Home | Community | Message Board

Kratom Eye
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Premium Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12  [ show all ]
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Israel to liquidate Hamas.
    #1848254 - 08/25/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GAZA CITY, Gaza ? The militant group Hamas (search) threatened revenge Monday after Israel killed four of its members in a missile strike and declared anyone in the group a target for "liquidation."

Aishtawi and another Hamas member. One speaker warned Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon "to prepare coffins."

"We are on the way, and we say to him that your assassinations will only bring death and destruction to your people in their own homes," the man said. Pointing a rifle toward the two bodies, he added: "All of us wish to be in their places."

The crowd carried green Hamas banners, but Hamas leaders stayed away.

Israel has stepped up army sweeps through West Banks towns following the Hamas homicide bombing last week. Troops have been searching house-to-house for fugitives and weapons, sparking clashes. Dozens of tanks and armored vehicles also have gathered along the Gaza border, apparently ready for an order to raid the coastal strip.

An Israeli helicopter rocket attack killed senior Hamas political leader Ismail Abu Shanab in Gaza City on Thursday, and militant groups called off a unilateral two-month cease-fire. Israeli army chief Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon declared Sunday that "every member of Hamas is a potential target for liquidation."

In the last three years of fighting, Israel has killed scores of wanted militants. Hamas and other militant groups called off a two-month cease-fire after Abu Shanab's killing.

Meanwhile, police and soldiers removed some 50 Jewish settlers and a trailer from a site in the West Bank city of Hebron, police said. Five settlers who refused to go were arrested, police said.

Since November, when an Islamic Jihad ambush in the area killed 12 security guards and soldiers, settlers repeatedly have tried to set up an illegal outpost.

Under intense U.S. pressure to keep commitments under the "road map" peace plan, Israel has dismantled several West Bank outposts but has failed to freeze construction at established settlements or remove dozens of other illegal outposts.




Sounds like a full scale war could be brewing in Israel. It seems to me that Arafat wants this to happen. He is impeding Abbas attempts to get their security forces together to go after Hamas. The Israelis are not going to wait for them to figure it out, and I don't blame them a bit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1848261 - 08/25/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Their campaign of killing one or two here and there is not working.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848271 - 08/25/03 12:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The Israeli's need to stage a major lightening strike and get them all at once.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848272 - 08/25/03 12:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I know. I believe we will see a full scale push by the Israelis soon. It would not surprise me if Lebanon becomes part of it as well. This could get real ugly, real quick. I think the only solution for their problem is for someone to win. There will be no peace there until someone wins the battle, and someone loses.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848278 - 08/25/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I see another culture=history thing here as well.

Will these groups ever get along?

I hope no one here is that idealistic.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1848280 - 08/25/03 12:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Define "winning" and "losing".


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1848288 - 08/25/03 12:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Winning = killing all of those that want to kill you.
Losing = being killed until you are all dead, or give up.

I just don't see a peaceful end to this conflict. As long as groups like Hamas are part of it, there will never be peace in the region. I am not saying the Israelis will have to kill all of the Palestinians. I think after they 'liquidate' groups like Hamas, the rest of the Pastinian people will be able to work out their differences with the Israelis, and come to an agreement. This assumes that their are Palestinians that are not willing to die to save the likes of Hamas.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1848295 - 08/25/03 12:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Will these groups ever get along?



I think so, but not until the militant groups are killed off.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1848324 - 08/25/03 12:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That sounds reasonable to me.

I also think there will never be peace in that region. After 2,000 years of conflict I think that has been established beyond a reasonable doubt.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1848350 - 08/25/03 01:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think the wall they are working on is a good interim step.

Too bad, because the Palestinians were starting to do pretty good before the intifada kicked in 3 years ago. They killed their golden goose, and no Arab state is going to step in to replace it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1848362 - 08/25/03 01:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think their will be peace, it will just be a forced peace. I just hope none of the Arab countries try to get involved. If they do, we might have to. Of course Israel can handle quite a bit on their own with what they have.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848573 - 08/25/03 02:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think so, but not until the militant groups are killed off.



I agree. I'm sure most people in the region just want decent lives for themselves and their families. And they could have gotten it 20 years ago if the rest of the arab world had been as evolved as Anwar Sadat. But the fact that a purely destructive force like Yasser Arafat is still around after 45 years as a terrorist leader does not inspire hope. How often do they switch leaders in Al Fatah?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1848581 - 08/25/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sadat's assassination was the mother of all blown chances. He could have been another Ataturk.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848594 - 08/25/03 02:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I will say it again, as I have 100 times before. If I was Sharon, I would blow that fat bastard Arafat to pieces. This guy invented the airplane hijacking for christ sakes!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1849657 - 08/25/03 08:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No, they wont.. because its isnt just militants and extremists. It's religion and people and culture. Ehud Barak offered Arafat and the PLO 97% of the West bank, soverignty over the temple mount and more and still no deal. See, the average american just does not understand that a great majority of palestinans and muslims in general dont give a rats ass about the land, they believe that the jews should be gone from the face of the earth, the land is just a political device.

Of course it is my belief that peace will never happen, because in order for palestine to accept peace the Jews would no longer control jerusalem and that, my friends, will never happen again.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1849697 - 08/25/03 08:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I also think there will never be peace in that region. After 2,000 years of conflict I think that has been established beyond a reasonable doubt.




C'mon,man.I expect a smart guy like you to know better than that.This conflict is little more than 50 years old.Of course there have always been little skirmishes between each other,but that happens with every society. Historically, the majority of the fighting has been between Christians and Muslims,not the Jews (ya know,the crusades and all).

I don't see how you righties can honestly look at this conflict in an open,balanced manner and still side with the Israelis. If it's anybody,they are in the wrong,but I think both sides are equally fucked up.

And contrary to what you see on the news,it's usually a couple extremists on both sides that fuck it up for everyone.People just jump to their sides when the major shit goes down. Talk to anybody on this board from that region who is in to the drug culture and they'll tell you that there is a huge rave scene there were Muslims and Jews get together without any anomosity whatsoever.It's a very beautiful thing.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: monoamine]
    #1849810 - 08/25/03 09:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Israel didnt become a state till 48... so yeah, technically this reincarnation of animosity is 55 years old. However, the fight between muslim and jewish beliefs is definately not only 55 years old, silly. It dates back to Esau and Mohammed and Jesus. When the religion was born, the Jews controlled Mecca, not the Gentiles. Hello, battle of badr. 622.. after mohammed has his "Night of power" .. how about the soon following battles at Ditch and Uhud.. the killing of a thousand jewish captives, 630 capture of mecca, 634 invasion of Jerusalem?... etc, etc?


--------------------


Edited by PsiloKitten (08/25/03 09:18 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1849852 - 08/25/03 09:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I am afraid that you are correct.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1849857 - 08/25/03 09:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
The Israeli's need to stage a major lightening strike and get them all at once.




of course, after all of "them" are killed, there won't be any of "them" left.

good thinking.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1849869 - 08/25/03 09:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Winning = killing all of those that want to kill you.
Losing = being killed until you are all dead, or give up.





simple as that folks.  :lol:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1850258 - 08/25/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

There has always been some hatred of each other,but almost every organized religion has been like that. Sure some of this ancient hatred has been carried over by hardcore fundalmentalists,but the fighting in its current reincarnation stems directly from the the '47-'48 invasions.
I believe if the Israeili's would comply with the (I can't remember the exact year right now) boundries,the fighting would calm down considerably.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: monoamine]
    #1850741 - 08/26/03 07:27 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Why don't the Israelis deserve a place to live? Look at a map. Israel is a tiny piece of the land over there. The Arabs have the rest of it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Malachi]
    #1851066 - 08/26/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

of course, after all of "them" are killed, there won't be any of "them" left.

Yep, and then they'll just have to kill all the children of "them" and all the relations of "them" and all the relations of relations of "them"....



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851070 - 08/26/03 10:38 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Why don't the Israelis deserve a place to live? Look at a map. Israel is a tiny piece of the land over there. The Arabs have the rest of it.

So why not give them the state of Virginia? Or Texas? Why do the arabs have to give up their land? The americans support them, why not let them live in peace in their own state in America?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851085 - 08/26/03 10:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm, we could give them New York.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851094 - 08/26/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think the USA should invade Isreal if they do go to war. This is because Isreal really has weapons of mass destruction and could use them.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851135 - 08/26/03 11:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Why don't the Israelis deserve a place to live? Look at a map. Israel is a tiny piece of the land over there. The Arabs have the rest of it.

So why not give them the state of Virginia? Or Texas? Why do the arabs have to give up their land? The americans support them, why not let them live in peace in their own state in America?




Because they have lived in the region for centuries maybe?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1851159 - 08/26/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Israel didnt become a state till 48...  so yeah, technically this reincarnation of animosity is 55 years old.  However,  the fight between muslim and jewish beliefs is definately not only 55 years old, silly.  It dates back to Esau and Mohammed and Jesus.  When the religion was born, the Jews controlled Mecca, not the Gentiles.  Hello, battle of badr. 622.. after mohammed has his "Night of power" .. how about the soon following battles at Ditch and Uhud.. the killing of a thousand jewish captives, 630 capture of mecca, 634  invasion of Jerusalem?... etc, etc? 




:thumbup:  Bingo!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Autonomous]
    #1851221 - 08/26/03 11:35 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

how about we just give them japan?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Malachi]
    #1851233 - 08/26/03 11:41 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

hah!

and piss off the INVENTORS of the suicide bombing?

:tongue:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851478 - 08/26/03 01:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Because they have lived in the region for centuries maybe?

Israel was formed in 1948.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851496 - 08/26/03 01:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The people have been in the area for a couple thousand years.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851515 - 08/26/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So what?

Do they live another thousand years of misery (or more accurately till the oil runs out and America doesn't need a military ally in the area anymore) or do we solve the problem overnight by simply giving them a state in America?

It would go a long way to ending muslim terrorism too.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851531 - 08/26/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It's a "holy land".

I don't think holiness transferrable.

What a dumb concept.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1851545 - 08/26/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Guess you'd have to ask the average jew where he'd rather live. Free with zero terrorism in america or dealing with suicide bombers every day.

I think you'd find quite a few would prefer America.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851548 - 08/26/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quite a few came from America (I don't mean as a large percentage of the population though).

** edit: Here's an article about some of them. ***


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Edited by Autonomous (08/26/03 01:55 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851552 - 08/26/03 01:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I know a few who do, at least. Some of my trainers are Israeli.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1851571 - 08/26/03 01:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think you'd find quite a few would prefer America.



They are free to come here if they choose. Yet there they stay.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1851641 - 08/26/03 02:12 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly luv. Their are quite a few American Jews that live there Alex. The problem now is that the Palestinians can not control the groups like Hamas long enough for a peace process to work. I am not giving the Israelis a free pass, they have done their share of bullshit over the years. I just believe they are doing the right thing now by going after the militants. As long as they are allowed to exist, there will never be peace. They don't want a Palestinian state. They want it all. The want the Jews extinquished, and they won't be happy until they reach that point. Personally, I find it hypocritical of my government to tell Israel not to retaliate. We sure as hell would. I heard a great analogy yesterday.

Suppose a group of radical Mexicans decided to start targeting civillians in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California. They claim they won't stop until the US gives the land back that we 'stole' from them. This is basically how groups like Hamas are trying to accomplish their goals. There is no way in hell we would allow this to continue. We would root them out and kill every last one of them. I think it is safe to say the English would do the same thing in a similar situation. Yet, no one wants to allow Israel to do the same thing.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851649 - 08/26/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That group would be called 'Mecha'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1851661 - 08/26/03 02:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah, guess who is a member. The one and only Lt. Governor Bustamante. For some reason this is getting no pub in the press at all. We all know the reason of course. Think about a KKK member trying to run for governor. The media would be outraged, but since he is a minority Bustamante gets off scott free.

One other point about Mecha. They aren't blowing up busses. :wink:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851671 - 08/26/03 02:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

KKK members can get elected to the senate with no problem.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1851680 - 08/26/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

'Former' KKK members can when they are from W. Virginia. Try that in California.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/Bustamante-Cruz.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851692 - 08/26/03 02:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I posted an article about that last week, I think.

KKK members can be senators only if they are dems. A pubbie would never get away with that.

Remember when Byrd was talking about 'white niggers' on television a year or two ago? He got a complete pass.

Then again, so did Bustamante when he used that language at a rally a while back.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1851703 - 08/26/03 02:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yet Trent Lott, gives Strom a little pat on the back for his service, and he looses his job. What liberal bias?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851747 - 08/26/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lott deserved a butt kicking, but yeah some balance would be nice.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1851839 - 08/26/03 03:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You really think so? It didn't seem to me like he meant it the way it was portrayed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1851856 - 08/26/03 03:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure if he did, but he deserved a butt kicking for being a dumbass in any case.

He was a crappy leader. Frist is a lot better.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1851863 - 08/26/03 03:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

True, true.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1852474 - 08/26/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Isn't he a doctor?

I wonder what his position is on Medical Marijuana.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1853556 - 08/27/03 12:12 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think Frist is a first rate asshole because of his position on animal rights.

But what do I know.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1853630 - 08/27/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That's my main beef with him,NORML gave him a pretty bad rating on medical marijuana.Since he was an MD,he seems to take the medical establishment outlook and overlooks other chemicals in marijuana. (ie a dranibinol pusher). His reasoning is that we have synethetics,so why marijuana?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1853634 - 08/27/03 12:38 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It would go a long way to ending muslim terrorism too.



Yes, relocating the israeli population to America would end muslim terrorism in Israel. But the muslim terrorism in Egypt, Algeria, Indonesia, Afghanistan and India would continue as before.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854126 - 08/27/03 07:24 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I just believe they are doing the right thing now by going after the militants.




The only thing going after the militants will ensure is that more Israeli's will get blown up. I mean come on, its blindingly obvious. I told you this would happen weeks ago and if I can see it coming then Im damn sure the Israelis can. Which begs the question are they willfully trying to provoke the Palestinians or are they really just plain thick as pig shit?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854133 - 08/27/03 07:30 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, your right. They should just let their people be blown into unidentifiable pieces while they are returning from a prayer service. They need to step up their operations and stamp out the threat, instead of trying to negotiate with it. That obviously hasn't worked.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854148 - 08/27/03 07:41 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The ceasefire was adhered to until the Israelis took out the two Hamas leaders. Since then it has just gone down hill. Also, check how many innocent Palestinian bystanders get caught up in these raids and then try and work out why these actions only ensure the deaths of more Israelis.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854166 - 08/27/03 08:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Israel was never part of the cease fire to begin with. It was a bogus attempt by the militants to make Israel look bad. The demands they put in the cease fire were ridiculous to say the least.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854184 - 08/27/03 08:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Which part of the demands did you see as ridiculous?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854187 - 08/27/03 08:12 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

They wanted them to realease every single Palestinian prisoner, knowing full well that would never happen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854194 - 08/27/03 08:19 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Do you honestly believe that the Israelis can end the militant threat by killing it? Everytime the Israelis kill one militant at least another one is born. Do you realise how easy it is to make the neccesary equipment for a suicide attack? The Israelis will never wipe out the militant threat unless they wipe out all of the Palestinians. I think Sharon knows that too. Perhaps if the Israelis had just sat back while the ceasefire was on those Israelis who were killed recently would still be alive today.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854209 - 08/27/03 08:31 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You know it is real easy to ask them to leave the militants alone from where we are sitting. We don't have people getting blown up in our streets every day either. Israel continued to go after Hamas people like they said they would before and during the cease fire. They were not as heavy handed about it as usual. Then Hamas had to go and blow up the bus full of people. Killing a legitimate target such as a Hamas member, and blowing up a bus full of people is not the same thing, and it never will be the same thing. Abbas denounced the attack. He knew it wasn't the wise thing to do. He even said it was not in the interest of the Palestinian people. The PA has not kept up it's end of the roadmap at all. They have done nothing to dismantle the terror groups. The main reason is Arafat will not cooperate with Abbas to even try it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854220 - 08/27/03 08:46 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The funny thing is Shakta, you harp on and on about all the Israelis who die but I dont recall you ever referring to all the innocent Palestinians who have been killed. Perhaps in your mind there is no such thing? You obviously need to be reminded that at least twice as many Palestinians have been killed in the current intifada. 20 bystanders were injured in the latest attack and at least 2 bystanders killed. I wonder how many of their families are now ready to strap some tnt on and go for a wander around Tel Aviv. Its fairly simple cause and effect wouldnt you say? I mean its hardly quantum physics is it?

So anyway, Can you explain to me how Israel are supposed to remove the militant threat without creating new militants who are outraged at seeing members of their family killed? Do you really think that the Israelis only have to kill a certain amount of Palestinians to solve the problem? Surely not....

As for following the roadmap are you honestly suggesting that the Israelis have followed the roadmap whilst only the Palestinians have been remiss in their obligations?

Whats been happening with the settlements?

The way I see it if one side were to lay down their arms and turn the other cheek, even in the face of continued attacks, eventually peace would be found. I know you will struggle to grasp this concept but I think it makes alot more sense than your method of killing more Palestinians.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854237 - 08/27/03 09:05 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The way I see it if one side were to lay down their arms and turn the other cheek, even in the face of continued attacks, eventually peace would be found.

there are alot of islamist militants out there who want to see an end to the nation of israel and its people. they're not pissed because israel's fighting against them, or that it kills palestinians or invades their settlements. their beef with israel is that it EXISTS. short of the annihilation of israel, there is nothing that will pacify many of these extremists (for example, the sort that blow up busses full of civilians in the midst of a cease-fire and peaceful negotiations).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854243 - 08/27/03 09:09 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

When terrorists target and murder innocent bystanders they use all sorts of motivation. Revenge for the killing of one of their own is only one such motive. So even if the cycle of revenge could be stopped, all the other motives behind the terrorism will remain. That's why it is better to actively hunt and incapacitate these people than it is to leave them alone, even if the hunt increases the revenge-motivated parts of the total terrorism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1854245 - 08/27/03 09:12 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When terrorists target and murder innocent bystanders they use all sorts of motivation.




I couldnt agree more Rhizoid but how do you propose we stop the Israelis?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854250 - 08/27/03 09:14 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The funny thing is Shakta, you harp on and on about all the Israelis who die but I dont recall you ever referring to all the innocent Palestinians who have been killed.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that's because you don't see any Israelis strapping explosives on and then climbing on a bus (or entering a deli or dance hall) and deliberately killing as many non-combatants as possible.

If they did, I'd refer to them as scumbags as well.


Quote:

Can you explain to me how Israel are supposed to remove the militant threat without creating new militants who are outraged at seeing members of their family killed?



Easy, kill the families as well.


Quote:

Whats been happening with the settlements?



There should have never been any settlements.


Quote:

The way I see it if one side were to lay down their arms and turn the other cheek, even in the face of continued attacks, eventually peace would be found.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854254 - 08/27/03 09:16 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I couldnt agree more Rhizoid but how do you propose we stop the Israelis?



Ah, an attempt at humor. You must have missed the word "target". Would you like me to fetch the definition for you?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1854265 - 08/27/03 09:19 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Their are extremists on both sides, you are aware of that I take it?

Do you also think the Israelis can find peace by killing more Palestinians?

IN FACT IF ANY OF YOU MENTAL DWARFS OUT THERE WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVE PEACE CAN BE ACHIEVED BY KILLING PEOPLE WOULD CARE TO EXPLAIN HOW EXACTLY THIS WORKS I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL. I MEAN ACTUAL NUTS AND BOLTS OF HOW EXACTLY IT WORKS NOT MORE WHINING ALONG THE LINES OF THEY STARTED IT BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854289 - 08/27/03 09:28 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that's because you don't see any Israelis strapping explosives on and then climbing on a bus (or entering a deli or dance hall) and deliberately killing as many non-combatants as possible.

If they did, I'd refer to them as scumbags as well.




Oh now I get it! Your reality tunnel is so weird it took me a while but now I see it!! Its not the end result that bothers you i.e Innocents dead(remember the Israelis have killed plenty of innocent Palestinians) Its the modus operandi that bothers you. So if the Palestinians could afford to buy some tanks and some natty guns and uniforms and then claim they were after known Israelis terrorists it would be ok!

Try and remember this is a circle of violence.

Quote:

Easy, kill the families as well.




I hope this is another one of your really shit jokes. If not you are advocating killing the entire Palestinian population as you will eventually turn at least one member of every family into a militant.

Quote:

There should have never been any settlements.




Wow! We agree.

As for all your smiley faces...

My solution stands up logically. The idea that you can end the violence by killing Palestinians does not stand up logically. Americans love to see people getting killed though.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854290 - 08/27/03 09:28 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You are ignoring what everyone is telling you. BTW, flaming is not allowed in here any more, so you might want to quit the name calling. You want to know how peace comes from war, huh? You kill all the agressors. Eventually those that remain will give it up or die. It worked with Germany, and Japan quite well. Your opinion that if the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be peace is ridiculous. The people they are fighting want them all dead. You just refuse to see this.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854299 - 08/27/03 09:33 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I can recall 2 instances where an Israeli deliberately butchered Muslim civilians.

Both perps are doing life in an Israeli prison, I think. They certainly do not have streets or grade schools named after them.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854306 - 08/27/03 09:37 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Its not the end result that bothers you i.e Innocents dead(remember the Israelis have killed plenty of innocent Palestinians) Its the modus operandi that bothers you. So if the Palestinians could afford to buy some tanks and some natty guns and uniforms and then claim they were after known Israelis terrorists it would be ok!




This is pretty simple. How about the Palestinians go after the Israeli military. Snipe a soldier at a check point. Blow up a tank with a homemade bomb. If you have to fight against those that are fighting you, do it. PURPOSEFULLY targeting civillians is wrong. The civilians killed by the Israelis usually happen because they are around a legitimate target. If I am a Palestinian, and know someone is a member of Hamas, I stay the hell away from them. I am not going to say that Israel has always been justified in their attacks. Some of the stuff they have done is wrong.

The problem is all of the world tries to paint them as this evil country who are the worst human rights violators in the world. This is far from true. It is bullshit. They have a right to defend themselves and their borders as a sovereign nation. The other side of the coin, is the fact that you seem to think the militants are some kind of noble downtrodden army or something. This is not true either. They are terrorists. They repeatedly target civillians in the worst possible way. They want all the Jews dead, and most of them want Syria or another country to take all the land.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854310 - 08/27/03 09:38 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hey at least I have a reality tunnel. You should try one.

Quote:

Its the modus operandi that bothers you



No, as I've said before it's the deliberate targeting of civilians that bothers me. While I don't much care for collateral damage either, I don't find it even remotely as reprehensible as deliberately killing women and children.


Quote:

My solution stands up logically.



No it doesn't. Turning the other cheeks just ensures bruises on both sides of your face.


Quote:

Americans love to see people getting killed though.



Oh my! A generalization. And not even a good one. Sorry but to the best of my knowledge most of us don't cream our pants at the thought of women and children being blown to bits.

We do however enjoy seeing the bad guys get their asses blown to bits.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854317 - 08/27/03 09:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You kill all the agressors. Eventually those that remain will give it up or die.




What do you mean give up or die? How will they die?

Quote:

It worked with Germany, and Japan quite well.




How the hell can you compare the Palestinians with the Germans or the Japanese?? That is beyond stupid.

Quote:

The people they are fighting want them all dead. You just refuse to see this.





Well prove it to me then. I want facts.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854324 - 08/27/03 09:44 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Om my! A generalization. Sorry but to the best of my knowledge most of us don't cream our pants at the thought of women and children being blown to bits.

We do however enjoy seeing the bad guys get their asses blown to bits. 




Cheers Luvvie you fell right into my trap! Muwaahhhhhaahhahaha! :grin:

You took that to mean I was referring to all Americans yet when you said "The French are assholes" Alex123 was supposed to know automatically that you in fact werent generalising and were in fact referring only to those you had met.

How exactly does that work??   


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854328 - 08/27/03 09:46 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ah, an attempt at humor. You must have missed the word "target". Would you like me to fetch the definition for you?




Ah, an attempt at sarcasm. I wont be needing the dictionary I read it fine the first time around. The Israelis say they are targetting terrorists and then kill innocents or bulldoze down their houses.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854331 - 08/27/03 09:47 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Actually I knew what you meant.... hence the "Oh my".

It's not a phrase I use often.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854333 - 08/27/03 09:48 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The comparison is valid. I am not saying the Palestinian people are bad like the Nazis. I am saying that they will give up if enough of them are killed like in any war. Killing your enemy until they concede is how wars are won.

You ask for proof about Hamas' intentions. Here is a snippet from an article that illustrates it pretty well.

Quote:

Hamas is one of the largest terror organizations in Israel. An extensive network of clinics, schools, and other social work?amounting to more than $70 million annually?does not obscure its mission statement: to raise "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." A week before the attacks Hamas leaders ended talks with Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas aimed at convincing them to lay down their weapons and give peace a chance. Instead, Hamas and other militant groups declared their opposition to the U.S.-authored two-state solution, despite Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's acquiescence to the creation of a Palestinian state. Hamas may be targeting Israelis, but resurgent attacks since Mr. Abbas met with President Bush and Mr. Sharon suggest the militants also want to make casualties of fellow Palestinians, if they happen to call for peace.





http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/06-21-03/opening_3.asp


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854348 - 08/27/03 09:53 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You are ignoring what everyone is telling you.




What exactly am I ignoring?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854350 - 08/27/03 09:53 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You want to know how peace comes from war, huh? You kill all the agressors.

Read up on a man called Gandhi. You'll be amazed.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854352 - 08/27/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

other side of the coin, is the fact that you seem to think the militants are some kind of noble downtrodden army or something.




No I dont. Where have I ever said that? You assume far to much as usual.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1854354 - 08/27/03 09:55 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

their beef with israel is that it EXISTS. short of the annihilation of israel, there is nothing that will pacify many of these extremists




Very emotive. Now try proving it.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854356 - 08/27/03 09:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That is so weak! sooooo sooo weak!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1854359 - 08/27/03 09:57 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Unless Arafat looks like Ghandi to you, get over it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854361 - 08/27/03 09:58 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Very emotive. Now try proving it.




It is common knowledge. Did you read what I posted?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854363 - 08/27/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It is common knowledge

:lol:



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854365 - 08/27/03 10:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Unless Arafat looks like Ghandi to you, get over it.

Gazz stated a solution to the conflict which you poured scorn on by saying all that brings peace from war is to "kill all aggressors".

I repeat, read the story of Gandhi to see how nonsensical your views are.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1854368 - 08/27/03 10:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I know about Ghandi. I am saying one does not exist in this conflict. The comparison is weak at best. What is so funny about stating that Hamas wants the Israelis gone, is common knowledge? It is, as their mission statement proves.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854384 - 08/27/03 10:14 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

IN FACT IF ANY OF YOU MENTAL DWARFS OUT THERE WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVE PEACE CAN BE ACHIEVED BY KILLING PEOPLE WOULD CARE TO EXPLAIN HOW EXACTLY THIS WORKS I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL. I MEAN ACTUAL NUTS AND BOLTS OF HOW EXACTLY IT WORKS NOT MORE WHINING ALONG THE LINES OF THEY STARTED IT BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

there are palestinians with legitimate grievances. they wish to see an end to israeli military actions against their people. they want statehood. they want to see an end to the violence.

there are others who want nothing but the destruction of israel. they do not want to see the violence stop until the jews are driven into the sea. read up about hamas and islamic jihad and what their goals are. these groups do not have legitimate grievances. their fundamental tenet is intolerance and anti-semitism. they care nothing for the peace process, and nothing for palestinian statehood, as it is a compromise that leaves them short of their intended goal: the destruction of israel and the creation of an islamic theocracy in its place. these people cannot be pacified. there will not be peace until they are dead or the israelis are dead, and that's a statement they'd agree with.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854397 - 08/27/03 10:19 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"What does Hamas believe?

Hamas combines the ideas of Palestinian nationalism and religious fundamentalism. Its founding charter pledges the group to carry out armed struggle, try to destroy Israel and replace Arafat?s government with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and raise ?the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.? Hamas leaders gloated openly over a March 2002 suicide bombing that killed 28 Israelis at a Passover seder, calling it ?a great success,? welcoming Israeli retaliation as a way to recruit more supporters, and hailing the weapon of suicide bombings as the ?F-16? of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes ?peace talks will do no good,? said the group?s main spokesman, Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi. ?We do not believe we can live with the enemy.?"

Hamas Q & A's



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854401 - 08/27/03 10:21 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe, but it was also sooo sooo true.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1854846 - 08/27/03 12:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well proven!

But surely Hamas accounts for a very small proportion of the Palestinian population? Do you seriously think a majority of Palestinians really want to drive the Jews into the sea?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854861 - 08/27/03 12:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It doesn't matter. Hamas, IJ, and the other group with the long name I can't remember are who the Israelis are trying to get rid of.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854901 - 08/27/03 12:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I've got a solution: How about we nuke Israel AND Palestine, and let God sort 'em out? Then, any surviving Israelis and Palestinians will be united in their hatred towards us.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1854906 - 08/27/03 12:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Um, OK. :rolleyes:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1854909 - 08/27/03 12:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

When you consider twice as many Palestinians have died who really are the most violent and dangerous people in the area?

I dont support Hamas or think that any of their attacks are justified but at the same time I dont accept the Israelis actions.
I beleive it is easier for the Israelis to stop their own violence than it is for the Palestinian leadership who exert little meaningful control over Hamas etc.

The guy in the quote summed it up when he said he welcolmed Israeli attacks as it meant more members for Hamas.

It is a circle of violence. How can more violence end it? It will only perpetuate it.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854962 - 08/27/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I find the following quite interesting as it shows just what scumbags the bombers are.


Skewing the Death Tolls
A statistical study reveals startling trends by breaking the death tolls down by age, gender, and other factors.



As Israel reels from today's terror attack near Emanuel, the media resorts to the old scoreboard technique of reporting that "1,500 Palestinians have been killed, compared to about 550 Israelis."

HonestReporting protests this method of reporting casualties, which makes no distinction between civilians and armed combatants, it lumps suicide bombers with their innocent civilians, and it reports Palestinian "collaborators" murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israelis.

A new comprehensive study by the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT) reveals some startling trends by breaking the death tolls down into sub-segments -- e.g. age, gender, and whether or not they were combatants.

The study shows that while the majority of Palestinian deaths in the conflict are combatants, Israeli fatalities are 80 percent noncombatants.

Researchers also found that Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 185 of their own number -- one out of every eight Palestinians killed in the conflict thus far. (In the previous wave of Palestinian violence during the late 1980s, about 800 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians as "suspected collaborators" -- amounting to about one-third of the total death toll.)

ICT researchers also found that the proportion of women in the Israeli death toll is about 30 percent. By contrast, Palestinian fatalities are overwhelmingly 95 percent male. All total, 61 Palestinian females have been killed, compared to 160 Israeli females.

Another great disproportion exists amongst noncombatants aged 40 and over, where 154 Israelis have been killed, compared to 69 Palestinians.

* * *

Unfair reporting of the casualty count has long been a thorn in the side of media watch groups. Scores of Palestinians have been wounded by Palestinian-perpetrated bus bombings. Other Palestinians have been killed or wounded while making bombs which detonated prematurely. Other Palestinian deaths were later discovered to be due intra-Palestinian crime-related activity, or even to traffic accidents.

Last year, The New York Times published an illustrated graph, comparing Jewish deaths and Arab deaths in the conflict. Many HonestReporting readers wrote to complain that the graph was misleading, and the response from Bill Borders of The Times was surprisingly curt and dismissive: "The graphs are correct because everyone that they count as dead is in fact dead. All of them."

Teen Newsweek, a magazine distributed to middle school students across America, published a chart illustrating the number of Palestinian and Israeli children killed since 1987. The Palestinian numbers, represented in bright red, many times exceed Israeli losses, shown in a less visible yellow. There is no explanation of circumstances how these children died. The implication is that there is equivalency -- even though the Palestinian children were killed while attempting martyrdom in the context of violent attacks on Israeli forces, while the Israeli children were killed while sitting on a public bus or in a cafe, blown up by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

Some media outlets simply have a hard time counting. A recent BBC article featured a photo of a burned-out Israeli bus, with the caption: "Suicide attacks have killed dozens of Israelis." Shouldn't that be "hundreds"?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2050000/2050302.stm

The ICT report is an excellent and thorough statistical analysis, complete with comparative charts and graphs. HonestReporting recommends that you refer editors to this report, and encourage them to list casualty figures more accurately.

The full ITC report is online at:
http://www.ict.org.il/researchreport/researchreport.htm

A shorter summary version is at:
http://www.ict.org.il/researchreport/projectsummary.htm


Link


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854979 - 08/27/03 01:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The study shows that while the majority of Palestinian deaths in the conflict are combatants

And what do these far right arseholes classify as "combatants"? As far as I'm aware there isn't even a palestinian army. Are "combatants" those 10 year old kids throwing stones at tanks?

I don't suppose they mention the infamous slaughter of palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila either? No surprises there...



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1854991 - 08/27/03 01:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, that is very informative, and pretty much kills the biggest anti-Israel argument.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1854998 - 08/27/03 01:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Here's a novel thought, either look at the summary or ask the authors of the study. I looked at the summary and it's broken down quite nicely.
Of course you won't believe it anyway since it goes against what it seems you'd like to believe.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855005 - 08/27/03 01:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I don't suppose they mention the infamous slaughter of palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila either? No surprises there...




What's no surprise is that you appear to have made up your mind before even looking.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855018 - 08/27/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Could you post what they classify as "combatants"? I don't really have the time to go searching through the document for it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855034 - 08/27/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

What's no surprise is that you appear to have made up your mind before even looking.

I'd love to be surprised by something you posted luv. Do they mention sabra and shatila?

On 11 September 1982, Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon, the architect of the invasion, announced that "2,000 terrorists" had remained inside the Palestinian refugee camps around Beirut. On Wednesday 15 September, the day after the assassination of Israeli-allied Phalangist militia leader and Lebanese President-elect Bashir Gemayel, the Israeli army occupied West Beirut, "encircling and sealing" the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were inhabited by Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. By mid-day on 15 September 1982, the refugee camps were entirely surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, who installed checkpoints at strategic locations and crossroads around the camps in order to monitor the entry or exit of any person. During the late afternoon and evening of that day, the camps were shelled

Around mid-day on Thursday 16 September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists entered the first camp. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500. The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, since Israel's Kahan Commission did not have a judicial mandate and was not backed up by legal force.





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855045 - 08/27/03 01:37 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Could you post what they classify as "combatants"? I don't really have the time to go searching through the document for it.



Al, as much as I wouldn't mind "spoon feeding" you, there's just too much info there. There are graphs aplenty breaking it down by age, sex, combatants, non-combatants and the like.

And no, after a search they don't speciffically mention either of those two places but they don't mention where any of the fatalities took place.

I've heard of those but as I seem to recall the UN was unable to prove a "massacre" had took place. It's been awhile so I could be wrong.

And how about a link to your paste?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855054 - 08/27/03 01:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yep, you're wrong:

Resolution 521 (1982)S/RES/521 (1982)
19 September 1982
Adopted by the Security Council at its 2396th meeting
on 19 September 1982

The Security Council,

Appalled at the massacre of Palestinian civilians in Beirut,

Having heard the report of the Secretary-General (S/15400),

Noting that the Government of Lebanon has agreed to the dispatch of United Nations Observers to the sites of greatest human suffering and losses in and around that city,

1. Condemns the criminal massacre of Palestinian civilians in Beirut;


UN Security Council Res. Resolving that the Sabra and Shatila massacre was a genocide

37/123. The situation in the Middle East

A/RES/37/123(A-F)
16 December 1982

The General Assembly,

Recalling its resolution 95 (I) of 11 December 1946,

Recalling also its resolution 96 (I) of 11 December 1946, in which it, inter alia, affirmed that genocide is a crime under international law which the civilized world condemns, and for the commission of which principals and accomplices -whether private individuals, public officials or statesmen, and whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds - are punishable,

Referring to the provisions of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1948,6/

Recalling the relevant provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949,2/

Appalled at the large-scale massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps situated at Beirut,

Recognizing the universal outrage and condemnation of that massacre,

Recalling its resolution ES-7/9 of 24 September 1982,

1. Condemns in the strongest terms the large-scale massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps;

2. Resolves that the massacre was an act of genocide.




--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855055 - 08/27/03 01:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Here is another version of the events. So, the Israelis were guilty of not knowing the Pahalangists would do this? I think it is sad that the Israelis got all the blame, when they did not actually do the killing.

Quote:

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16?17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855060 - 08/27/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The massacre he refers to did take place. It was perpetrated by some Christian (Druse) Lebanese allied with Israel.

The hoax you are thinking of was from last year, and even the PA has official backed off of that one.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855065 - 08/27/03 01:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The charts are for a 23 month period from 9/00 to 8/02. So neither would be included as they took place 15+ years ago.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1855066 - 08/27/03 01:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So, the Israelis were guilty of not knowing the Pahalangists would do this?

Yes, surrounded by Israeli tanks and armed divisions, somehow those pesky phalangists committed genocide while the Israelis backs were turned..for 2-3 days..


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1855068 - 08/27/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
The massacre he refers to did take place. It was perpetrated by some Christian (Druse) Lebanese allied with Israel.

The hoax you are thinking of was from last year, and even the PA has official backed off of that one.



No, I recalled that one but was mistaken about the others.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855097 - 08/27/03 01:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

gen?o?cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Greek genos, race; see gen- in Indo-European Roots + -cide.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
geno?cidal (-sdl) adj.
geno?cidal?ly adv.

Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1855101 - 08/27/03 01:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Have pity on him, or for him.

:wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1855282 - 08/27/03 02:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The UN said "2. Resolves that the massacre was an act of genocide".

Are you having trouble grasping this Wing?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 26 days
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855295 - 08/27/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Whats with all the cuttie names? :loveeyes:

wing...luvs....shak....al.....

nobody calls me az... :frown:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1855299 - 08/27/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Now now, I'm sure I've called you az in the past...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855301 - 08/27/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

They can resolve that you are king of infinite space, but that doesn't make it so.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 26 days
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855308 - 08/27/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Now now, I'm sure I've called you az in the past... 




:blush: :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855309 - 08/27/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Anyone can call anything whatever they wish.

Unless the entire Palestinian people were in those camps, it couldn't be genocide.

Using the word does not make it so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1855310 - 08/27/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Bwahahahahahah!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1855316 - 08/27/03 03:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It's a little easier to resolve that slaughtering hundreds of civilians simply because they're palestinian is an act of genocide tho.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855318 - 08/27/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Did you read the article I posted at all? There was a lot more than just Palestinians there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855322 - 08/27/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
It's a little easier to resolve that slaughtering and raping hundreds of civilians simply because they're palestinian is an act of genocide tho.



Actually, unless you are incapable of using a dictionary, it's not.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855326 - 08/27/03 03:07 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Unless the entire Palestinian people were in those camps, it couldn't be genocide

Eh? Where did you get that from? It was an act of genocide. Just like the holocaust was an act of genocide against the jews. You don't have to kill every single jew for it to be an act of genocide.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855332 - 08/27/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

They intended to kill all the Jews, but had some other pressing issues to attend to.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855336 - 08/27/03 03:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Please note the highlighted word.


gen?o?cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.



Quote:

It's a little easier to resolve that slaughtering and raping hundreds of civilians simply because they're palestinian is an act of genocide tho



I've never seen a definition of genocide that included the word rape. Perhaps you could provide a link that does so?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855510 - 08/27/03 04:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Do you understand the difference between an act of genocide and genocide?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1855538 - 08/27/03 04:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sure do. Even had they completely wiped those two camps out it still wouldn't qualify. And rape still doesn't fit the definition.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1855770 - 08/27/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

shakta said:
Your opinion that if the Israelis lay down their weapons there will be peace is ridiculous.

luvdemshrooms said:
Turning the other cheeks just ensures bruises on both sides of your face.


How do you guys know this??? We know that attacking Palestinian targets generates retaliatory attacks against Israeli civilians. So why not try peace just once to see if the results are any better? It's not like the results can be any worse!


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1855857 - 08/27/03 05:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

This intifada started as a result of the perceived insult of Ariel Sharon setting foot on the temple mount, not because of any strike by Israel. Arafat felt his power slipping, so he scraped around for a pretext to launch an attack.

Leaving them alone is not an option.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1855891 - 08/27/03 05:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
This intifada started as a result of the perceived insult of Ariel Sharon setting foot on the temple mount, not because of any strike by Israel. Arafat felt his power slipping, so he scraped around for a pretext to launch an attack.

Leaving them alone is not an option. 


Do you mean Israel leaving Palesting alone is not an option, or the other way around???  :confused:

Either way, why do you say it's not an option? 


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856114 - 08/27/03 07:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Too many Arabs object to the existence of Israel. When someone devotes their life to killing you, you don't have the option of simply leaving them alone.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1856461 - 08/27/03 08:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

But surely Hamas accounts for a very small proportion of the Palestinian population? Do you seriously think a majority of Palestinians really want to drive the Jews into the sea?

no, hamas certainly doesn't represent the sentiments of most palestinians. this is why they can be fought and they can be put out of commision. they are small, small enough to get rid of, but big enough to screw up a very difficult peace process.

they are extremist, intolerant, anti-semitic thugs who preach hatred and genocide in the name of god. they do not represent the interests of most palestinians and they do not want peace. if they wish to martyr themselves for their cause, so be it. it's just a shame that their palestinian brothers are dying next to them.

the bottom line is that if there are palestinians with legitimate greivances, we should be helping them. a fair resolution to this whole israel\palestine mess is the best that can be done. but there will be a small faction that does not want peace unless it is after the complete annihilation of the enemy. these people cannot be dealt with by any other means but force.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1856574 - 08/27/03 09:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Seems like a lot of people here are in favor of the elimination of Hamas by means of force. Does anyone also support the elimination of the Kach and Kahane Chai organizations by force? They are the Jewish equivalent of Hamas.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856602 - 08/27/03 09:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

i do support the elimination of those orginizations by force, as does the government of israel.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856634 - 08/27/03 09:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Several hundred people that are not blowing up busses, and cafes hardly compare to the three main Palestinian terror groups. If they start doing those things, then yes, I say kill them to.

Here is some new information. Apparently Hammas has rejected Arafat's request to return to the cease fire. Big surprise there.

Quote:

JERUSALEM ? Yasser Arafat (search) asked militant groups Wednesday to halt attacks on Israelis, the Palestinian leader's first public attempt to restore calm following the collapse of the armed groups' unilateral truce.

But a Hamas (search) leader rejected the call, while Israel, which has tried to sideline Arafat from the peace process, dismissed it as empty rhetoric and said the army would keep rounding up terror suspects and hunting down their leaders.

Militants formally abandoned the nearly two-month unilateral cease-fire after Israel responded to a deadly homicide bombing in Jerusalem last week with missile strikes on Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip.

Arafat stepped forward with the appeal at a time when he's caught in a power struggle with his prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas (search), and when the United States is pressing the Palestinians to act against militants, a key requirement under the creaking U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan.

Arafat rejected U.S. demands he give Abbas control of key security forces that would lead any sustained crackdown and instead appointed his own security adviser: the tough former West Bank security chief Jibril Rajoub.

Rajoub openly supports the peace plan and has arrested militants in the past. But in an interview with The Associated Press, he was evasive over whether he would launch a crackdown now, and suggested Israel should stop military action first.

"The ball is now in the American court to pressure Israel and monitor the process of implementation," Rajoub said. "If Israel stops its attacks and begins to take serious steps to end the occupation, all the conditions that are demanded of the Palestinians will be fulfilled on the spot."

In Washington, State Department spokesman Philip Reeker said he did not believe the United States would have a problem with Rajoub working for Abbas.

"What we want is to see all the Palestinian security forces consolidated under Mr. Abbas," Reeker said. "That's the point. It's not the personality."

Abbas staked his political future on being able to rein in Palestinian militants through persuasion, rather than force. With his authority crumbling, Abbas was meeting with Cabinet ministers Wednesday to try to rally support.

Abbas was to present the achievements of his first 100 days in office to parliament Monday, and aides said he was planning to seek a vote of confidence.

Some in Abbas' inner circle have said he is disheartened by the constant internal criticism; senior figures in Fatah have said Abbas has failed to produce tangible achievements in his negotiations with Israel.

Israel has already snubbed Abbas' call to join any new cease-fire, demanding that instead Palestinian security forces clamp down on armed groups and carry out arrests.

But Palestinian leaders say moving against the militants in the wake of the Israeli raids would cost them dearly in terms of public support and could spark civil war.

In his statement Wednesday, Arafat called on armed groups to renew their commitment to a truce and "to give a chance to political and peaceful efforts by the international community to implement the road map."

A Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip rejected new cease-fire talks, saying Israel had shattered the previous ceasefire by killing a senior Hamas leader last Thursday.

"We say it clearly that after the assassination of martyr Ismail Abu Shanab, the truce has been destroyed," Abdel Aziz Al Rantissi told the Dubai-based Al Arabiya satellite channel.

Raanan Gissin, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, said Arafat's statement was meaningless.

"Arafat has never stopped supporting the strategy of terror," Gissin said. "He has over 60 percent of the Palestinian Authority forces under his control and has done nothing with them to pursue a peaceful solution. He has no interest in a peaceful solution."

The U.S. government turned up the heat on Arafat on Tuesday.

"The security forces need to be consolidated under Prime Minister Abbas and Dahlan," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said, referring to Abbas' security chief, Mohammed Dahlan.

"Clearly, by blocking the consolidation ... Arafat undercuts the fight against terrorism and further undermines the hope of the Palestinian people for peace and a Palestinian state."

The armed groups declared June 29 that they were halting attacks on Israel for three months but later changed the terms, saying they had the right to retaliate for Israeli military strikes.

During the cease-fire, the militants carried out three bombings, including last week's Jerusalem bus attack, which killed 21 people. In retaliation, Israel launched the missile strike killing Shanab.

Israel has said every Hamas militant is a potential target for "liquidation."

Hospital sources in the Gaza Strip said a 16-year-old boy had died of shrapnel wounds sustained in a botche strike Tuesday. An elderly store-owner also died.

On Wednesday, Israeli troops detained about a dozen members of a radical PLO faction in Ramallah, where Arafat has his headquarters.

In other developments, an Israeli soldier near a West Bank checkpoint shot and killed a Palestinian man running toward him and brandishing a knife, the army said.




Sounds like the same old bullshit to me. Arafat giving lip service to make Israel look bad, yet he refuses to do anything about Hamas. They had their chance to crack down on them, and did not even try.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1856821 - 08/27/03 09:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

what mushmaster said.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1856828 - 08/27/03 09:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Several hundred people that are not blowing up busses, and cafes hardly compare to the three main Palestinian terror groups. If they start doing those things, then yes, I say kill them to.


Allrighty then, let's start killing 'em!  Actually, most of these terrorist acts were sponsored by the Jewish Government so we should kill them too while we're at it.  I'm being sarcastic, but since killing is the most common conservative answer to resolving crisis, I'm trying to appeal to the conservative mindset here.  :tongue:
Quote:

Sounds like the same old bullshit to me.


Ya, Israel blatantly saying they don't have to honor the cease-fire agreement ("Israel said the army would keep rounding up terror suspects and hunting down their leaders"), then blaming Palestine for not honoring it.  That shit's getting ridiculous, ain't it???
Quote:

They had their chance to crack down on them, and did not even try.


Palestine arrested a LOT more members of Hamas than Israel arrested of the illegal Kach and Kahane Chai organizations (no one).  But now that Isreali is getting involved Palestine is saying they won't do it anymore (it's more back and forth childish games that both sides are guilty of). 


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1856864 - 08/27/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that both sides are guilty of childish games, but I think Israel is done with games. I personally think the kach and Kahane Chai groups are a red herring. They have been illegal for almost ten years and don't appear to be doing anything.

The cease fire was never agreed to by Israel, and the bullshit is Arafat's constant lip service with no action. It has happened time and time again. Choose to ignore it if you want.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1856927 - 08/27/03 10:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with everything you said, except "Israel is done with games". The fact that Israel wouldn't agree to a cease fire is a perfect example.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1857254 - 08/27/03 11:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

they are extremist, intolerant, anti-semitic thugs who preach hatred and genocide in the name of god. they do not represent the interests of most palestinians and they do not want peace.

Remember the man leading the Israeli government was directly responsible for the acts of genocide at Sabra and Shatila.

New York, June 23, 2001) -- A criminal investigation into Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon?s role in the massacre of civilians in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla should be launched, Human Rights Watch urged today. The Israeli leader will meet on Tuesday at the White House with President Bush.


Massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee Camps

?There is abundant evidence that war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed on a wide scale in the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, but to date, not a single individual has been brought to justice. President Bush should urge Prime Minister Sharon to cooperate with any investigation.?
Hanny Megally
Executive Director
Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The call by Human Rights Watch came as Prime Minister Sharon begins a visit to the United States. The Israeli leader?s visit here comes as controversy mounts in Europe over his responsibility for the 1982 killings.

?There is abundant evidence that war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed on a wide scale in the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, but to date, not a single individual has been brought to justice,? said Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch. ?President Bush should urge Prime Minister Sharon to cooperate with any investigation.?

As Defense Minister, Ariel Sharon had overall responsibility over the Israeli Defense Forces and allowed Phalangist militias to enter the camps where they terrorized the residents for three days.

Human Rights Watch said that the United States had a substantial interest in the case because the Israeli occupation of West Beirut followed written U.S. assurances that Palestinians remaining there would be safe, as part of an arrangement that saw the evacuation of Palestine Liberation Organization forces.

The debate in Europe erupted following a BBC documentary on the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, which was aired in the United Kingdom on June 17. The day after, survivors of the massacre lodged a complaint against Sharon in a Belgian court.

During the BBC program, Morris Draper, the U.S. Special Envoy to the Middle East at the time, said that U.S. officials were horrified when told Sharon had allowed Phalange militias into West Beirut and the camps ?because it would be a massacre.? He told the BBC that after the killings began he cabled Defense Minister Sharon, telling him, ?You must stop the slaughter?. The situation is absolutely appalling. They are killing children. You have the field completely under your control and are therefore responsible for that area.?

Details of the massacre: The massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps occurred between September 16 and 18, 1982, after Israel Defense Forces (?IDF?) then occupying Beirut and under Ariel Sharon?s overall command as Israeli Defense Minister permitted members of the Phalange militia into the camps. The precise civilian death toll most likely will never be known. Israeli military intelligence estimated that between 700 and 800 people were killed in Sabra and Shatilla during the sixty-two-hour rampage, while Palestinian and other sources have claimed that the dead numbered up to several thousand. The victims included infants, children, women (including pregnant women), and the elderly, some of whom were mutilated or disemboweled before or after they were killed. Journalists who arrived on the scene immediately after the massacre also saw evidence of the summary execution of young men. To cite only one contemporaneous account, that of Thomas Friedman of the New York Times: ?[M]ostly I saw groups of young men in their twenties and thirties who had been lined up against walls, tied by their hands and feet, and then mowed down gangland-style with fusillades of machine-gun fire.?



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1857479 - 08/28/03 12:38 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sharon is an evil man. Besides a multitude of atrocities against the Palestinian people, he publicly declared that he believes Palestinians should all be forced into Jordan, so that Israel's borders can span from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. I think this is still his goal, even though negative world opinion makes him keep quiet about this issue.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1857906 - 08/28/03 03:41 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Unfortunately the Israelis do not seem capable of simply targeting members of Hamas. They kill innocent bystanders when targeting terrorist suspects, they bulldoze the houses of innocent people, they kill children for throwing stones, they continue to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land and now they erect a fence which encroaches further onto Palestinian land which under international law they are required to return.
By addressing these issues the Israelis would do much more towards putting a stop to groups like Hamas. If they treated the Palestinians with more respect then more respect would be forthcoming. Groups like Hamas would lose all support from moderate Palestinians if they were seen to be attacking the Israelis after they had made SIGNIFICANT concessions towards the Palestinians. The Israelis have to realise that they are simply adding to the problem when they commit these acts of aggression. You yourself quoted the Hamas guy who confirmed this. He welcomes the indiscriminate attacks of the Israeli's because he knows that it strengthens his own posistion.
To me all this seems fairly obvious and Im pretty sure that people like Sharon are fully aware that they are perpetuating the violence. I wonder if Cornholio is right and Sharon and his like are simply concealing their true motives.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1857921 - 08/28/03 04:02 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Allrighty then, let's start killing 'em!  Actually, most of these terrorist acts were sponsored by the Jewish Government so we should kill them too while we're at it.



The site you linked is the Hamas mouthpiece on the web. They never admit that their own bus bombings are acts of terrorism of course, but they are outraged by zionist terrorism, even if it happened 55 years ago. That's a good example of hypocrisy.

Quote:

I'm being sarcastic, but since killing is the most common conservative answer to resolving crisis, I'm trying to appeal to the conservative mindset here.  :tongue:



Well, I'm a libertarian rather than a conservative, and I don't think killing is a good answer to resolving crises, generally speaking. But in some situations killing the terrorists is the only way to take them out of operation. It would still be much better if you could just lock them up without firing a single bullet. But when that is not possible, killing the terrorists is much better than to let them continue their operations.

Look at the Kach and Kahane movements today. They have kept a low profile for the last decade. Part of the reason for this is that the Kach founder, Meir Kahane, was assassinated in 1990, and his son who founded Kahane Chai was killed in 2001. Other members of these zionist terrorist movements have been imprisoned for propaganda and conspiracy activities. So killing and incarceration seems to work when applied to Kach and Kahane. The same method will work on Hamas and Islamic Jihad also, it's just a bigger job.
 


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1857935 - 08/28/03 04:12 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Do you really think that all Palestinians fall into 2 exclusive groups of A) Non-Terrorist B) Terrorist?

Do you think that it is possible to kill all members of group B whilst continuing to steal land and kill members of group A without any of the members of group A becoming members of group B?



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1857965 - 08/28/03 04:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
They never admit that their own bus bombings are acts of terrorism of course, but they are outraged by zionist terrorism, even if it happened 55 years ago. That's a good example of hypocrisy.


I think they admit to it, but call it "payback" (I realize that's what the Israeli's call what they're doing too).  You're certainly right, they don't put their crimes on their own website.  But I doubt you'll find all the negative things about the Bush administration on the White House website either.
Quote:

in some situations killing the terrorists is the only way to take them out of operation. It would still be much better if you could just lock them up without firing a single bullet. But when that is not possible, killing the terrorists is much better than to let them continue their operations.


I find it interesting that no one is EVER willing to considers the "terrorist" point of view.  Now let me make it very clear - we should almost NEVER do something just because a terrorist demands it (unless maybe if they have a nuclear bomb in New York City or something).  But when I read Bin Laden's letter, I said "WTF, we shouldn't be doing any of that shit regardless of what Bin Laden says!  We should stop being assholes because the US is better than that (I hope), not because Bin Laden says to stop it.  And that would kill two birds with one stone - no more evil USA, and no more terrorist acts!  :sun:

In this case, if Hamas truly won't stop the attacks unless Israel is destroyed, then they are unbelievably foolish, because Isreal is 100 times more powerful.  I have a feeling they just want Israel to stop the killings first.  But Israel wants Hamas to stop the killings first.  And then we get into the child's game that never ends.   


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1857967 - 08/28/03 04:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent point Gazz.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858001 - 08/28/03 05:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Whats really sad is that the terrorists are a minority but all media attention is placed upon them and people then generalise their character to all the Palestinian people so when innocent Palestinians are killed or have their homes bulldozed to make way for settlements there is an element of "oh well they are terrorists" in alot of peoples reactions.

Somebody mentioned there is a rave scene out there where muslims and jews party together. I dont know if this is true but if it is surely this would be a good area for media focus? I know this sort of thing happens in Northern Ireland where catholics and protestants will go out raving and not even think about the religions that are supposed to divide them.

Perhaps only time will solve this problem. People like Arafat and Sharon are so set in their ways they will never give ground to each other. Maybe Peace will come slolwy through the next generations?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858264 - 08/28/03 07:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Do you really think that all Palestinians fall into 2 exclusive groups of A) Non-Terrorist B) Terrorist?

Do you think that it is possible to kill all members of group B whilst continuing to steal land and kill members of group A without any of the members of group A becoming members of group B?




Oh Christ. Here we go with the stolen land bullshit. While I agree in the two state concept, this "The Jews stole our land" shit needs to quit being argued, because it is not true. When the Jews started migrating BACK to Palestine in the 1880s they bought up most of the land from absentee land owners and real estate prospectors. The area was sparsely populated, and pretty much worthless. The Jewish presence in the area never ceased of course, but the migration that started in 1880, and lasted until the early years of the new century brought in lots more. The inhabitants that were there where largely nomadic. They roamed from place to place and were very sporadic. The Palestinians claim to all the land that is Israel is a fallacy. Israel has the right to be a sovereign nation, and defend it's borders.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1858281 - 08/28/03 07:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I just sit here wondering if this is the longest thread I have ever read.  It is entertaining as hell!  :laugh:

Some of the zings had me in stitches!

:lol:

Nice job guys (especially the lack of name calling)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1858292 - 08/28/03 08:02 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Der be no zings here mon.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858297 - 08/28/03 08:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Do you really think that all Palestinians fall into 2 exclusive groups of A) Non-Terrorist B) Terrorist?



Yes. A non-terrorist is by definition someone who is not a terrorist.

Quote:

Do you think that it is possible to kill all members of group B whilst continuing to steal land and kill members of group A without any of the members of group A becoming members of group B?



Ah, you are thinking that a person becomes a terrorist if he is mistreated? If that is the primary reason why someone becomes a terrorist, then why does this mechanism currently affect muslims so much more than non-muslims? I think that explanation is insufficient.

There are lots of mistreated people in other parts of the world who don't think it's a good idea to start targeting and murdering civilians. There is an ideological factor involved that can't be ignored: palestinian terrorism has its roots in Al-Ikhwan Al-Moslemoon (Muslim Brotherhood) that was founded in 1928. They have been murdering and carrying out terrorist attacks all over the region for many years, both before and after the 1967 war. The former egyptian president was assassinated by these people, and other branches have been murdering unarmed civilians, tourists, journalists, etc, all over North Africa. Their influence has even reached Indonesia.

Will muslim terrorism go away if Israel cleans up its act and withdraws from the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan? That would be an extremely naive conclusion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Autonomous]
    #1858300 - 08/28/03 08:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
Quite a few came from America (I don't mean as a large percentage of the population though).

** edit: Here's an article about some of them. ***



Nice find. So much for most wanting to live elsewhere.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1858845 - 08/28/03 12:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When the Jews started migrating BACK to Palestine in the 1880s




Many of these were European Jews not Arab jews. Their "right" to be there is based purely on the interpretation of their own religious scriptures.

Anyway that is besides the point. I was talking about the land stolen in 1967. Perhaps they should start with the land they have stolen in the last couple of weeks?



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1858856 - 08/28/03 12:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yes. A non-terrorist is by definition someone who is not a terrorist.




I forgot to say MUTUALLY EXCLUSVE sorry.

So you think that none of group A will ever become members of group B? Interesting. You make vague references to other areas of the world to support this claim but we are talking about Palestine which in many ways is unique.

Can you give me another example of a people who have more and more of their land stolen on a regular basis, who see their children killed by soldiers, who see their houses bulldozed to make more room for their oppressors?

Also, the leaders of Hamas have said they welcome Israeli aggression as it helps to swell their ranks.

You are very intelligent Rhizoid of that there is no doubt but how you can possibly think this conflict will be ended through more bloodshed is beyond me. The highest form of intelligence is love.



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858867 - 08/28/03 12:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree they need to abandon the settlements. As far as the European Jews go, you are wrong. The majority of them bought their land. You know why this argument pisses me off so much? Arafat had a chance to get almost all of the land, $30 billion, and statehood. He was urged by the Saudis to take the deal, and instead he decided to walk away without even offering a counterproposal and start up the terrorist attacks. Yet none of you seem to remember that. I believe the blood of every Israeli and Palestinian death since then is on his hands.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859032 - 08/28/03 01:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As far as the European Jews go, you are wrong.




They may well have bought the land as you say but I bet its not quite as simple and clearcut as that! I think around 500 Palestinian villages were "moved" around 1948 in order to let the Jews in.

As for Arafat, I would be interested to know his reasons for not accepting the deal. Im having a look around on google but I havent found much yet. I dont defend Arafat, I think he is holding onto the past too much and his own ego to be of any real use in the peace process. I feel exactly the same way about Sharon too.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1859201 - 08/28/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I have seen some defenses of Arafat running away from the table, and they were ridiculous to say the least. Look the Saudis told him to take the deal. They have no love lost for the Israelis, and they thought it was the best deal he was likely to ever get. I would argue he is the reason Sharon is in power. Baruk(sp?) was a much more gentle type of person. He was doing well until Arafat walked away and started a war. The Israelis elected Sharon as a response to the terrorist attacks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859209 - 08/28/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Arafat had a chance to get almost all of the land, $30 billion, and statehood

When was this? The 1993 deal Arafat accepted was such an utter defeat for the palestinians I was amazed he could even contemplate such complete and total surrender.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1859216 - 08/28/03 02:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Huh? You don't know what you are talking about.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859241 - 08/28/03 02:12 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Barak, Ehud Barak


Yes, he should have taken the deal.

America should have sweetened the pot with another $30 billion of our own. The UK should chip in some as well.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859244 - 08/28/03 02:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Is the 1993 agreement the one you were talking about?  :lol:

Read up a little on what that actually consisted of and how the vast majority of palestinians saw it. I read it described by a UK journalist as "Confronted by an experienced Israeli negotiating team in Oslo in 1993, he allowed his representatives to accept what might just be the most tragic, hopeless "peace" in modern Middle East history"

Sheer despair at the perceived injustice of the Oslo agreement--a treaty that seemed certain to cheat them of a capital in East Jerusalem, a return of refugees and an end to massive Jewish settlements on occupied land--simply overwhelmed the clich?s about the "peace process" and the need to put Oslo "back on track."

If the new intifada proves one thing, it is that Oslo is dead. Palestinians no longer speak of it in the present tense. They talk only of UN Security Council Resolution 242, the original foundation of the Oslo agreement--steadily whittled away by Israeli and US negotiators--as a possible settlement. That 1967 resolution, so rarely mentioned now by State Department officials, calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territory captured in the 1967 Six-Day War in return for the security of all states (including Israel) in the area. It also insists on the illegality of the acquisition of land through war. And 242, as far as the Palestinians are concerned, means a return to the 1967 borders of Israel. No more occupation of the West Bank or Gaza (or the Golan Heights) or of East Jerusalem, illegally annexed by Israel.

This, of course, has never been on offer to the Arabs--even though then-Secretary of State James Baker said, in private letters to Arab leaders in 1991, that it would form the basis of a Middle East peace. But if the Palestinians hold out, if they refuse to return to the poisoned Oslo negotiating table, the world--or so they pathetically hope--will ask why 242 cannot be implemented, just as other nations (Iraq and Serbia come to mind) are expected to abide by Security Council resolutions.

http://home.mindspring.com/~fontenelles/fisk11-20-00.htm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1859286 - 08/28/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think the offer was a good one, as did most of the world at the time. He didn't come back with a counter proposal at all. He just walked away. Here is what it boils down to. Arafat has no interest in a two state settlement. He can give it all the lip service he wants, but he is lying. His failure to return with a different proposal proves that. He wants Israel to cease to exist just like Hammas and most Arabs do.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859308 - 08/28/03 02:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think you'll find most palestinians think arafat sold them out to the US and Israel a long time ago. Certainly hard not to agree considering the craven and complete surrender he was willing to accept in 1993.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1859318 - 08/28/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

He didn't accept it. He walked away from the negotiations and started the intifada.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859370 - 08/28/03 02:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Why should he accept that agreement, it didn't even include the self extermination of the Jews.

I think that's what he's holding out for, for every Jew to commit suicide, and $30 billion dollars.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1859393 - 08/28/03 02:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lets assume for a monment you are right about Arafat. Im not saying you are btw! but if you are, so what? Does that act validate your arguement that the only way to find peace is for the Israelis to keep killing Palestinians?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1859467 - 08/28/03 02:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes it does. Arafat will never do anything about Hamas. As long as Hamas and other groups like it are around their will never be peace unless the Israelis are all killed, or the terror groups are all killed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1860393 - 08/28/03 07:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Terrorism is like the Hydra. If you cut off it's head, it will grow two in its place. Killing people to stop terrorism just makes more people resort to terrorism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1860439 - 08/28/03 08:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Terrorism is like the Hydra. If you cut off it's head, it will grow two in its place. Killing people to stop terrorism just makes more people resort to terrorism.


Exactly. It's not like people are born terrorists. Terrorists are people that are really pissed off about something, and pissing more people off creates more terrorists.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1861195 - 08/28/03 11:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

As long as Hamas and other groups like it are around their will never be peace unless the Israelis are all killed, or the terror groups are all killed.

I remember this being said all the time about the IRA - that turned out to be a complete load of horseshit.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1861722 - 08/29/03 02:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Terrorism is like the Hydra. If you cut off it's head, it will grow two in its place. Killing people to stop terrorism just makes more people resort to terrorism.



I've heard this said so many times, and that's exactly what the terrorists want people to believe. But is it really true? The 1970's communist terrorism in Germany and Italy was stopped by hunting down and killing or imprisoning the terrorists. The group "Sendero Luminoso" in Peru has been essentially destroyed by force. The PKK terror group in Kurdistan stopped all militant activities after their top leader was captured by Turkish police. The zionist terrorist groups Kach and Kahane Chai have already been mentioned, and they were also stopped by force. And the group called Egyptian Islamic Jihad has been considerably weakened by police operations.

There is no guarantee that the terror stops just because the terrorists get what they want. The Khmer Rouge is an example of the opposite. Their terror didn't stop until they were removed from power by force.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1861773 - 08/29/03 03:58 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Nice post.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1861957 - 08/29/03 07:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862116 - 08/29/03 08:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Arafat and his predecessors have been doing this for years. They use terrorism to intimidate people. It makes you think, "Hey, these people are irrational, so we need to try to work something out, even though we know they are wrong. We will give them more than they deserve just to pacify them." It has been happening for 100 years. Every time Arafat or his predecessors are not getting exactly what they want they use terrorism, and are rewarded for it.

This argument that killing them will make more terrorists is not a good one for a couple of reasons IMO. First of all, what is the alternative? You try to reason with them yet again, nothing happens, and you get attacked again. This has been happening for years now. At some point you have to say, enough is enough, and stamp them out.

Sure more people will join with them. You just have to kill them as well. It is the only response that is successful against these kinds of terrorists. At some point the remaining people will see that this is not a winning proposition and decide to try other more peaceful means to resolve the conflict. Alex, I appreciate your analogy, but there is a difference here I believe. The hatred for the Jew is institutionalized, and a part of the Arab culture. It has not always been this way, contrary to popular belief. The problem is their REAL goal is the elimination of the Jew from the region completely. They are rejectionists. Arafat is most definately a rejectionist. They have constantly rejected the two state model for the last century, even when they were offered way more than they should have been.

Someone brought up the fact that Sharon has said the Palestinians should live in Jordan, and how evil it is for him to say that. I can see his point though. Transjordan, now known as Jordan was formed out of the majority of Palestine after it was taken from the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Thousands of Jews that had lived there for centuries were either kicked out, or forced to live as a second class of non-citizens. This happened all over the Arab world actually. The rest of the land was supposed to be split up between the palestinian arabs and the Jews for their national homeland that everyone, except the arabs, knew they needed and deserved. The Jews were the majority in the areas they were to be 'given'. They of course owned most of the land anyway. It was international law at that point. The part of this that people like Sharon disagree with is the fact that Jordan was a vast land, yet it had a very small population compared to what was left of Palestine to be split up between the two parties.

The Jews have been mistreated by the Arabs for a century. Here is one example. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini who was put in charge of the remainder of Palestine by the British was a brutal racist. The Brits thought they could control him, but they were wrong. He routinely called on the Arab population to kill jews in the streets, and was able to convince Britian to severely limit the number of Jews that could escape the torment they were receiving in Europe. He was also a 'friend' of Hitler's and agreed with the final solution to the Jewish problem. He actually planned to set up a death camp similar to Aushwitz in Palestine. Thankfully he was never able to do this. He was a war criminal after WW2, and he was given asylum by the Egyptians. This guy is Arafat's 'uncle' and is considered a national hero by the Palestinians. Check out this link for a bit more info.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862212 - 08/29/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That's a very informative post. But I don't know who thinks Palestine should get more than they deserve, or who feels they should be rewarded for terrorism. That's kind of a silly statement, really. I think people who side with Palestine simply think they're not getting their fair share. And while I don't condone their attacks on Israel, their attacks are always in response to Israeli attacks, which are always in response to Palestinian attacks, which are always in response to....


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862288 - 08/29/03 09:38 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I am trying to point out the bias against Israel that is so prevalent. Your argument that their attacks are always in response to Israeli attacks is simply not true. The current intifada was started after Arafat walked away from the peace process. I am not saying that they are currently offering them more than they deserve, but they have in the past and it was still rejected. They have always wanted the Jews out of Palestine. I am also trying to illustrate how they have always used terrorism as a tool to get what they want. The reason this works for them, is a racist precept that they can not be dealt with on any normal level, so they must be given in to. The British did it repeatedly knowing full well that the Arabs were in the wrong.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862315 - 08/29/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Alex, I appreciate your analogy, but there is a difference here I believe. The hatred for the Jew is institutionalized

Maybe so. I find it hard to think it could be much worse than the sectarian hatred between the religious factions in Ireland tho. That was solved by simple talking - all the internment and shoot to kill policies were miserable failures. I was brought up with constant IRA civilian bombings and the british army responding by shooting terrorists. None of it ever did a blind bit of good.

I tend to think if you can solve Ireland by talking and a bit of give and take you can solve pretty much anything.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862320 - 08/29/03 09:58 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think people who side with Palestine simply think they're not getting their fair share. And while I don't condone their attacks on Israel, their attacks are always in response to Israeli attacks, which are always in response to Palestinian attacks, which are always in response to....



Was there ever a terrorist mass murder that was not a "response" to something according to the terrorists?

When Timothy McVeigh targeted and murdered 168 innocent people (including 19 children) in 1995, his motive was a "response" to the U.S. government's incompetence in the catastrophe at Waco in 1993. The PLO and Hamas are no different from McVeigh in their ingenuity when rationalizing their murdering.

And for the record, yes, I agree that the palestinian people are not getting their fair share. And I think the chances of correcting that will be much higher after the leadership of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, etc, have been liquidated or put in prison.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1862343 - 08/29/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

And for the record, yes, I agree that the palestinian people are not getting their fair share. And I think the chances of correcting that will be much higher after the leadership of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, etc, have been liquidated or put in prison.

Tried doing this to the IRA for decades. Never worked.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862355 - 08/29/03 10:15 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

the actions of the israeli government do not justify the indescriminate killing of innocent israeli citizens... just as the antics of a few fundamentalist nutcases don't justify the oppression of arabs in israel.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1862362 - 08/29/03 10:21 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lifes not always that simple is it. If you lived in palestine and saw your loved ones killed by Israeli tanks I presume you would say "I cannot justify any retaliation, god bless the jews".

Unfortunately not all people have your powers of forgiveness.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862385 - 08/29/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lifes not always that simple is it. If you lived in palestine and saw your loved ones killed by Israeli tanks I presume you would say "I cannot justify any retaliation, god bless the jews".

Unfortunately not all people have your powers of forgiveness.

do you think that palestinian terrorists are justified in blowing up busses full of israeli civilians?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1862397 - 08/29/03 10:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

:rolleyes:

Read my post again.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862414 - 08/29/03 10:47 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

i read it alex. i can read you know. my comprehension is pretty good too...

it's impossible to tell what your position is from what you wrote.

how about instead of being a smartass, could you just tell me what you think?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1862424 - 08/29/03 10:50 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It's perfectly possible to tell my position from what I wrote. Give it another try.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862428 - 08/29/03 10:52 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Alex is just like most other liberals. They pile the blame on the Israelis while, ignoring the wrong doing of the Palestinians.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862436 - 08/29/03 10:54 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Nope, I wish you'd actually refer to someone who actually exists rather than this mythical "libbie" hate figure you've got stored in your brain shouting at you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862439 - 08/29/03 10:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Whatever Alex. You consitantly rail against the Israelis as do most liberals all over the world. For some reason Israel is held to a higher standard of criticism than everyone else in the world.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862445 - 08/29/03 11:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Completely the opposite actually. Israel has broken and defied scores more UN resolutions than Iraq ever did.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862451 - 08/29/03 11:04 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

it could be either...

1. it's not right that they're doing what they're doing, but they're under some serious duress and i can see where they're coming from.

or

2. the israelis are doing them so bad that it's ok that they're retaliating against them in this way.

now... i'm gonna guess #1 is what you're thinking. it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it any better than when the israelis come in and bulldoze settlements, enforce curfews, and rocket streets. after all, the israelis are being pushed the same way. "they killed our people so now we'll kill their people" cannot be seen as a reasonable apology if this is to go anywhere good.

back to the earlier topic of this thread...

what do you think would be the ideal arrangement for palestine\israel?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862540 - 08/29/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Alex is just like most other liberals. They pile the blame on the Israelis while, ignoring the wrong doing of the Palestinians.


I think that's a big misperception. Liberals are well aware of the wrong doings of both sides. But since conservatives generally don't disagree with all the bad things Palestinians have done, liberals tend to focus more on the negative things Israel has done, giving the false impression we favor Palestine.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1862565 - 08/29/03 12:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The 1970's communist terrorism in Germany and Italy was stopped by hunting down and killing or imprisoning the terrorists.




Irrelevant. We are talking about Palestine.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862570 - 08/29/03 12:02 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The current intifada was started after Arafat walked away from the peace process.




Wrong. The current intifada was started when Sharon entered a holy Mosque. An act he knew full well would incite the Palestinians.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1862573 - 08/29/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

i stress again that there are groups of palestinian terrorists over there who will not stop their killing until israel ceases to exist.

how can such groups be dealt with peacefully?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862576 - 08/29/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

For some reason Israel is held to a higher standard of criticism than everyone else in the world.





Perhaps that is because they like to align themselves with the West. Can you imagine the outrage if we started using the sort of tactics they employ against the Palestinians in Northern Ireland?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1862581 - 08/29/03 12:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Wrong. The current intifada was started when Sharon entered a holy Mosque. An act he knew full well would incite the Palestinians.

you speak as though a non-muslim entering a muslim holy place is just cause for a campaign of murdering innocent civilian.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1862586 - 08/29/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Tried doing this to the IRA for decades. Never worked.



Yes, well that's only because the job was never done right. Maybe the british were too proud to ask for outside help? I'm sure that the IRA would have been more quickly marginalized if the Irish government had done the right thing and banned Sinn Fein years ago, and if the U.S. had confiscated all resources of the "Noraid" organization that funded the IRA, and put its leaders in jail or had them shot.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1862605 - 08/29/03 12:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Wrong. The current intifada was started when Sharon entered a holy Mosque. An act he knew full well would incite the Palestinians.




The temple mount is a holy site for both Arabs and Jews.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862614 - 08/29/03 12:18 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Too bad more don't remember that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1862630 - 08/29/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps if Israel were able to precisely locate and kill ONLY proven Hamas members whilst at the same time removing the settlements etc they might stand a very slim chance of making peace by killing the terrorists. However its clear that they are either unable or unwilling to follow this course of action.

However, if they were to firmly adhere to the peace process, even in the face of further Hamas attacks, if they didnt automatically strike back and kill INNOCENTS. They would achieve 2 things, firstly they wouldnt create anymore terrorists and secondly they would decrease the motivation of Hamas to make further strikes thus providing more safety for their own people. Everytime Israel launch attacks on Palestine they are signing the death warrants of their own citizens. I know Hamas need to be stopped but they thrive on the aggression of Israel. It is what keeps them going. Now I know they say they want to drive Israel into the sea but that is obviously never going to happen, the best they can muster is suicide bombing and although horrific it will never bring Israel to it knees. Never.
Hamas called a ceasefire, Im pretty sure if Israel hadnt launched the attack on the 2 Hamas members which injured more innocent Palestinians, if they hadnt continued bulldozing houses to make way for this fence which is encroaching further onto Palsestinian land then the ceasefire may well have still been in place now. Obviously we will never know.
Last year I attended a talk on this issue. You would be surprised how many Israelis agree that their government should stop the attacks, stop the settlements etc. They know it could be their death warrant which is being signed.
It is a circle of violence. I dont see how more violence will break the circle.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1862714 - 08/29/03 12:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

However, if they were to firmly adhere to the peace process, even in the face of further Hamas attacks, if they didnt automatically strike back and kill INNOCENTS. They would achieve 2 things, firstly they wouldnt create anymore terrorists and secondly they would decrease the motivation of Hamas to make further strikes thus providing more safety for their own people.



I'm 100% for this policy GazzBut, that Israel should stop killing and harming innocents. Every such action should be condemned by the world community, not because it supposedly stops further Hamas attacks (I don't believe it does -- the terrorists will always find excuses for new murders) but simply because it's wrong.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1862778 - 08/29/03 01:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I agree. My only question is how to get the Hamas guys without innocents being killed occasionally.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1862804 - 08/29/03 01:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure that the IRA would have been more quickly marginalized if the Irish government had done the right thing and banned Sinn Fein years ago, and if the U.S. had confiscated all resources of the "Noraid" organization that funded the IRA, and put its leaders in jail or had them shot.

We tried putting all the leaders in jail in the early 70's. It was called internment. Just made the IRA stronger and more dangerous than ever.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1862813 - 08/29/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i stress again that there are groups of palestinian terrorists over there who will not stop their killing until israel ceases to exist.

how can such groups be dealt with peacefully?


If that's a true statement, then I would agree that rounding them up/killing them is the only solution. But I have a hard time believing Palestinians think Israel might actually cease to exist. I'm certain it's something many hope for, but not something they would kill for (because they know it would never happen). I think they have other motives for killing, such as revenge over the death of a loved one, etc.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1862961 - 08/29/03 02:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I dont think that non-agression on the part of the Israeli's would stop Hamas attacks overnight but I think you would see a massive change in the opinions of your average Palestinian if they continued these attacks against an Israel who was seen to be making a real effort to achieve peace with the Paslestinian population at large rather than waging a war against a small minority of them which in turn affects the majority. Non-aggression is the hardest course of action to take but to me non-violence is the only logical way a circle of violence can be broken. And who knows how the Palestinian extremists would react to a truly peaceful Israel?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1862968 - 08/29/03 02:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Israel was not attacking them when they started the current intifada. I know I keep saying this over and over. Sorry. I just don't see a peaceful solution. Especially since Abbas is fixing to be out, and Arafat will reclaim all the authority for himself again. The Israelis don't want to deal with Arafat because of their experience with him in the past.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1862991 - 08/29/03 02:18 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Dont have to apologise for repeating yourself! I do it all the time  :grin:

But are you sure Israel werent putting in any new settlements and werent bulldozing houses to make room for their settlements before the current intifada? If they were I would classify it as an attack. How would you classiy it if someone bulldozed down your house to make room for theirs? 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1863096 - 08/29/03 02:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i stress again that there are groups of palestinian terrorists over there who will not stop their killing until israel ceases to exist.

how can such groups be dealt with peacefully?




Would you consider lethal injection violent?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1863107 - 08/29/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You have to catch them alive first.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863112 - 08/29/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

We could try putting 70 virgins in a live trap.



--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1863118 - 08/29/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

:laugh:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863144 - 08/29/03 03:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think I need to test the trap with the virgins first.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: ]
    #1863247 - 08/29/03 03:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i stress again that there are groups of palestinian terrorists over there who will not stop their killing until israel ceases to exist.

how can such groups be dealt with peacefully?



By helping to improve the lives of the Palestinian people, so that support for such groups will go down.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1863249 - 08/29/03 04:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The life of the average Palestinian was the best it had been in decades when the intifada started.

It's plummetted since many can no longer go to work in Israel.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863255 - 08/29/03 04:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

But just how good was it when it was at this all time high for Palestinians? I bet it fell a long way short of what we would define as acceptable circumstances to exist in.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863265 - 08/29/03 04:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

it was on it's way up. now it's in the toilet.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863278 - 08/29/03 04:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Your point is that the Palestinians havent done all they could to help themselves - I agree.

Do you also think the Israeli's are blameless and have done everything in their power to promote peace with the Palestinians? If you do then I have to say I disagree.

Either way looking to the past to apportion blame does little to find a solution to the problem now.



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863285 - 08/29/03 04:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sayign it was their relationship with Israel that was lifting their economic situation. They killed the golden goose when they started the intifada.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863297 - 08/29/03 04:18 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I think you are stretching the bounds of reality somewhat to suggest that Ariel Sharon could in anyway be viewed as the Palestinian's golden goose.

Vulture maybe..golden goose? get outta here!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863308 - 08/29/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sharon was not in power when they started the intifada. He was retired. The intifada propelled him into office when Barak was seen as unable to deal with the attacks.

Israel was the greatest source of employment and trade for Palestinians.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863344 - 08/29/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yep. It is not the first time this has happened either. During the first Aliyah, the local arabs lives were improved DRASTICALLY by the arrival of the Jews. The infany mortality rate was sky high, as well as illness in general, mainly from Malaria. The Jews came home, and drained the malaria filled swamps they purchased, and made them into orange orchards. The did this type of thing with most of the land which was pretty much worthless before then. These types of things provided lots of work for the local Arabs. The Jews also setup a hospital system, and basically an entire national infrasctructure long before they were ever 'given' a homeland. Again, all this benefited the local Arabs greatly. They then threw it all away, just like in this case.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1863348 - 08/29/03 04:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, my mistake. Interesting though that the intifada propelled Sharon into power. Seeing as how it was Sharon's actions that provoked the intifada in the first place...


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863375 - 08/29/03 04:47 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You make it sound like the Jews returning was the best thing that ever happened to the arabs!

Happy homecoming?

Edit: from the link"April 9, 1948 A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children.Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul. "

I think this is one of the main incidents Hamas cite as a motivation for their actions. They should let it go but it does make your statement seem a little hollow doesnt it?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (08/29/03 04:51 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863382 - 08/29/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Read this.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php

Quote:

What started the al-Aqsa intifada in September 2000?
In July of 2000, Yasser Arafat walked out of the Camp David peace talks and began plans for the armed struggle to resume. On September 27, 2000 an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction after the explosion of a roadside bomb. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart. Also on September 28, 2000, Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This visit became the pretext for instigating large scale demonstrations, the start of the al-Aqsa infifada.

Sharon did not attempt to enter any mosques during his 34 minute visit to the Temple Mount, Judaism?s holiest place, which Muslims have renamed Haram al-Sharif. His visit was conducted during normal hours when the area is open to tourists. Palestinian youths ? eventually numbering around 1,500 ? shouted slogans in an attempt to inflame the situation. Some 1,500 Israeli police were present at the scene to forestall violence.

There were limited disturbances during Sharon's visit, mostly involving stone throwing. During the remainder of the day, outbreaks of stone throwing continued on the Temple Mount and in the vicinity, leaving 28 Israeli policemen injured, three of whom were hospitalized. There are no accounts of Palestinian injuries on that day. Significant and orchestrated violence was initiated by Palestinians the following day after Friday prayers.

In a revealing interview with the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat (September 29, 2001), Marwan Barghouti, head of the Tanzim, admitted his critical role in igniting the October 2000 intifada in both the West Bank and Gaza, as well as among the Israeli Arabs:

I knew that the end of September was the last period (of time) before the explosion, but when Sharon reached the al-Aqsa Mosque, this was the most appropriate moment for the outbreak of the intifada....The night prior to Sharon's visit, I participated in a panel on a local television station and I seized the opportunity to call on the public to go to the al-Aqsa Mosque in the morning, for it was not possible that Sharon would reach al-Haram al-Sharif just so, and walk away peacefully. I finished and went to al-Aqsa in the morning....We tried to create clashes without success because of the differences of opinion that emerged with others in the al-Aqsa compound at the time....After Sharon left, I remained for two hours in the presence of other people, we discussed the manner of response and how it was possible to react in all the cities (bilad) and not just in Jerusalem. We contacted all (the Palestinian) factions.
In the evening of the same day, Barghouti traveled to the Arab Triangle inside Israel where he was to participate in a conference. He confessed:

While we were in the car on the way to the Triangle, I prepared a leaflet in the name of the Higher Committee of Fatah, coordinated with the brothers (e.g., Hamas), in which we called for a reaction to what happened in Jerusalem.
Imad Falouji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, said at a rally in Lebanon on March 3, 2001,
that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." He said:

Whoever thinks that this [war] started as a result of Sharon's despicable visit to Al Aksa is in error. It was planned since Arafat's return from Camp David [where he] firmly stood up to Clinton and rejected the U.S. terms.
The intifada has little to do with Sharon's visit, and everything to do with the Palistinian Arabs' political agenda.Sakhr Habash, a member of the Fatah's Central Committee, gave an interview to the Palestinian Authority newspapger, including this comment on the outbreak:

[The Intifada] did not break out in order to improve our bargaining ability in the negotiations, nor as a reaction to Sharon's provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif: this was only the spark. It was accumulated in the depths of our people and was bound to explode in the face of Barak's government because of the political problem that was put off for more than a year and a half -- the problem of independence.
On September 29, Palestinian Arabs staged large demonstrations and threw stones at police at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Police used rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition to disperse the demonstrators, killing 4 persons and injuring approximately 200.

Palestinians began violent demonstrations against IDF soldiers, settlers, and other Israeli civilians throughout the occupied territories; these demonstrations and ensuing clashes are known to Palestinian Arabs and many Israelis as the "al-Aqsa intifada".

From the beginning, in September 2000, the al-Aqsa intifada developed into the worst period of violence in Israel's history, excepting only the periods of all-out war with neighboring Arab countries.




So Sharon, visiting the most holy Jewish site started the infitada. The Palestinians deny this. Either way it is total bullshit. The temple mount has been a holy site to both groups for a long time. I believe it has been for the Jews for longer though.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863389 - 08/29/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
You make it sound like the Jews returning was the best thing that ever happened to the arabs!

Happy homecoming?

Edit: from the link"April 9, 1948 A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children.Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul. "

I think this is one of the main incidents Hamas cite as a motivation for their actions. They should let it go but it does make your statement seem a little hollow doesnt it?




No it doesn't at all. That was during the war, after the grand mufti planned with Hitler to kill all the Jews. They were a bit pissed I am sure. The period of time I was talking about was during the first Aliyah from 1880-1903. Arabs and Jews lived side by side peacefully back then. Things went to hell when the Arabs picked the wrong side in WW1, and lost. The same thing happened again in WW2.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863398 - 08/29/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1863402 - 08/29/03 05:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Cheers, Im not really familiar with that period of time. Just done a quick google but all of the sources seem to come from pro-israeli sources. Interesting stuff though.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863410 - 08/29/03 05:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You've got to admit though the list of Jewish terrorism I supplied doesnt make very nice reading.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863430 - 08/29/03 05:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No it doesn't. Terrorism is wrong no matter what. Of course the Jewish terrorist of the times represented a small minority of the Jews in the area. Can the same be said for Palestinians? I would hope so. Polls usually show that they are very sympathetic to the likes of Hamas.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1863436 - 08/29/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The excuse for starting the intifada was the insult of Sharon setting foot on the temple mount. If that's all it took, then they were scraping for a pretext.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1864664 - 08/30/03 01:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

April 9, 1948 A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children.Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul. "

Perhaps wingnutx will tell us they were near a SAMS battery?  :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: shakta]
    #1864732 - 08/30/03 01:26 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

And they will continue to be sympathetic if the Israelis continue to kill innocent Palestinians etc...

But if the Israelis were truly peaceful it would be interesting to see how that might change.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1864740 - 08/30/03 01:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

That was mereley the incident that enflamed the situation. And as for scraping for pretexts how about "I know he has weapons of mass destruction. He is a danger to the entire world...."


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1864742 - 08/30/03 01:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps wingnutx will tell us they were near a SAMS battery?




Or perhaps they were throwing some really big rocks that day?!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1865462 - 08/30/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for changing the subject. If that is true, then those who did it should be in jail.

That has no bearing on what Gaz and I were talking about.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Israel to liquidate Hamas. [Re: wingnutx]
    #1865507 - 08/30/03 11:04 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Lighten up.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Premium Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Palestinian textbooks brainwash children to kill
( 1 2 3 all )
Ed1 5,733 44 11/10/04 08:40 PM
by ricyjo
* Israel-US Approved Ethnic Cleansing
( 1 2 all )
headphone 4,653 20 09/03/01 08:05 PM
by zetek
* Abbas Vows to Protect Palestinian Gunmen RandalFlagg 1,483 17 01/04/05 10:33 PM
by mabus
* PROOF ISRAEL IS KILLING PALESTINEAN CHILDREN!!!
( 1 2 3 all )
Teiro 6,293 51 10/29/02 10:16 AM
by Innvertigo
* Anti-Israel Propaganda, take the quiz
( 1 2 all )
Luddite 4,269 27 09/23/06 05:00 PM
by Redstorm
* Israel plans Palestinian border changes GazzBut 1,095 10 02/10/06 03:27 PM
by gluke bastid
* Scumbag Palestinians (A non-bigoted title)
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
luvdemshrooms 6,246 116 06/21/03 12:46 AM
by Xlea321
* Deadly demand from Hamas Ellis Dee 549 1 08/08/02 09:04 PM
by LaCasta

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
13,760 topic views. 3 members, 2 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.083 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 12 queries.