured the group into abiding by the ceasefire.[85]

On 26 June, Hamas warned Israel that its closure of the Gaza border was seen as a major cease-fire violation. Nonetheless, Hamas called on other Palestinian factions to abide by the truce, and a rocket attack on Israel by Fatah was condemned by Hamas. Rocket and mortar attacks continued at a rate of several rockets per month, often with no one taking responsibility.[86]




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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9569679 - 01/08/09 08:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not justifying Israel's behavior. I'm just wondering how you can understand attacks on civilians by either party.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9570438 - 01/08/09 11:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

because it seems the israelis have no issues with killing
civilians and they get away with it by saying 'hamas
terrorists', the civilians are the innocents but they are made
the targets by both side... tit for tat

http://www.pcdc.edu.ps/13yo_gilr_shot_to_school.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/802990.html
http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1279
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/04/mideast/index.html




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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9570545 - 01/08/09 12:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> tit for tat

As has been going on for thousands of years... and people think that peace can be had, or that one side is to blame, or that one side is justified because of the actions of the other side.  :rolleyes:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9570678 - 01/08/09 12:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I know and I believe peace can be had through a radical
extermination programs of these vermin we call humans


seriously, when this sort of behavior is sanction by the 'holy
texts', what encouragement is there for either side to change

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9571666 - 01/08/09 03:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If it's tit for tat, why do you understand why Hamas shoots rockets hitting civilians but not when Israel does it. You are not consistent. Either accept both of their nonsense or condemn it; there's no room for discriminate sympathy.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Redstorm]
    #9572021 - 01/08/09 04:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

where did I say I didnt understand the genocide of the palestinians
as well, I never said palestinians killing jews is good and jews
killing palestinians is bad, I'm just not going to sit around and
be another stroker of israels cock like so many others do, I see
both sides but I'd like to toss in that balance and show that
israel isnt just acting in self defense

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9572521 - 01/08/09 06:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> and show that israel isnt just acting in self defense

There is a lot of hatred and mistrust on both sides.  However, please think about this honestly before answering...

If there could be peace, would Israel accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors?  I honestly believe the answer to be mostly yes.  If there could be peace, would Palestinians accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors.  I honestly believe the answer to be mostly yes.  However, there are a few Jewish people, and a few plus a few more Palestinians that would answer no... that would give their life to see that their goals are met rather before giving in to the compromise of peace.  It is these few on both sides that are responsible for the suffering of the many, on both sides.  It isn't as simple as Israel acting in self defense, or Palestinians wanting their property back... and pretending that it so simple belittles the innocent that have died in the conflict.  Both sides are at fault.  Pretending that one side is some how justified is silly.  There is no justification when it comes to civilian deaths.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9572893 - 01/08/09 07:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> and show that israel isnt just acting in self defense

There is a lot of hatred and mistrust on both sides.  However, please think about this honestly before answering...

If there could be peace, would Israel accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors?  I honestly believe the answer to be mostly yes.  If there could be peace, would Palestinians accept it and live in harmony with their neighbors.





we cant possibly know because neither is willing to give an inch
until the other does, Hamas has offered concessions and israel
says that hamas wont honor it and the same with israel, hamas
says israel wont honor anything, as of yet I've not seen where
either side has allowed the other the chance to honor their word


Quote:

It is these few on both sides that are responsible for the suffering of the many, on both sides.  It isn't as simple as Israel acting in self defense, or Palestinians wanting their property back...




lets not forget that the palestinians also act in self defense,
how would you react to a police station being built at your
front door, people telling you that you cannot leave your house and when you make the attempt they start shooting or beating you

I know I wouldnt do well under oppression just as I wouldnt do
well under the threat of fire, unlike either the IDF or hamas,
I'd have no problem with destroying thousands of homes, just
need the means, the will would have already been thrust on me

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9572984 - 01/08/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Hamas has offered ...

Hamas is not the Palestinian People.

> how would you react to a police station being built at your front door

In college, I lived next door to the police station.  Literally, it was across the street (on the diagonal).  No big deal...

I see where you are going, but as I said, hate and mistrust are strong on both sides.  Were peace possible, giving in to whatever demands were needed from both sides, I believe that most of the population would accept it.  The few that will not accept peace, on both sides, are the ones responsible for the suffering of the many.  I cannot believe that you continue to forgive one side's atrocities as justified by the actions of the other.  They are both justified, and they are both damned, the People held hostage by the actions and motives of the few.


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OfflineTempus950
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9573291 - 01/08/09 08:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I expected this thread to be full of anti Islamic sentiment, but I'm glad to see that not everyone is agreeing with Israel's attacks; wish I could say the same about my peers at college, but the popular notion seems to be "Palestinians are terrorists". What I still find hard to comprehend is how Israel can consider the actions of Hamas to be representative of the entire Palestinian population. And if they do acknowledge that Hamas is not synonymous with Palestine, how have they managed to justify their actions towards Gaza?


Another glaring difference between the two different groups fighting each other is that Hamas' attacks have proved themselves mostly ineffective- from the last count I remember, it was 0 Israelis dead, and over 300 Palestinians dead. And I find it impossible that all or even a majority of those 300 were true Hamas militants. After watching Kevin Sites' coverage on the Lebanon conflict, it seems pretty obvious that Israel has supremacist notions in regards to the value of their lives against those of Muslims.

I have no clue what Israel hopes to achieve with this, I cannot see a solution by repeatedly attacking and killing civilians, I don't think this is going to cause anything but more resentment towards the only Jewish state in the region.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Tempus950]
    #9573310 - 01/08/09 08:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Who cares who started it?  As long as I don't run out of popcorn, I'm good.


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Invisiblenw_shroomy
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: TGRR]
    #9573573 - 01/08/09 08:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Who cares who started it?  As long as I don't run out of popcorn, I'm good.



:rofl2::rofl2:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9573706 - 01/08/09 09:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Hamas has offered ...

Hamas is not the Palestinian People.




the president and the congress is not the american people and
the american people dont have the power to enter into treaties
think maybe it works the same way with other governing bodies
like hamas and the president/prime minister of israel?

Quote:

I cannot believe that you continue to forgive one side's atrocities as justified by the actions of the other.  They are both justified, and they are both damned, the People held hostage by the actions and motives of the few.





where have I forgiven them, just because I'm not continually
tossing the condemnation on palestine doesnt mean I've excused
their actions, lets look at all these israeli supporters, the
israelis themselves, are they critisizing israel or forgiving
themselves for their actions or in many cases inactions
both are to blame, I'm simply telling about the other side of
the story that none of us really know a damned thing about

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Tempus950]
    #9573726 - 01/08/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tempus950 said:
I expected this thread to be full of anti Islamic sentiment




why? why is it if I say something against israel am I an
anti-semitic, why does it have to be anti-islamic if it's
against the palestinians?

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9573986 - 01/08/09 09:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

because that's how uneducated people think.  they throw general blanket statements without knowing the facts.


it reminds me of that scene from the movie "monty python ssearch for the holy grail"  where they are accusing the witch

this one;

replace "witch" with "jew hater"

<<embed src="
type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>


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Edited by Shins (01/09/09 03:12 AM)

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Invisiblepinkfloydms
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Shins]
    #9574773 - 01/08/09 11:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I hate all radicals evenly, be it jewish, christian, muslim, republican, or democrat. The only thing being so blindly led by something or someone shows is ignorance.


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Invisiblenw_shroomy
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #9574827 - 01/08/09 11:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I hate all radicals evenly



The ppl that we consider Radical,are the ones that consider us Radical?Whos right?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #9574832 - 01/08/09 11:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

well damn... I've always considered myself a radical :frown:

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OfflineTempus950
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9574878 - 01/09/09 12:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Tempus950 said:
I expected this thread to be full of anti Islamic sentiment




why? why is it if I say something against israel am I an
anti-semitic, why does it have to be anti-islamic if it's
against the palestinians?




That statement was not directed at you personally. Its just that the most common views I seem to encounter (at least here in California) are almost always pro Israel. I should have probably said: I expected this thread to be full of pro- Israeli sentiment, or anti Palestinian sentiment. And I can understand where both sides are coming from, and I can't figure out who's right, but I do know that Israel's actions now and in the near past are something  I have issues with.

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9575378 - 01/09/09 02:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Golly, you are so special... here, have a gold star.

:rolleyes:

(Anybody that thinks Hamas broke the cease fire first, or that Israel broke the cease fire first, is an idiot.  If you can figure out why neither broke the cease fire first, then I take back my lame opinion.)




Did somebody just come home from being bullied in school? Looks like it. Though you apparently have some high and mighty disease atm, nobody will actually care whether you take your lame opinion back or not.

As Shins stated, "most people don't even do their homework before they open their mouths." Seuss, unfortunately, you are now serving as an example of this elementary adage (well, it might as well be an adage).


Example:
Quote:


Seuss said:

June 17, 2008 - Cease fire "goes into effect"
June 18, 2008 - 40 rockets/mortars launched from Gaza into Israel
June 23, 2008 - 1 mortar fired from Gaza into Israel
June 24, 2008 - 4 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel
June 26, 2008 - 1 rocket fired from Gaza into Israel.  Hamas declares Israel in violation of peace agreement for keeping borders closed.  Israel says will open borders when attacks from Gaza stop. (There have been 45 attacks from Gaza since the start of the cease fire just nine days prior.)
June 27, 2008 - 2 rockets fired from Gaza into Israel
June 28, 2008 - Unknown number of mortars fired from Gaza into Israel.  Israel halts fuel shipments to Gaza.
June 29, 2008 - Israel reopens crossings into Gaza
June 30, 2008 - 1 rocket fired from Gaza into Israel.  Israel closes crossings in response.

... etc ...





So, to you, clearly it was Hamas who was firing those rockets into Israel, despite the fact that they were actively arresting those they found as responsible for the rockets fired in that timeline?

Here's a lesson for you:





People who haphazardly call others idiots while not knowing the details themselves are idiots - my not so lame opinion. If you can figure out why you were wrong, that still holds true.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Disco Cat]
    #9575481 - 01/09/09 03:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> So, to you, clearly it was Hamas who was firing those rockets into Israel

So Hamas is all Palestinians when it it is convenient,  but not when it isn't?  You guys need to make up your minds.

The rockets and mortars came from Hamas controlled territory, so in answer to your question, yes.  Had the rockets and mortars come from the west bank rather than the gaza strip, then my answer would be no.

> Here's a lesson for you:

What, an un-sourced graphic?  What is my lesson?  That un-sourced graphics are often incorrect?  The numbers you provide in the graph are wrong.  Go back and read the various middle eastern newspapers from June 2008 if you need proof.  Several of them detail the daily attacks by both sides.

> People who haphazardly call others idiots while not knowing the details themselves are idiots

I called others that have a specific belief (that one side, or the other, is the sole party at fault) idiots for having such a narrow understanding.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9575508 - 01/09/09 03:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> So, to you, clearly it was Hamas who was firing those rockets into Israel

So Hamas is all Palestinians when it it is convenient,  but not when it isn't?  You guys need to make up your minds.

The rockets and mortars came from Hamas controlled territory, so in answer to your question, yes.  Had the rockets and mortars come from the west bank rather than the gaza strip, then my answer would be no.




The "you guys" doesn't immediately seem applicable to me here, and I think the honest answer is that there is no visible basis to imply that the few rockets fired in the cease-fire duration are examples of Hamas breaking the cease-fire, whereas Hamas publicly condemned the rocket attacks and made arrests when it was known who was responsible.

Quote:


> Here's a lesson for you:

What, an un-sourced graphic?  What is my lesson?  That un-sourced graphics are often incorrect?  The numbers you provide in the graph are wrong.  Go back and read the various middle eastern newspapers from June 2008 if you need proof.  Several of them detail the daily attacks by both sides.




The source is Israel's Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center.

http://www.intelligence.org.il/

Specific report:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf



Quote:

Seuss said:
> People who haphazardly call others idiots while not knowing the details themselves are idiots

I called others that have a specific belief (that one side, or the other, is the sole party at fault) idiots for having such a narrow understanding.




It's not a topic on who's responsible for Israel/Gaza tensions, but on who broke the cease-fire, and is a meant-to-inform response to my reading of a couple articles that flatly stated, assumingly, that Hamas broke the cease-fire with fresh rocket launches, the implications of official statements from Canadian and US governments, and various posts on forums where people state they support Israel because Hamas has ignored the cease-fire and continued to launch rockets despite Israel's warnings. False and misguided opinions. All evidence suggests that Hamas did everything they could to restrain the firing of rockets from Gaza during the cease-fire up until Israel unquestionably broke it with their November raid. The answer doesn't appear to be gray at all and the topic isn't about choosing a team to root for. It's about getting a heretofore obstructed fact out in the open.

Edited by Disco Cat (01/09/09 04:12 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Disco Cat]
    #9575559 - 01/09/09 04:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> All evidence suggests that Hamas did everything they could to restrain the firing of rockets from Gaza during the cease-fire up until Israel unquestionably broke it with their November raid.

Through two months (September and October)... meanwhile, they started digging tunnels into Israel instead.

> The source is Israel's Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center.

Odd.  I would have expected their numbers to be inflated rather than deflated. 

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3557594,00.html
Quote:

Still, despite Wednesday's [18-Jun] formal announcements by Jerusalem, Gaza and Cairo saying that the ceasefire agreement will take effect on Thursday [19-Jun] morning, Israel's western Negev area suffered multiple rocket attacks Wednesday.

Palestinian terror groups opened fire on Israelis near the border and proceeded to launched at least 29 Qassam rockets and 10 mortar shells towards the western Negev. Seven rockets were fired within the space of 15 minutes, landing mostly in open areas south of Ashkelon and near Sderot; but the most recent attack resulted in a direct hit on a house in Sderot, and 10 residents who suffered shock.




http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/25/africa/25mideast.php
Quote:

Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday [24-Jun] struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas, the Islamic group that controls Gaza.




http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/27/content_8446361.htm
Quote:

Her remarks came hours after a rocket hit the Negev area earlier in the day [26-Jun], the fifth after the Egyptian-brokered truce went into effect last Thursday [19-Jun].

"There was a similar breach of the truce several days ago," Livni was quoted by the website of local daily Ha'aretz as saying at the start of her meeting with Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere.

...

Earlier, a rocket hit an open area of the industrial zone outside the city. There were no reports of injuries or damage, according to army sources.

....

It was the third time that the fragile cease-fire agreement was violated by attacks.

On Tuesday [24-Jun], the Islamic Jihad fired three Qassam rockets at the Sderot area, and a mortar shell was fired at Israel the previous day.




Hmmm... I may have to eat some of my words with respect to your graphic... I will dig into it more when I have time later this weekend.  Looking as if I will owe an apology, however.  :blush:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9575679 - 01/09/09 06:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
meanwhile, they started digging tunnels into Israel instead.





and of course the only reason to dig a tunnel is if you're up to no good?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6557924

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2008/09/2008999272950161.html

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9575700 - 01/09/09 06:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I fail to see what tunnels going into Egypt have to do with my statement.  What reason, other than 'being up to no good,' did Hamas have for digging a tunnel into Israel?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Seuss]
    #9575812 - 01/09/09 07:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

to assault military bases instead of civilian targets, to smuggle
goods in and out of gaza, there's a wide number of reasons they
could have dug the tunnels, what reason would israel have to shut
off the water going into gaza

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9576039 - 01/09/09 09:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
to assault military bases instead of civilian targets,



:rofl2:  Those pussies don't attack military targets except to kidnap individual soldiers
Quote:


to smuggle
goods in and out of gaza,




Smuggle:  see illegal
Quote:


there's a wide number of reasons they
could have dug the tunnels,



None of them legitimate
Quote:


what reason would israel have to shut
off the water going into gaza




How are they obligated to supply it?  Let the punks get it from their buddies in Egypt.  Oh wait, Egypt is blockading them too.  Nevermind.  Too bad they didn't build any desalinization plants instead of spending all their limited treasure on weapons, isn't it?


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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9576052 - 01/09/09 09:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

One of the arguments that can be made was that Israel violated the cease fire by placing a severe blockade against the Palestinian people. Hamas wanted to continue the ceasefire, but only on condition that Israel eases this blockade. Long before Hamas began these rocket attacks on Israel, Palestinians were facing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza because of the blockade. The former High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, described what was going on in Gaza as a destruction of a civilization and this was stated during the ceasefire period.

Both governments have acted in a rather despicable manner this is without question, but to not see what Israel is doing to these people is paramount to living in a fantasy land. Overall, the Palestinian death toll stands at least 778, including more than 200 children. It’s estimated at least 3,250 Palestinians have been injured. While some 13 Israelis have died over the same period 4 of them by friendly fire.

Another interesting side note regarding this on going struggle is that in July 2004, the highest judicial body in the world, the International Court of Justice, ruled Israel has no title to any of the West Bank and any of Gaza. They have no title to Jerusalem. Arab East Jerusalem, according to the highest judicial body in the world, is occupied Palestinian territory. The International Court of Justice ruled all the settlements in the West Bank, are illegal under international law.

Now, a critical point is that the Palestinians were willing to make concessions. They were willing to allow Israel to keep 60 percent of the settlements, 80 percent of the settlers. They were willing to compromise on Jerusalem. But Israel stood steadfast on not giving any concessions in the peace process. This is why every year when the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled “Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question” it’s the whole world on one side; Israel, the United states and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989, the vote was 151-to-3.

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Wizen]
    #9576154 - 01/09/09 09:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Israel is not at war with the Palestinians.  It is at war with Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization that has never ceased attacking Israel and that is devoted to its destruction.  A very large percentage of Palestinians have firmly placed the blame for this on Hamas as well as the greater world including the Arab States.
Quote:

Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian elections. As a result, Israel, the United States, the European Union, several Western states and the Arab states imposed sanctions suspending all foreign aid, upon which Palestinians depend. (They have promised to resume aid if Hamas fulfils '3 Demands' of recognizing Israel, accepting agreements made by the Palestinian Authority under the previous Fatah-led Administration and denouncing violence.)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_civil_skirmishes

The ICJ has no jurisdiction. 
Quote:

In contentious cases (adversial proceedings seeking to settle a dispute), the ICJ produces a binding ruling between states that agree to submit to the ruling of the court.



and
Quote:

Jurisdiction is often a crucial question for the Court in contentious cases. (See Procedure below.) The key principle is that the ICJ has jurisdiction only on the basis of consent.



and
Quote:

Generally, the Court has been most successful resolving border delineation and the use of oceans and waterways. While the Court has, in some instances, resolved claims by one State espoused on behalf of its nationals, the Court has generally refrained from hearing contentious cases that are political in nature, due in part to its lack of enforcement mechanism and its lack of compulsory jurisdiction. The Court has generally found it did not have jurisdiction to hear cases involving the use of force.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice#Contentious_issues_.28adversarial_proceedings.29
They are like Wapner.  Both parties must agree to submit to their rulings, either by prior contractual consent or any later consent.  Absent that consent they are nothing.


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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9576312 - 01/09/09 10:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
to assault military bases instead of civilian targets,



:rofl2:  Those pussies don't attack military targets except to kidnap individual soldiers




seems that if the IDF hits a military target it's purely
accidental in their quest to exterminate the palestinians, those
big ol' tough guys having to defend themselves against girls
with rocks and unarmerd civilians... and then they pull this one

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.gaza/index.html

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=3608

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090109/ts_afp/mideastconflictgazaundraftvote_newsmlmmd

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9576336 - 01/09/09 10:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Israel is not at war with the Palestinians.  It is at war with Hamas
A very large percentage of Palestinians have firmly placed the blame for this on Hamas as well as the greater world including the Arab States.
Quote:

The ICJ has no jurisdiction. 
Quote:

In contentious cases (adversial proceedings seeking to settle a dispute), the ICJ produces a binding ruling between states that agree to submit to the ruling of the court.










it appears they wouldnt have any jurisdiction regardless because
unlike israel no one with any say currently recognizes palestine
as a state and hamas is a 'governing body/group of terrorists'
and dont qualify as a state

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9576351 - 01/09/09 10:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Israel is not at war with the Palestinians



Really?:rolleyes:
Its mostly the Palestinians that are being massacred.Its the Palestinians land that has been invaded.
and its the Palestinians that are being rounded up (by the Israeli's)into houses only to be bombed by Israeli artillery fire.


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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: nw_shroomy]
    #9576375 - 01/09/09 11:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

you have to ask yourself who they were fighting with before hamas
came into power, wasnt it then that Fatah led palestinian government

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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9576433 - 01/09/09 11:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Here is an interesting article involving the aforementioned humanitarian violations by Israel.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/lead-j09.shtml


Here is a rather revolting excerpt;

Quote:

In one of the most appalling incidents, the International Red Cross in Geneva reported that on Wednesday its aid workers discovered four starving children lying next to their dead mothers in a house in the Zaytuon neighborhood south of Gaza City. The Red Cross had been trying since Saturday to send ambulances into the area, but only received permission from the Israeli military on Wednesday. The delay was a death sentence for many wounded civilians in the area.

Medical crews from the Red Cross and the Palestinian Red Crescent reported finding 12 corpses lying on mattresses in the house together with the children and their murdered mothers. The children were so weak from hunger that they were unable to stand.

The medical teams were compelled to evacuate surviving wounded on donkey carts because the Israeli military would not allow ambulances into the area. The Israeli troops threatened to fire on the ambulance teams if they did not leave, but the medical workers refused to stop their work until they were actually shot at.

The Red Cross issued a rare denunciation of Israeli actions, calling them unacceptable and charging the Israeli government with having “failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded.” In other words, it accused the Israeli regime of having carried out a war crime.

“This is a shocking incident,” said Pierre Wettach, the Red Cross’s head of delegation for Israel and the Palestinian territories. “The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded.”



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Re: Just so it's known, it was Israel who broke the cease-fire, NOT Hamas [Re: nw_shroomy]
    #9576869 - 01/09/09 01:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nw_shroomy said:
Quote:

Israel is not at war with the Palestinians



Really?:rolleyes:
Its mostly the Palestinians that are being massacred.Its the Palestinians land that has been invaded.




Not all Palestinians are Hamas.  Didn't you know that?  How's that horrible invasion of the West Bank going?
Quote:


and its the Palestinians that are being rounded up (by the Israeli's)into houses only to be bombed by Israeli artillery fire.



Bullshit. 

Just a small sample.


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