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examining beliefs
    #8156575 -

Do we discard belief only when it begins causing us suffering?

It seems to me that suffering is what causes us to re-examine a subconscious (unconscious?) belief.

Any other excuse we have for doing this work is a belief rooted in delusion.

There are two paths to clarity according to Kabbalistic doctrine - suffering, and faith. Suffering causes us to examine our beliefs to understand why there is a separation between ourselves and reality. Faith bridges the separation through a kind of suspension of any belief at all. The second is much tricker IMO because one can easily confuse believing in faith with actually practicing faith.

The scientific method is more practical.


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Edited by EternalCowabunga (03/17/08 09:45 AM)

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #8156602 -

Of course it's a lot more complicated than that.


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Re: examining beliefs [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #8156769 -

I've been discarding beliefs right and left purely because they are bullshit in retrospect.


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Re: examining beliefs [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8156920 -

backfromthedead said:
I've been discarding beliefs right and left purely because they are bullshit in retrospect.


Yes. One can make a habit of questioning beliefs periodically, even when there's no emotional cue for it.

For example, every time I type or say "I believe this or that" or when I make a sweeping aphorism, a little red flag goes off which says "Do I really believe that? Why?"

Sometimes I'm too wrapped up in emotion or ego and I don't bother or it doesn't occur to me, but plenty of times I have stopped myself and dismantled standing beliefs.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #8156950 -

EternalCowabunga said:
Do we discard belief only when it begins causing us suffering?

It seems to me that suffering is what causes us to re-examine a subconscious (unconscious?) belief.

Any other excuse we have for doing this work is a belief rooted in delusion.

There are two paths to clarity according to Kabbalistic doctrine - suffering, and faith. Suffering causes us to examine our beliefs to understand why there is a separation between ourselves and reality. Faith bridges the separation through a kind of suspension of any belief at all. The second is much tricker IMO because one can easily confuse believing in faith with actually practicing faith.

The scientific method is more practical.


I think that's true.

As to our ability to suspend "any belief at all" that is only a relative truth IMO. We always have some core belief that we opperate from. The more flexibility one has in regards to beliefs the more expensive their experience.

The scientific method is not only more practical but more difficult. That's why it isn't often used or used well.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Icelander]
    #8157141 -

I'm trying hard to think about what my personal beliefs are and how they effect my reality.

I believe that we are all one, in that the only differences between us are insubstantial veils comprised of conditioning. As such I believe that we all deserve the same love, attention, communication, dignity, and respect.

I do not believe I know anything about the reality of any experience, or the reality of other beings. Right now I feel like a human being separated from billions of other human beings by time and space, on a planet in orbit in one particular solar system in one particular galaxy. I don't believe any of this though, because I could be dreaming all this up.

Life, for me, is a constant process of convincing myself that there is something worth living for, when in fact there is no such thing. It's not that it is not worth living per se, but there is nothing out there that is worth living for. I believe that the highest goal of my own personal experience is immersion in the here and now, transcending all concepts of self and other, and learning to identify with whatever part of me is beyond the continual wheel of suffering that is my birth, life, and death as a human.

backfromthedead, you could elaborate as to the nature of the beliefs you've been discarding? How did you come to recognize them as bullshit, and what if anything have you replaced them with?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #8157173 -

EternalCowabunga said:
Do we discard belief only when it begins causing us suffering? It seems to me that suffering is what causes us to re-examine a subconscious (unconscious?) belief.


suffering promotes us to look within and observe/be aware of our mental/emotional blocks and to find the root or cause. beliefs may not necessarily be discarded, rather seen for what they are with a heightened state of awareness. awareness is like fire that burns through attachment to belief and sets us free from them. this can be induced through many means, not just suffering. long hikes in nature whilst doing a walking meditation is a good one.

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Lion]
    #8157194 -

As such I believe that we all deserve the same love, attention, communication, dignity, and respect.


here's a belife you might consider discarding.

I think that's a non-sense belief.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Icelander]
    #8157290 -

So some people are born more deserving than others? On what grounds might one judge who is more worthy of love and respect, and who is less?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Lion]
    #8157387 -

I duno OP, are you implying that anyone could possibly liberate themselves from all suffering? That is a dangerous thought, promised in many faiths, which causes people to become volatile - I'll go as far as saying that they become less than human. If you agree with the notion that "Life is suffering." then I agree with your notion that scientific method is the best way to overcome it (to achieve a specific goal) but you cannot make suffering disappear.


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Lion]
    #8157495 -

'backfromthedead, you could elaborate as to the nature of the beliefs you've been discarding? How did you come to recognize them as bullshit, and what if anything have you replaced them with?'

Mostly the idea or belief that what I have experienced concerning spirituality is something external from myself.
The vibes, energy, voices, visions...
I once unfortunately thought that this phenomena was not me somehow.
Putting faith in these psychedelically induced happenings as evidence of anything else has lead me in and out of literal hell.
I feel that no belief is an accurate reflection as there is little to actually 'know' verifiably concerning the matter.
I've lost faith in everything again for the better, imo.
However I doubt my ability to keep this frame of mind.:tongue:


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Re: examining beliefs [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8158177 -

I believe in ever-changing, neon-colored geometric patterns.

Amen.


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Re: examining beliefs [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8158183 -

Neon?? I'm more in the mood for some soft pastels.


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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Lion]
    #8158189 -

Lion said:
So some people are born more deserving than others? On what grounds might one judge who is more worthy of love and respect, and who is less?


Who says that we deserve anything? We experience what we experience, and it has little or nothing to do with what we supposedly "deserve" to have happen to us. No one deserves respect, love, etc...just as no one deserves disrespect, hatred, pain, etc...

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #8158800 -

EternalCowabunga said:
suffering, and faith. Suffering causes us to examine our beliefs to understand why there is a separation between ourselves and reality.


how can one examine "beliefs to understand why there is a separation between ourselves and reality" when one is experiencing suffering? or better, how does one perceive a separation from the suffering and its source when it is inflicting the suffering (or, the person(s) is allowing themselves to suffer)?



WhiskeyClone said:
backfromthedead said:
For example, every time I type or say "I believe this or that" or when I make a sweeping aphorism, a little red flag goes off which says "Do I really believe that? Why?"



i have tried and do try every day to not use the word "belief" or any of its other forms; this goes for internal communication or when speaking with others. i find it less confusing to use the word feel as opposed to believe, especially when talking with other people

Edited by demius (03/17/08 08:00 PM)

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Veritas]
    #8158900 -

Veritas said:
Lion said:
So some people are born more deserving than others?  On what grounds might one judge who is more worthy of love and respect, and who is less?


Who says that we deserve anything?  We experience what we experience, and it has little or nothing to do with what we supposedly "deserve" to have happen to us.  No one deserves respect, love, etc...just as no one deserves disrespect, hatred, pain, etc...

I know what you're saying, but I feel strongly that as highly conscious beings there is a level of respect which we owe each other as we share this planet.  Maybe this is more of a personal ethic than a belief. :smile:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: examining beliefs [Re: Lion]
    #8159020 -

Vaportrail, I think it's not so much that examining beliefs leads us towards liberation of suffering, but that the experience of suffering can be taken as a hint that we could be navigating reality better, and this would possibly lead us to create an understanding of the world which reduces our suffering (not expels it completely) and expands our awareness.

Demius, I think the answer lies in a kind of activity that WhiskeyClone mentioned. When we find ourselves getting angry or feeling like the world is against us or unfair or something to that extent, we can always ask ourselves why we feel that way. Then we examine if this is really the case, or whether we are making too big of a deal - if it is a belief that does not do anything for us in regards to bringing clarity or understanding or patience or any of these qualities that make reality more positive, we do not need to have that belief.

Also a belief can seem negative, but through further review of your knowledge, it can be neutralized through something that balances it out. I'm not talking about something directly in reality like the fact that you got angry when someone got your name wrong, for example - the first time you might get angry at them because it just seems wrong to you. If you keep getting angry each time this is suffering, and you have to start examining what is making you angry.

I think it's a good opportunity to create an understanding when something just SEEMS wrong or inexplicable, because it's like a blank space to create an opinion in - much easier to create a new belief than to find the deeply rooted old ones (it's easier to plant a seed than dig up a tree and put it in new grass). I don't know if this is what is really happening though, if we ever create "new beliefs". It could be all experience, but I'll leave that one alone because I just don't know.


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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Lion]
    #8159158 -

Lion said:
I know what you're saying, but I feel strongly that as highly conscious beings there is a level of respect which we owe each other as we share this planet.  Maybe this is more of a personal ethic than a belief. :smile:


And perhaps it would be better to say that this is your personal preference, rather than something which is OWED or DESERVED.  You would like it if everyone showed others respect, love, consideration, etc...

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: Veritas]
    #8159171 -

personal rights are ideals :shrug:.

So what is idealism?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: examining beliefs [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #13678298 -

ditto. i wasn't like that before shrooms and acid, or was i?


--------------------

my old man always said, the biggest mistake you can make in life is too think you are alive.
look at the turtle go, bro!

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