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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863344 - 08/29/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yep. It is not the first time this has happened either. During the first Aliyah, the local arabs lives were improved DRASTICALLY by the arrival of the Jews. The infany mortality rate was sky high, as well as illness in general, mainly from Malaria. The Jews came home, and drained the malaria filled swamps they purchased, and made them into orange orchards. The did this type of thing with most of the land which was pretty much worthless before then. These types of things provided lots of work for the local Arabs. The Jews also setup a hospital system, and basically an entire national infrasctructure long before they were ever 'given' a homeland. Again, all this benefited the local Arabs greatly. They then threw it all away, just like in this case.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863348 - 08/29/03 04:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, my mistake. Interesting though that the intifada propelled Sharon into power. Seeing as how it was Sharon's actions that provoked the intifada in the first place...


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863375 - 08/29/03 04:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You make it sound like the Jews returning was the best thing that ever happened to the arabs!

Happy homecoming?

Edit: from the link"April 9, 1948 A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children.Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul. "

I think this is one of the main incidents Hamas cite as a motivation for their actions. They should let it go but it does make your statement seem a little hollow doesnt it?


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Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (08/29/03 04:51 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863382 - 08/29/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Read this.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php

Quote:

What started the al-Aqsa intifada in September 2000?
In July of 2000, Yasser Arafat walked out of the Camp David peace talks and began plans for the armed struggle to resume. On September 27, 2000 an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction after the explosion of a roadside bomb. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart. Also on September 28, 2000, Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This visit became the pretext for instigating large scale demonstrations, the start of the al-Aqsa infifada.

Sharon did not attempt to enter any mosques during his 34 minute visit to the Temple Mount, Judaism?s holiest place, which Muslims have renamed Haram al-Sharif. His visit was conducted during normal hours when the area is open to tourists. Palestinian youths ? eventually numbering around 1,500 ? shouted slogans in an attempt to inflame the situation. Some 1,500 Israeli police were present at the scene to forestall violence.

There were limited disturbances during Sharon's visit, mostly involving stone throwing. During the remainder of the day, outbreaks of stone throwing continued on the Temple Mount and in the vicinity, leaving 28 Israeli policemen injured, three of whom were hospitalized. There are no accounts of Palestinian injuries on that day. Significant and orchestrated violence was initiated by Palestinians the following day after Friday prayers.

In a revealing interview with the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat (September 29, 2001), Marwan Barghouti, head of the Tanzim, admitted his critical role in igniting the October 2000 intifada in both the West Bank and Gaza, as well as among the Israeli Arabs:

I knew that the end of September was the last period (of time) before the explosion, but when Sharon reached the al-Aqsa Mosque, this was the most appropriate moment for the outbreak of the intifada....The night prior to Sharon's visit, I participated in a panel on a local television station and I seized the opportunity to call on the public to go to the al-Aqsa Mosque in the morning, for it was not possible that Sharon would reach al-Haram al-Sharif just so, and walk away peacefully. I finished and went to al-Aqsa in the morning....We tried to create clashes without success because of the differences of opinion that emerged with others in the al-Aqsa compound at the time....After Sharon left, I remained for two hours in the presence of other people, we discussed the manner of response and how it was possible to react in all the cities (bilad) and not just in Jerusalem. We contacted all (the Palestinian) factions.
In the evening of the same day, Barghouti traveled to the Arab Triangle inside Israel where he was to participate in a conference. He confessed:

While we were in the car on the way to the Triangle, I prepared a leaflet in the name of the Higher Committee of Fatah, coordinated with the brothers (e.g., Hamas), in which we called for a reaction to what happened in Jerusalem.
Imad Falouji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, said at a rally in Lebanon on March 3, 2001,
that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." He said:

Whoever thinks that this [war] started as a result of Sharon's despicable visit to Al Aksa is in error. It was planned since Arafat's return from Camp David [where he] firmly stood up to Clinton and rejected the U.S. terms.
The intifada has little to do with Sharon's visit, and everything to do with the Palistinian Arabs' political agenda.Sakhr Habash, a member of the Fatah's Central Committee, gave an interview to the Palestinian Authority newspapger, including this comment on the outbreak:

[The Intifada] did not break out in order to improve our bargaining ability in the negotiations, nor as a reaction to Sharon's provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif: this was only the spark. It was accumulated in the depths of our people and was bound to explode in the face of Barak's government because of the political problem that was put off for more than a year and a half -- the problem of independence.
On September 29, Palestinian Arabs staged large demonstrations and threw stones at police at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Police used rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition to disperse the demonstrators, killing 4 persons and injuring approximately 200.

Palestinians began violent demonstrations against IDF soldiers, settlers, and other Israeli civilians throughout the occupied territories; these demonstrations and ensuing clashes are known to Palestinian Arabs and many Israelis as the "al-Aqsa intifada".

From the beginning, in September 2000, the al-Aqsa intifada developed into the worst period of violence in Israel's history, excepting only the periods of all-out war with neighboring Arab countries.




So Sharon, visiting the most holy Jewish site started the infitada. The Palestinians deny this. Either way it is total bullshit. The temple mount has been a holy site to both groups for a long time. I believe it has been for the Jews for longer though.


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Offlineshakta
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Posts: 2,633
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863389 - 08/29/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
You make it sound like the Jews returning was the best thing that ever happened to the arabs!

Happy homecoming?

Edit: from the link"April 9, 1948 A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children.Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul. "

I think this is one of the main incidents Hamas cite as a motivation for their actions. They should let it go but it does make your statement seem a little hollow doesnt it?




No it doesn't at all. That was during the war, after the grand mufti planned with Hitler to kill all the Jews. They were a bit pissed I am sure. The period of time I was talking about was during the first Aliyah from 1880-1903. Arabs and Jews lived side by side peacefully back then. Things went to hell when the Arabs picked the wrong side in WW1, and lost. The same thing happened again in WW2.


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863398 - 08/29/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863402 - 08/29/03 05:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Cheers, Im not really familiar with that period of time. Just done a quick google but all of the sources seem to come from pro-israeli sources. Interesting stuff though.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863410 - 08/29/03 05:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You've got to admit though the list of Jewish terrorism I supplied doesnt make very nice reading.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863430 - 08/29/03 05:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No it doesn't. Terrorism is wrong no matter what. Of course the Jewish terrorist of the times represented a small minority of the Jews in the area. Can the same be said for Palestinians? I would hope so. Polls usually show that they are very sympathetic to the likes of Hamas.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863436 - 08/29/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The excuse for starting the intifada was the insult of Sharon setting foot on the temple mount. If that's all it took, then they were scraping for a pretext.



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1864664 - 08/30/03 01:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

April 9, 1948 A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children.Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul. "

Perhaps wingnutx will tell us they were near a SAMS battery?  :smirk:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1864732 - 08/30/03 01:26 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

And they will continue to be sympathetic if the Israelis continue to kill innocent Palestinians etc...

But if the Israelis were truly peaceful it would be interesting to see how that might change.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1864740 - 08/30/03 01:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That was mereley the incident that enflamed the situation. And as for scraping for pretexts how about "I know he has weapons of mass destruction. He is a danger to the entire world...."


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1864742 - 08/30/03 01:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps wingnutx will tell us they were near a SAMS battery?




Or perhaps they were throwing some really big rocks that day?!


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1865462 - 08/30/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for changing the subject. If that is true, then those who did it should be in jail.

That has no bearing on what Gaz and I were talking about.



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1865507 - 08/30/03 11:04 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lighten up.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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