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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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did God create evil?
    #7356131 -

I believe that God gave free will to those to choose between right and wrong, good and evil. I was at a place today and someone said that God made Lucifer turn to bad and thus created evil. I disagreed saying that God did not create sin and it was never in his intentions when he created man. Then the person quoted scripture Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Regardless my basic stance is the same. Does anyone want to tackle the alforementioned passage though?

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent] * 1
    #7356162 -

I think... evil is not a creation, it's a destruction of creation. I'd suppose that to say "I create evil" is to mean: I am the force by which this is also made possible.
Ignorance being the impetus of sin, damage being the result, evil being the intentful hurt of life.

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent]
    #7356206 -

Well, could we really appreciate what the light is, without knowing what the darkness is? Could it be that by something being good, the opposite of that manifestation is evil? It seems like a very Tao concept. :grin:
In a way, i'm thankful for both.
It seems it's all part of the way things are.

:edit: On the path to finding what we truly love, we will come across everything that stands in our path.


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“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison

Edited by dirtworshipper (09/02/07 08:50 AM)

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #7356223 -

I think good would be appreciative if there were no evil, as a lack of appreciation for all good would signify the lingering of something evil that is prohibting your senses from the full truth of what good is.
For example, I already appreciate what goodness is without the assistance of evil, because I recognize goodness by seeing that something's effects are positive, not by seeing that it's good simply because it isn't evil.


I didn't properly end my last post:
Disco Cat said:
I think... evil is not a creation, it's a destruction of creation. I'd suppose that to say "I create evil" is to mean: I am the force by which this is also made possible.
Ignorance being the impetus of sin, damage being the result, evil being the intentful hurt of life.


So in conclusion...
I think:
What appears to be evil from a limited perspective turns out to be mere ignorance from the perpetrator when viewed from a larger perspective. Would God have created ignorance? I don't think ignorance is a creation, it's a lack of creation, stemming from laziness. Is laziness a creation? No, but I don't know what laziness stems from.

Edited by Disco Cat (08/31/07 03:45 PM)

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: Disco Cat] * 1
    #7356298 -

the paradoxes blow my mind.
:grin:

I definitely agree that evil is the destruction of good.
But at the same time.. is it perfect?
Is there a balance there?
I don't like to think that there are any mistakes in the Universe..
So, would us having free will be a mistake?
:eek:

like i said, my mind.. is blown

Quote:
Disco Cat said:I don't know what laziness stems from.


this made a vivid memory of a scene from Waking Life pop into my head.

Quote:
Waking Life said:Why is world history and evolution not stories of progress but rather this endless and futile addition of zeroes. No greater values have developed. Hell, the Greeks 3,000 years ago were just as advanced as we are. So what are these barriers that keep people from reaching anywhere near their real potential? The answer to that can be found in another question, and that’s this: Which is the most universal human characteristic - fear or laziness?


:eek:
great topic
thanks for blowing my mind
:grin:


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“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent]
    #7356405 -

I looked for an article that might serve to answer your question. C.G. Jung's Answer to Job addresses both our psychological projections onto the Unmanifest Deity, and our metaphysical assumptions about Deity. Thus:
http://www.religiousworlds.com/fondarosa/jung04.html

The dualistic Gnostics split the Demiurgic deity (gleaned from Plato) which was sometimes called 'Samael' (Blind god) from the True God. This Gnostic idea has something in it that Jung picked up on - that our anthropomorphic projections of the 'Old Bearded Guy in the Sky' also contains our unconscious projections, which are, by definition, unconscious. Included in scripture-writer's unconscious is the 'Shadow' - the collective repressed negative aspects of the writers themselves, projected onto Deity.

It is crucial to understand that scriptural statements about God cannot be taken as other than the words selected by human authors, howsoever inspired, and are never a concrete manifestation of the Unmanifest Ultimate Reality. To regard scriptures as the literal Word of God is simply a form of idolatry - bibliolotry to be exact. Additionally, you have but one, the KJV, translation of the word "evil" here.

<First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble.">

The above passage really doesn't help matters much, as these things are euphemisms for evil and most Christians will do a fancy symantical dance in their attempt to preserve the one-sided 'idea' of Deity as Light in which there is no darkness at all. Jung takes a different stance. To the extent that God is Light, God's Being casts a Shadow from creation. Creation exists in duality where 'Goodness' is meaningless without 'Evil.' All dualties are resolved in the ONE which is God, but form exists in duality. Insofar as God is Creator and creation exists, duality exists and good and evil exist. The potentialities may exist as the Eternal Ideas in God, but they are Unmanifest and it is the manifest world in which evil exists as moral evil (intentional harm) as well as natural evil (disease, tornadoes, etc.)


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent]
    #7357596 -

The Kabbalistic explanation, called "tzimtzum," says that in order to create the physical world, God had to constrict himself, limiting his infinite light into finite form, thus limiting both his power and his perfection. This creates the paradox that God is simultaneously both immanent and transcendent. On the one hand, nothing could exist in God's totality, and so the Infinite had to constrict itself in order to create. On the other hand, nothing could exist without God being within all of creation, sustaining it with his presence. All of creation contains sparks of God's holy essence, but it concealed by the klippoth, or "husks" of material imperfection. The mission of lightworkers on the earth is tikkun olam, or "mending of the world." They must find the divine sparks within the world, and lift them up to reveal their glory. God needs us just as we need God.


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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent] * 1
    #7357765 -

to me, it is a paradox that calls for acceptance.

the manifestation of the power to shape reality is a result of choice.

one can say that the degree of ignorance determines the choice that is made.

acceptance is significant, because i feel that an acceptance of our own ignorance can form a transcendence of what we refer to as the good and the evil.

it's like sitting back and saying,

it's all good.


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Re: did God create evil? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7358771 -

I think something could be said about Evil and 'Rah' (Ra) being the same word.


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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent] * 1
    #7360082 -

Evil.....surprise, it's a good thing!!!

One of the questions Christians are very often asked is "Why does evil exist? If God is so great, why does he allow so many terrible things to happen?" Whenever I personally get asked such a question, the very first thing I do is to run away. Oh, sure, people follow you for a while, but they peter out pretty fast. Most people's desire to learn the answer to a question like that is not as strong as my desire to avoid answering a question like that. So I'm usually at home enjoying a pizza, while they're still out there huffing and puffing on the street somewhere, going, "That's it. I'm joining a cult."

But I jest. (God, if you're reading this: Please think I'm funny. Because, you know … I get heat rashes.)

No, but here's the answer I Actually Use for that question: The reason God allows evil to exist is because he allows people to exist--and people do evil, not God.

Then I bolt.

No, but that's the key: It's people who do evil, not God. What people almost always mean when they ask, "Why does God allow evil to exist?" is "Why doesn't God stop evil from happening?"--which, in practical terms, inevitably translates into, "Why doesn't God stop people from doing evil things?"

And a fine question that is! Totally legitimate! And it's one for which Christians better have a clear, rational answer.

We do, and it's this: The reason God doesn't stop any person from ever doing anything they want to do is because doing so would necessarily mean violating that person's free will. And that's not something God is going to do--and it's definitely not something we'd like him to do. Our free will is what makes us human. It's God's ultimate gift to us; it is the quality that finally defines us as truly free, independent beings. Our free will is the proof that God loves us. It means he loves us so much he's endowed us with the ability to completely ignore or deny him if we want to. That's love. God would have to hate us to start violating our free will.

It's an extremely safe bet that if God ever decided to stop people from doing evil--which of course would mean stopping people from thinking about doing evil, which would mean stopping people from ever having the negative thoughts that proceed evil actions, which would have to amount to full mind control--not a person on this planet wouldn't yearn for the days when they were free to do whatever they wanted, evil or not. Not that any of us would be able to have such a thought, since God determining that we can't think about or do anything he doesn't want us to would have turned us all all Zombified Automatons.

What a nightmare that would be.

So remember: God doesn't do evil; people do evil. And God doesn't stop people from doing evil because that would mean violating their free will, which God won't do out of his deep and abiding love for us.

Bottom line: That evil exists doesn't prove that God is not benevolent. It proves just how benevolent he is.


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"In Vino Veritas"

Mycology (from the Greek μύκης, meaning "fungus") is the study of fungi, their genetic and biochemical properties, their taxonomy, and their use to humans as a source for tinder, medicinals (e.g., penicillin), food (e.g., beer, wine, cheese, edible mushrooms) and entheogens, as well as their dangers, such as poisoning or infection.


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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent]
    #7360252 -

I find it interesting that the problem of evil isn't really much of a problem in polytheistic religions. The gods of the Greek pantheon are all complex characters with their own virtues and vices, so there's no omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator to beg the question in the first place.


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Re: did God create evil? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7360296 -

It is the same with Hindu gods. Indra being the prime example.

Indra, the god of rain and thunder, and the weather, once lusted after the wife of a powerful sage, and when the sage found he was cuckolded, he cursed Indra that he would have vaginas all over his body. But Indra begged for forgiveness and the sage being compassionate turned the vaginas into eyes.


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent]
    #7360921 -

Good question!

And yes, God did! ...indirectly, through humanoids!

Not necessarily through humans as we know them today...

But to experience oneself, subjectively, polarity can be needed. Thus, by going through a "dark age" of more an more opposites, one can "cleanse itself", and merge together with itself, being; one as many, yet (also); many as 'being the one'!

"Evil is an action.. Not a being.."


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: trent]
    #7369894 -

Some OUTSTANDING posts here, you know who YOU ARE.

Black and White are, all I see, in my Infancy, Red and Yellow then came to be...

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: Middleman]
    #7369912 -

^^^
definitely some good opinions being given here.:thumbup:

Personally, I think that good and evil are somewhat relative terms...  events happen in the universe and humans put labels on those events, either good or evil, according to how they are affected by it.


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:strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard:

-When in Rome, do the Romans.

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: SaulGood]
    #7373831 -

Why do people say that God doesn't commit evil deeds? He gave Adam and Eve freedom of will, then tempted them with the apple. Once giving into temptation God punished by casting them out of Eden. God gives us freedom of will and then punishes our souls for eternity if we don't abide his rules. A slight contradiction. Do what you want/ Do as I say. God drowned most of the world and it's versatile life for a fresh start. Did the animals and every single human commit enough sins to justify execution? How about the plagues God put upon the Egyptians to free the Hebrews. Were the entire population deserving of them? Or was it just the rulers? How would you feel if your first born child was killed for something that was out of your control?

Of course this is all the old testament vengeful and smiting God. The new testament presents a vastly different God of love and compassion. This why I find it hard to understand why Christians read both books when they contradict one another so much.

As to the question: did God create evil? Yes. It was his moral code that he handed to the Hebrews that defined the difference between good and evil.

If it is in fact people doing the evil and God is good how can it be that God created man in his own image and left out the evil. Did evil somehow evolve separately from God? I think not. By creating free will and then creating a right and wrong way of using it God has created evil, not humans.

I am sorry if have written any inaccuracies as I am not a Bible scholar.

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: Williamsii]
    #7383040 -

Good post Williamsii. If God really is the God of the OT, then I think the Gnostics where right ....

He certainly dosn't beleive in forgivness.

Everyone tries to scwerm out of the idea of evil .. mainly because there is no good answer I always see the same old .. either blame the victim or blame the human cause he has free will (you'd think that if he was created in the image of God that he would be able to use that free will wisely), or just pretend that Evil isn't Evil.

Fact is you can take humans out of the equation and there is still Evil, desease, fighting, suffering, starvation, murder, all part of nature without humans.

As Buddha said, Life is Suffering. Escape the karmic wheel, escape incarnation and you escape suffering.


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Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #7383065 -

Quote:
Well, could we really appreciate what the light is, without knowing what the darkness is? Could it be that by something being good, the opposite of that manifestation is evil? It seems like a very Tao concept.
In a way, i'm thankful for both.
.


You feel the sun on your face it feels good. You don't need to feel frostbite to know the feeling of the Sun. You eat icecream it tastes good, you don't need to each dogshit to know that.

Even if you need something other than "Good" to define it, it could be a neutral, it doesn't need to be a raging opposite.

You are thankful for Evil ? You are thankful for war, for torture, for suffering, for disease, for the inquisition ?


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Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7383146 -

cloudtripper said:
Quote:
Well, could we really appreciate what the light is, without knowing what the darkness is? Could it be that by something being good, the opposite of that manifestation is evil? It seems like a very Tao concept.
In a way, i'm thankful for both.
.


You feel the sun on your face it feels good. You don't need to feel frostbite to know the feeling of the Sun. You eat icecream it tastes good, you don't need to each dogshit to know that.


True. I suppose we could appreciate the good without experiencing the darker aspects. I'm not so sure we could have those things without having the "raging opposite" though. I would like to think that we could, but I can't say for sure.

cloudtripper said:
You are thankful for Evil ? You are thankful for war, for torture, for suffering, for disease, for the inquisition ?



Not exactly. I'm thankful for everything, because I believe there's a balance between it all. I don't feel that we can have one without the other. Maybe in a Heaven of sorts.. or a state of Nirvana.. or whatever you want to call it. But right here, right now, in the sense of everything being perfectly balanced, I'm thankful.


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“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison

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Re: did God create evil? [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #7383262 -

Quote:
But right here, right now, in the sense of everything being perfectly balanced, I'm thankful.



Fair enough. I just have a really hard time seeing any perfect balance when on one side of the scale you have so much suffering and misery.

I mean put on one side of the scale (visualize it)the worse and most tragic suffering you can think of (not nice) and then balance that on the other side with Glory and Happiness ... it just doesn't work.

The only way it _might_ work (but still not nicely) is if the negative side is an unfortunate by product of the positive .. it's then not a balance, more like a baggage, but still brings into question the worth of the Good. If the worst suffering is a lack of Good then the worth of Good might be (sadly) worth the suffering in creation.


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Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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