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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950354 - 08/10/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You can bet your bottom dollar that at some point in their investiation the UK authorities violated some civil liberties.



Evidence?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5950364 - 08/10/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

alpaharedecho writes:

Quote:

So are you of the opinion that their civil liberties should not be violated, and it would be better if they killed many people. For the sake of everyone keeping their civil liberties? This is a serious question, I am trying to figure out my stance. On the one hand, many lives were saved, on the other, we are all that much closer to a police state.




The thing is, the Brits have admitted to knowing about this plot for at least a year. They would have let it run longer in order to net more conspirators but they came across some as yet unspecified piece of information which convinced them it would be dangerous to delay the bust much longer.

It is not unreasonable to speculate that the NSA communications intercept program may have played some part in their investigation, or the SWIFT bank clearing house program for tracking terrorist money movement. There are an awful lot of people assuring us that both those programs were violations of civil liberties.

As well, the information we have so far is that the plot was discovered through information coming out of Pakistan. We all know there are a lot of Jihadis being captured in the Pakistan/Afghanistan border area. It is not impossible the information came from captured Jihadis who were interrogated more vigorously than many people believe is acceptable. Perhaps they were forced to listen to loud rock and roll music, or they had fake menstrual blood smeared on them, or had woman jailers rub up against them suggestively, or were forced to watch a Koran being flushed down the toilet, and the psychological strain of these outrages made them crack and spill their guts.

Or maybe they were even secretly flown to Guantanamo Bay and held without being charged with war crimes and forcefully fed to prevent them from suiciding through hunger strikes. Or physically restrained from hanging themselves. Who knows what other vile practices may have been perpetrated on these folks to obtain this information? Let your imagination run wild.

Quote:

Now that I think of it, it wouldn't be far fetched that this was all made up, to make people(like me) debate giving up their liberties for the sake of human life.




:tinfoil:









Phred


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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950373 - 08/10/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not saying that's what happened, but I am saying it wouldn't be far fetched.

You believe there is a 0% possibility that the government faked this and found some poor bastards to plant evidence on?


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Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Silversoul]
    #5950374 - 08/10/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Don't be naive, Silversoul. Of course civil liberties have been violated. Racial profiling alone is a violation of civil liberties, don'tcha know. Let's not forget that many of these suspects are described as being of Pakistani descent. If that's not racial profiling, what is?



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5950379 - 08/10/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You believe there is a 0% possibility that the government faked this and found some poor bastards to plant evidence on?




Yup.





Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950383 - 08/10/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Let's not forget that many of these suspects are described as being of Pakistani descent. If that's not racial profiling, what is?



I seem to have missed the day in class where they said that mentioning someone's race is the same as racial profiling. I was under the impression that it involved specifically targeting people because of their race.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950387 - 08/10/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

You believe there is a 0% possibility that the government faked this and found some poor bastards to plant evidence on?




Yup.





Phred




and your calling me a moonbat :rotfl:..sheezus...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950396 - 08/10/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

You believe there is a 0% possibility that the government faked this and found some poor bastards to plant evidence on?




Yup.





Phred




It's people like you that allow governments to get too powerful, you must asses ALL possibilities, no matter how out their they are. Of course that is just my opinion, and my motto, question EVERYTHING.

Let me ask you this, do you believe the official 9/11 report also?  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Silversoul]
    #5950402 - 08/10/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I was under the impression that it involved specifically targeting people because of their race.




Exactly. Doesn't the fact that so many of the suspects are of Pakistani heritage strike you as a little bit convenient? They are being set up by the UK government as patsies just because of their race. I mean, let's look at this -- none of the people usually selected for such careful scrutiny at airport security are mentioned. Do we see mention of grannies with canes or Danish girl scouts or Presbyterian clergymen? No we do not.

I rest my case.





Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950427 - 08/10/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Exactly. Doesn't the fact that so many of the suspects are of Pakistani heritage strike you as a little bit convenient?



Not really. If they caught a few leads on some of the conspirators, then further investigation would lead to other suspects, who happen to have been Pakistani(unless you're suggesting that some of them were falsely accused based on their race).

Quote:

I rest my case.



Any competent judge would throw out your case in two seconds.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950460 - 08/10/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

From what I'm seeing on CNN and the BBC, it wasn't over-reaching British police procedures that thwarted the terror attack, but an arrest in Pakistan that pretty much exposed the plot.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflinePhred
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Silversoul]
    #5950469 - 08/10/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Sigh.

Silversoul, you've been around here long enough to know my views on these matters. I am being facetious, here. I thought my earlier comments re the ACLU would have tipped off the veteran posters.

Were civil rights violated? Perhaps. Depends how one defines "civil rights", doesn't it? My point is that you can bet your bottom dollar the barking moonbats will insist civil liberties were violated. Those who aren't insisting the whole thing is Rovian conspiracy to take pressure off of Bush, that is.





Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Basilides]
    #5950470 - 08/10/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
From what I'm seeing on CNN and the BBC, it wasn't over-reaching British police procedures that thwarted the terror attack, but an arrest in Pakistan that pretty much exposed the plot.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html



Good work, detective. :thumbup:

Interesting how investigation can turn up more truth than wild speculation.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Basilides]
    #5950504 - 08/10/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Read my earlier comments. The Brits have been working on this for a year. In an investigation as long as that, tracking as many people as they did (reports say they are still looking to round up another 50 "in connection" with the plot) it is almost inevitable that somewhere along the way an investigator cut a corner on his paperwork, thus opening the door to accusations of violating civil liberties.

And again, what if some of the info surfaced as a result of the NSA communications intercept program? There are still a whole hell of a lot of people (many who post in this forum, in fact) who argue the NSA program was a massive violation of civil liberties. If there was a connection to folks in Pakistan -- and it seems obvious there was such a connection, from the reports we have at the moment -- I find it impossible to believe there was no electronic communication between the plotters and folks in Pakistan, and that is precisely the kind of communications the NSA program monitored.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Silversoul]
    #5950515 - 08/10/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Silversoul, the post Basilides linked repeats what I had already said -- the latest info from Pakistan the Brits received led them to pounce now rather than to continue to let the conspirators run. The investigation itself is -- according to the Brits -- a year old. These folks were already under surveillance and had been for quite some time -- that's why they were able to be rounded up in a matter of hours.



Phred


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950813 - 08/10/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Forgive me if I don't gasp in horror at the possible attack. I've been lied to far too many times by our govt to believe every turd that comes out of their ass. Is it possible this is true? Certainly. However, after seeing the other obvious fake terror plots (miami) I am going to view this with a VERY healthy dose of skepticism.


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5950867 - 08/10/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

thats what ive been trying to tell everyone..to no avail...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
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Loc: Airstrip One
Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950870 - 08/10/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Like I said, they probably got caught because their civil liberties were violated. Phone taps, interception of e-mails, bugs placed in strategic locations, racial profiling, infiltration of mosques... maybe all that and more. Too bad the ACLU doesn't operate in the UK. This case cries out for ACLU involvement.

Phred




As long as lawful procedures were followed, and I have no reason to believe they were not, then no civilliberties were violated. The police and security services have a right and duty to investigate and prevent crime, however they must do so within the laws of the land. There are lawful provisions for bugging, tapping, infiltrating etc., its all about ensuring power is not abused.

As for racial profiling, I am curious, how do you think that would help?

edit: typos

Edited by psilomonkey (08/10/06 03:48 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5950874 - 08/10/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:
As long as lawful procedures were followed, and a have no reason to believe they were not, then no civil liberties were violated. The police and security have and right and duty to investigate and prevent crime, however they must do so within the laws of the land. There are lawful provisions for bugging, tapping, infiltrating etc., its all about ensuring power is not abused.



Wow, someone gets it! :thumbup:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 20 Arrested in London [Re: Phred]
    #5950914 - 08/10/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quick... before their names are made public, let's run a pool on how many of these thwarted 'splodeydopes have a "Mohammed" or "Mahmoud" as one of their names. I'll guess nine.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1230417,00.html

Quote:

Plane Terror Plot Thwarted
Updated: 07:22, Thursday August 10, 2006

Police say they have disrupted a major plot to blow up a dozen planes over UK and US cities with explosive devices smuggled aboard as hand luggage.

Police are have arrested 20 people in London - the culmination of a covert counter-terrorist operation lasting several months.

Passengers trying to board international flights from the UK are not being allowed to carry on normal hand luggage.

Sky News' Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said there were concerns that certain explosives could evade x-ray screening of hand luggage.

Brunt said the threat was thought to be imminent and those arrested were mainly young, British-born Asian men. (***note to American readers*** in the UK it is common to refer to Pakistanis and Indians as "Asian" -- Phred)

He said the alleged plan involved people boarding flights and detonating explosives on planes over UK and US cities.

The Home Secretary John Reid said the alleged plot was a "major threat" to bring down a number of planes.

The Home Office's level of security - indicating public risk - has been raised from 'severe' to 'critical'.

The swoop followed a pre-planned intelligence led operation by the Met's anti-terrorist branch and security service.

A police statement said: "This is a major operation which inevitably will be lengthy and complex. We will provide further information as soon as possible."

Lengthy queues at airports have been reported and a Transport Department spokesman said delays were inevitable.

"Passengers are being asked to allow themselves plenty of extra time and to ensure that other than the few permitted items, all their belongings are placed in their hold baggage and checked in.

"These additional security measures will make travel more difficult for passengers, particularly at such a busy time of the year.




You can bet your bottom dollar that at some point in their investiation the UK authorities violated some civil liberties. Let's all send outraged letters of protest to the British Home Office to teach them a lesson.

Phred




I'm posting this after seeing Phred's Over/Under line at 9 without going anywhere else. No shit. I'm going to go.......drum roll.....
OVER. Just because I heard there were 21 arrested and I think that's an edge.

I bet the NYTimes fires its entire London bureau because they didn't break the news two days ago that they were going down. Fucking slackers.


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