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Invisibledaussaulit
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Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Bush Statue toppled in London
    #2126930 - 11/21/03 10:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/11/20/britain.bush/index.html
Quote:

Bush wraps up UK visit
Mass antiwar protests in London

LONDON, England (CNN) --President George Bush welcomed Queen Elizabeth II to the residence of the U.S. ambassador for dinner Thursday evening, concluding his state visit to Britain.


A few hours earlier, antiwar demonstrators protesting Bush's trip to London toppled an effigy of him in Trafalgar Square, mocking the toppling of a statue of Saddam Hussein by U.S. troops after they marched into Baghdad back in April.


"Our message is quite simply, 'Go home, Bush,'" said one speaker at the protest, which police said drew between 100,000 and 110,000 people.


Earlier Thursday, Bush's visit to Prime Minister Tony Blair's official residence, No. 10 Downing Street, took on a somber tone with the news that terrorist bombs had ripped through a British consulate and bank building in Istanbul, Turkey, killing at least 27 people, including Britain's consul general.


At a joint news conference, both leaders said the attacks demonstrated the need to remain resolute in standing up to terrorists. (Full story)


"Once again, we're reminded of the evil these terrorists pose to innocent people everywhere and to our way of life," Blair said. "Once again, we must affirm that in the face of this terrorism, there must be no holding back, no compromise, no hesitation in confronting this menace."


"The cruelty is part of their strategy," Bush said. "The terrorists hope to intimidate. They hope to demoralize. They particularly want to intimidate and demoralize the free nations. They're not going to succeed."


Bush brushed off the demonstrations that have dogged his visit, telling reporters, "It's a fantastic thing to come to a country where people are able to express their views." He made a point of noting that people in Baghdad could not do the same under Saddam Hussein.


"I fully understand people don't agree with war. But I hope they agree with peace and freedom and liberty," he said. "The prime minister and I have a solemn duty to protect our people, and that's exactly what I intend to do as the president of the United States -- protect the people of my country."


Blair said he thinks it is "bizarre" that people are protesting U.S.-led efforts to topple the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein in Iraq, given how those regimes brutalized their own people.


He said the "effect of us not doing this would be that the Taliban was still in Afghanistan and Saddam was still in charge of Iraq. And I think people have got to accept that this is the consequence of the position they're in."


Thursday's protest march to Trafalgar Square was largely peaceful, but police arrested 58 people, many on minor charges.


Some Americans in London participated in the demonstration, including Ron Kovic, a paralyzed Vietnam veteran and antiwar activist whose life story was the basis of the movie "Born on the Fourth of July."


In an address to the crowd, Kovic told protesters that they "have the moral high ground."


"You are the ones who really care about Great Britain, and you are the ones who care about my country, the United States," he said. "Thank you, thank you."


Before visiting No. 10 Downing Street, Bush met privately with family members of British service members killed in Iraq.


"These brave men died for the security of this country and in the cause of human freedom," Bush said. "Our nations honor their sacrifice. I pray for the comfort of their families."


In addition to discussing a range of foreign policy issues, Bush and Blair also touched on two issues that have been a source of contention between their governments -- the U.S. detention of British subjects without trial as enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and U.S. tariffs on imported steel designed to protect the beleaguered American steel industry.


Blair, who has been under pressure at home to get Bush to transfer custody of the British detainees, said the dispute "is not going to be resolved today, but it will be resolved at some point soon."


"I've already said in the House of Commons that it will be resolved in one of two ways -- either they will be tried by a military commission out there or, alternatively, they'll be brought back here," Blair said.


As for the steel tariffs, Bush said, "it's an issue that the prime minister has brought up not once, not twice, but three times.


"It's on his mind. It's also on my mind, and I'm reviewing the findings about the restructuring of our steel industry."


Underscoring the close personal relationship that has developed between the conservative president and the Labor prime minister, Bush will conclude his visit to Britain Friday by traveling to Sedgefield, an area in northern England that Blair represents in Parliament, for joint appearances with the prime minister.


The president will return to the White House Friday evening.




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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: daussaulit]
    #2128188 - 11/21/03 08:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I saw them knock over the statue in the news. I just had to laugh because the only point they got across was their blind hatred for Bush.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: z@z.com]
    #2128310 - 11/21/03 10:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Explain how their hatred for him is blind.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Invisibleshroomophile
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Registered: 08/20/02
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: z@z.com]
    #2128374 - 11/21/03 11:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I havn't liked the brits since 1812 and 1776,but by god they are taking a step in the right direction.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: daussaulit]
    #2128609 - 11/22/03 02:21 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i think this is pretty good. it's just the end of the article...

"...In a letter to the Guardian newspaper, Britain's greatest living playwright Harold Pinter described the United States as "more and more resembling Nazi Germany." So that would explain the goose-stepping on Pennsylvania Avenue, the concentration camps in Nebraska and the recent U.S. invasions of Mexico, Canada and Brazil.

The leftist mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, plumbed even greater depths of anti-American hysteria, denouncing the U.S. President as "the greatest threat to life on this planet that we've most probably ever seen."

Forget bloody dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mobutu, Idi Amin and Mao Tse Tung, whose policies led to the deaths of tens of millions of people; the real personification of evil for liberal and left-leaning Europeans is none other than Bush.

Now the U.S. commander in chief is no saint. His unswerving support for the death penalty is difficult for most Europeans to stomach, his opposition to the Kyoto Treaty and the International Criminal Court smacks of American self-interest and his case for war against Iraq was poorly made and based on dodgy intelligence.

But to deduce from all this that Bush is some kind of closet fascist, fundamentalist fanatic or "blood-drinking" terrorist -- as Pinter likened him to -- exposes the intellectual flabbiness of the protestors' arguments.

Whatever his faults, Bush is the democratically elected leader of a free country who has helped get rid of two of the world's most oppressive regimes.

Without U.S. force, the Taliban would still be in power in Afghanistan, condemning millions of women to a life behind the burka and the war-torn country to decades of further poverty and international isolation.

And without British and American firepower, Saddam would still be killing his opponents, squandering the oil-rich country's resources and destabilizing the entire Middle East.

Whatever their misgivings about the reasons for going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, true believers in freedom, justice and equality should at least have the grace and humility to admit that these two countries are now better off without the despots who previously misruled them -- just as the Balkans is without Serb strongman Slobodan Milosevic.

This is not so easy, because many of the marchers chanting slogans against "U.S. imperialism" on Thursday are exactly the same people who clamored for America to step in to stop the bloodletting in Rwanda, Somalia, Kosovo and Liberia.

Many Americans will have been rightly shocked by the television images of protestors burning American flags and trampling on the fallen effigy of Bush. But they can rest assured that this is not the view of most British people.

A poll conducted for the left-leaning Guardian newspaper on the eve of Bush's visit, revealed that 62 percent of Brits regarded the United States as "generally speaking a force for good, not evil, in the world," while only 15 percent agreed with the suggestion that it is an "evil empire."

Even the claim Bush is "hated by a majority of Brits" was proved false. The American leader was welcomed by 43 percent of those polled, as opposed to 36 percent who said they would have preferred him to stay away.

Bush aides revealed the president knew of the survey's findings before he touched down in Britain. No wonder he was grinning as he inspected the troops at Buckingham Palace."

http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/11210004aaa05765.upi&Sys=siteia&Fid=REPUBLIC&Type=News&Filter=Republicans


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: daussaulit]
    #2128643 - 11/22/03 02:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It was certainly a lot less staged than the toppling of the Saddam statue.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: ]
    #2128648 - 11/22/03 02:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Even the claim Bush is "hated by a majority of Brits" was proved false. The American leader was welcomed by 43 percent of those polled, as opposed to 36 percent who said they would have preferred him to stay away.

What bullshit. This is a classic example of "interpreting" whatever you want from polls. There's a helluva lot of reasons why someone who didn't like Bush wouldn't mind him visiting Britain. Welcoming someone to visit your country certainly doesn't mean you "love" him. I didn't even mind him coming to the country until all those people died in Istanbul. Must be one of the most bloody and expensive re-election photo opportunities in history.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: Xlea321]
    #2128653 - 11/22/03 02:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This is a classic example of "interpreting" whatever you want from polls. There's a helluva lot of reasons why someone who didn't like Bush wouldn't mind him visiting Britain. Welcoming someone to visit your country certainly doesn't mean you "love" him.

that much is right... and it's not very significant either... 36% to 43% isn't exactly a large margin, especially when we have no idea how many people were polled or how they were selected... it doesn't "prove" anything really... not the better part of the article...


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: ]
    #2130350 - 11/23/03 12:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But to deduce from all this that Bush is some kind of closet fascist, fundamentalist fanatic or "blood-drinking" terrorist -- as Pinter likened him to -- exposes the intellectual flabbiness of the protestors' arguments.

Whatever his faults, Bush is the democratically elected leader of a free country who has helped get rid of two of the world's most oppressive regimes.

Without U.S. force, the Taliban would still be in power in Afghanistan, condemning millions of women to a life behind the burka and the war-torn country to decades of further poverty and international isolation.

And without British and American firepower, Saddam would still be killing his opponents, squandering the oil-rich country's resources and destabilizing the entire Middle East.




Amen


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2130364 - 11/23/03 01:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You think women arn't behind the burka under the northern alliance?

You're living in a dream world.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: ]
    #2130410 - 11/23/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think part of the reason that they see bush
as such a threat is the cumulative list of his
'offenses' and the position that our nation
holds on the world stage.

while the evil dictators named where of the
worst kind, the agenda that his administration
has pushed at home and abroad, compounded
by the sheer power of the american platform
puts a real scare into people who had high
hopes for any sort of cooperative international
advancement of global law and diplomacy.

there is a glaring sense of double standard and
perceived immunity that turns people off to the
neocon agenda.

free markets for you, but not for us.

privitization of utilities for you, but not for us.

strict environmental controls for you, but not for us.

no nuclear weapons for you, but lots for us.

these sorts of things.

the whole concept of global domination...the idea
that the american military complex should be capable
of defeating the combined force of all opposing armies
is a frightening thing and will likely lead to another
cold war type military build up before it ever leads
to increased diplomacy and cooperation on the world
stage.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: afoaf]
    #2130702 - 11/23/03 05:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

nice post.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: afoaf]
    #2130920 - 11/23/03 07:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

afoaf writes:

privitization of utilities for you, but not for us.

What utilities does the US federal government own? I can think only of the Post Office, myself. Are there others?

What utilities does the US government insist that other countries privatize? What repercussions is the US government threatening if other countries fail to privatize them?

strict environmental controls for you, but not for us.

Which strict environmental controls are the US government insisting foreign countries adopt? What repercussions are they threatening if these controls are not enacted?

no nuclear weapons for you, but lots for us.

Which parts of the international agreement limiting proliferation of nuclear weapons for all signatories is the US government violating?

the whole concept of global domination...the idea
that the american military complex should be capable
of defeating the combined force of all opposing armies
is a frightening thing...


Why?

...and will likely lead to another
cold war type military build up...


By whom?

... before it ever leads
to increased diplomacy and cooperation on the world
stage.


Diplomacy has limits. Cooperation has limits.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: Phred]
    #2131428 - 11/24/03 12:35 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diplomacy has limits. Cooperation has limits.



As does military force, which should never be used when one of the former can be applied.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: silversoul7]
    #2132185 - 11/24/03 12:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

As does military force, which should never be used when one of the former can be applied.

Agreed. Military force must not be used unless the former have failed.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: Phred]
    #2132462 - 11/24/03 02:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think he/she meant it the other way around in regards to privatization of utilities since Bush is for deregulation of utilities, and some socialist European countries have government owned utilities. Nevertheless, yeah, the U.S. government is not imposing anything; they just do not like our stance on socialism.

Yeah the U.S. is not imposing any environmental regulations, but we did decline signing the Kyoto pact, and Bush has been doing anything he can to undermine the E.P.A. lately and their clean air regulations and some other environmental restrictions. While many states are working to combat global warming, federally, the issue is being ignored. I think this is one reason that Bush is not received well by Europe, who, if some global warming predictions are correct, are going to suffer more than we will if there is some sort of global superstorm.

Does the U.S. government let U.N. inspectors into places like Area 51 and the other dozens of top-secret military bases? I do not believe they do, but if you have evidence that there are routine weapons inspections across all the bases in the U.S. than please list me a link. Otherwise, it seems unfair to me.

It is frightening when the popular U.S. sentiment is not guided by the motives behind the actions/incursions/wars, but the lies the media feeds people.

There very well could be a cold war, North Korea has nuclear weapons, I believe some of the European countries have nuclear weapons, China has weapons, and Russia has weapons. Not to mention places like Pakistan and India, which admit they have nuclear weapons. There very well could be a cold war in the future.




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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: Phred]
    #2133890 - 11/25/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

admittedly, I was speaking in very simplistic terms, but let's
go ahead and dig in a bit, shall we?

What utilities does the US federal government own? I can think only of
the Post Office, myself. Are there others?


I don't think they own any directly, but there is the notion of
heavy governmental regulation and support of utility monopolies
in electricity, water and others.

What utilities does the US government insist that other countries
privatize?

What repercussions is the US government threatening if other countries
fail to privatize them?


World Bank, IMF assistance plans generally include mandatory
privatization and/or deregulation of major utilities.

I think Brazil is currently contemplating the privatization of their
water utilities as a condition of financial assistance and then there
was the bloodshed in Bolivia as well.

repurcussions for failure to privatize? usually this is the withdrawal
of their assistance packages from WB and IMF which generally
means certain death for the economy instead of a long, slow one.

doesn't the US Treasury have a 49% stake in the World Bank?

Which parts of the international agreement limiting proliferation of nuclear weapons for all signatories is the US government violating?

dunno, but I like how we're upping our arsenal while trying to convince
north korea and other radical nations that the world is better without
nuclear weapons. that sets a great example.

hope nobody in India or Pakistan gets the hiccups.

we're either going to wipe out nukes or not...I think it's ludicrous to
expect others to disarm when we're putting in orders for more
mini-nukes.

....

Why?


why? because you can't offer the olive branch of peace
with your left hand while loading your gun with your right.

call me crazy, but I believe that the only way that our
species will advance will be through greater cooperation
and the globalization of humanity. I don't think the ends
that I would hope that our world achieves are won by
these means.

....

By whom?


China, EU...dunno...but, again, if you propose that there
is no 'who' then why do we need to keep upping our
armaments against them?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleSlite
Lost in Life
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Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 355
Loc: UK
Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: afoaf]
    #2138327 - 11/26/03 05:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Why you ask?

Because no one country should have that power, how can we live in a democratic world if one country can do what the hell they like with no repercussions and no one to answer too?

I think the reason why most europeans dislike america is because you have effectivly given us all the middle finger by waltzing around the world doing what the fuck you like. You disobey international law and the UN (which you helped create) while expecting everyone else to follow it. No one likes a hypocrite.

(I was under the impression that most people here are americans so you obviously means america)


--------------------
"You can either believe you can do something, or believe you can't.... either way your right"



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: afoaf]
    #2138758 - 11/26/03 10:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

afoaf writes:

World Bank, IMF assistance plans generally include mandatory
privatization and/or deregulation of major utilities.


So, even assuming the World Bank and IMF are US government departments (which they aren't), the repercussions of countries failing to privatize their utilities is that they will have to look for loans elsewhere. Where is it written that organizations must make loans with no conditions? For that matter, where is it written that organizations must make loans at all?

dunno, but I like how we're upping our arsenal while trying to convince
north korea and other radical nations that the world is better without
nuclear weapons. that sets a great example.


Upping our arsenal? Source please. I ask again, which clauses of the international nuclear non-proliferation treaties is the US violating? Iran and North Korea were violating it -- that has been determined not just by the US and by their own admissions (in the case of North Korea), but by the IAEA.

why? because you can't offer the olive branch of peace
with your left hand while loading your gun with your right.


Of course you can.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Re: Bush Statue toppled in London [Re: Phred]
    #2139023 - 11/27/03 12:26 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Upping our arsenal?

http://in.news.yahoo.com/030521/137/24hvx.html

as for the clauses being violated, I'll answer again,
I DON'T KNOW and I don't care. principally, we are
still pursuing nuclear weapons while expecting others
not to.

So, even assuming the World Bank and IMF are US government
departments (which they aren't), the repercussions of countries
failing to privatize their utilities is that they will have to look for loans
elsewhere.


They are not government departments, but I believe that
the United States owns a 49% stake in the World Bank, which
as a condition of it's loans to impoverished countries, generally
requires that they privatize, privatize, privatize, sometimes with
american firms.

There's not many places for nations to go for loans, especially
the types of nations trying to get a little love from the IMF and
WB. So, unfortunately, the repurcussion you mentioned is
doubly painful as there are not many other 'elsewheres' to
look.

Where is it written that organizations must make loans with no
conditions? For that matter, where is it written that organizations
must make loans at all?


It is not written that either of these institutions must make loans
without conditions...that would be ludicrous. Equally ludicrous is
the fact that the conditions that they foist onto these countries
have proven historically disasterous for previous client states of
the IMF and WB, environmentally, economically and socially.

This is from the World Bank website:

The World Bank Group?s mission is to fight poverty and improve
the living standards of people in the developing world. It is a
development Bank which provides loans, policy advice, technical
assistance and knowledge sharing services to low and middle income
countries to reduce poverty. The Bank promotes growth to create jobs
and to empower poor people to take advantage of these opportunities.


it sounds like they are in the business of making loans to poor countries.

just not sure whey they insist on kick them when they've already
got them over a barrel.



--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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