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For Atheists...
    #5889134 -

What brought you to Atheism?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #5889160 -

God, though I don't consider myself Atheist.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5889338 -

Isn't a somewhat more natural inquiry one which seeks the (faulty) origin of theism in a theist? Asking 'atheists' from where their lack of belief originates is akin to requesting of an asexual creature how it chose to not reproduce through sex. Perhaps I'm biased, but a lack of belief appears to me as the simplest interpretation of observations and experiences within our world.

As an aside, many so-called atheists do not find it necessary to refer to themselves as such simply because it calls undue attention to the fact that others happen to believe in a deity. Atheists, being free from the burden of proof, have no real cause for a label of that sort. If only all would-be atheists were deserving of simply being called 'rational' or 'conscious'.

For now, we're just brights.


--------------------
peacefromabovecloudtop


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Re: For Atheists... [Re: cloudtop]
    #5889417 -

OK well first of all what is your definition of Atheist?
Atheist- no belief of ANY god/ high power or worshiping
Agnostic- not confirming or denying god exists, or worshiping
There are many types of Agnosticism.
I believe in agnostic atheism...  can say for sure what is what but most likely there isn't a god. But I follow many Buddhist ways of thought. I believe there are to many different religions for any one to be the "ONLY RIGHT ONE" my dad is Jehovah's whiteness and I am and anthropologist. The mix was in interesting conversation :smile: I was religious in school because "that's what you were supposed to do" but always questioned it because of my meditation practices and intuitions.


--------------------
~*~I'm also an educated guesser, and knowledge seeker :smile: If I haven't done it, I know someone who has. IF I don't know, I know someone who does! I am a realist so deal with it, if you don't like it you can choose to not read it!

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #5889432 -

Lots of unanwsered questions.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5889554 -

Basically what Mushman said. That and the faith that there are more intelligent answers out there.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Phishe]
    #5889633 -

Did the design design itself or was there a designer of the design, acutually I don't

lean one way or the other, I'm bipartial to all, why, because one must

remove emotion from reason, alot peoples beliefs aren't based on

cultural seperation and unbiased observation, for me assume one way or the other has no point because I truly don't care,

why do people care and debate views, find one that works for you, dogma to me is arbitrary as a tool for the preceiver to preceive..

Edited by capliberty (07/23/06 02:38 AM)

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: capliberty]
    #5889638 -

capliberty said:
Did the design design itself or was there a designer of the design, acutual I don't

lean one way or the other, I'm bipartial to all, why, because one must

remove emotion from reason, alot peoples beliefs aren't based on

cultural seperation and unbiased observation, for me assume one way or the other has no point because I truly don't care,

why do people care and debate views, find one that works for you, dogma to me is arbitrary as a tool for the preceiver to preceive..


I think it's important to gain knowledge about the beliefs of others.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #5889788 -

Cracka_X said:
What brought you to Atheism?


as much as others will try to apply logic to this and say this is not a fair question, this question does hit a spot in human nature.

People, as much as they think they are logical don't chose beliefs that are logical, but those that fit them better

Take a look at what atheism offers that even you might like, and that's your answer

I'm not an atheist, but I think the pluses of atheism are obvious:

-first of all, the number one reason is sexual freedom.
There is nothing above mans urge to screw someone or something, and you can get a person to do anything and believe in anything if you appeal to his sexual urges.
-There are no standards to which you have to behave and think other than those you accept yourself or are enforced to by by guns.
-it does not require any kind of understanding or thinking: you are an animal, there is no god, period, no deeper philosophy in it.
-human life is a coincidence, therefore people hold no responsibility to do or be anything, they can just sit around all day and do nothing, or eat till they get 200kg, it doesn't matter, because the universe does not care wheather they are here or not.

Atheism is a much more pleasant view on life...well, until someone dies..  :tongue2:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5889797 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Lots of unanwsered questions.



--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #5889974 -

Cracka_X said:
What brought you to Atheism?


At a very early age I realized that reindeer can't fly and rabbits don't lay eggs. From there it was quite easy to realize that a super duper magic friend probably didn't exist. That and the fact that there are hundreds of groups arguing for hundreds of different gods and that only one can be correct and almost certainly none are. That and the fact that it is utterly useless (i.e. no predicive value) and almost always harmful to believe in this super duper magic friend.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5889985 -

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant, BUT magic is real. We are beings with a foot in each world...the physical and the non-physical.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890082 -

Quote:
I'm not an atheist, but I think the pluses of atheism are obvious:

-first of all, the number one reason is sexual freedom.
There is nothing above mans urge to screw someone or something, and you can get a person to do anything and believe in anything if you appeal to his sexual urges.

-There are no standards to which you have to behave and think other than those you accept yourself or are enforced to by by guns.

-it does not require any kind of understanding or thinking: you are an animal, there is no god, period, no deeper philosophy in it.

-human life is a coincidence, therefore people hold no responsibility to do or be anything, they can just sit around all day and do nothing, or eat till they get 200kg, it doesn't matter, because the universe does not care wheather they are here or not.



One can have standards without believing in a supernatural deity.  This argument against atheism/agnosticism is tired and old.  Ethical standards, personal responsibility, compassion, love, ambition, philosophy, meaningfulness, philanthropy, self-discipline, are all independent of the fear and worship of G-O-D.

All the behaviors you attribute to atheism are regularly practiced by those who call themselves believers.  How is their professed belief in God preventing their animal nature from running wild?  Or is the argument here that true believers never misbehave, due to their heartfelt faith in an all-loving, vengeful father figure?

I am more agnostic than atheist, as I believe it is impossible to either prove OR disprove the existence of supernatural beings.

I have not seen nor experienced any evidence of the existence of the Christian God, but leave open the possibility that a conscious energy empowers and enlivens the Universe.

It seems highly unlikely to me that this energy is concerned with our choice of sexual partners, overconsumption of food, or candidate for President.  :rolleyes:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5890150 -

"It seems highly unlikely to me that this energy is concerned with our choice of sexual partners, overconsumption of food, or candidate for President."

You mean George Bush wasn't chosen by God?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5890153 -

He was chosen by a 7 foot tall rabbit named Harvey.  :tongue:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5890262 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
You mean George Bush wasn't chosen by God?


He had to be. He sure wasn't chosen by the people.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890346 -

Your description of Atheism sounds quite a bit more like nihilism.

Here's an enjoyable little snippet from our good ole' pal Watts

Quote:
Now, when we get to that point in Buddhism, Buddhists do a funny thing, which is going to occupy our attention for a good deal of this seminar. They don't fall down and worship. They don't really have any name for what it is that is, really and basically. The idea of anatman, of non-self, is applied in Buddhism not only to the individual ego, but also to the notion that there is a self of the universe, a kind of impersonal or personal god, and so it is generally supposed that Buddhism is generally atheistic. It's true, depending on what you mean by atheism. Common or garden atheism is a form of belief, namely that I believe there is no god--and Hans Enkel[?] is its prophet. (I'm speaking of a famous atheist). The atheist positively denies the existence of any god. All right. Now, there is such an atheist, if you put dash between the 'a' and 'theist,' or speak about something called 'atheos'--'theos' in Greek means 'god'--but what is a non-god? A non-god is an inconceivable something or other.



--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5890380 -

Silversoul said:
Huehuecoyotl said:
You mean George Bush wasn't chosen by God?


He had to be. He sure wasn't chosen by the people.


Oh no? Too bad I saw two elections he won. Try not to pollute this thread and forum with bullshit you can't get away with at PA&L.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5890384 -

Hmmmmmmmmm....didn't he actually lose the popular vote in 2000?


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5890395 -

Which is not how presidential elections are determined in this country and he did win it in 2004. I will no longer respond to this here. It belongs in PA&L, where it gets clobbered by adults. If you want to continue this do it there.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: trendal]
    #5890407 -

trendal said:
MushmanTheManic said:
Lots of unanwsered questions.




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Re: For Atheists... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5890411 -

Whatever


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5890434 -

zappaisgod said:
Oh no? Too bad I saw two elections he won. Try not to pollute this thread and forum with bullshit you can't get away with at PA&L.


How about you take that stick out of your ass and learn to take a fucking joke?


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #5890473 -

Cracka_X said:
What brought you to Atheism?


Atheists in America tripled in about 2002 when everyone found out George W bush was Christian.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5890620 -

Try not to pollute this thread and forum with bullshit you can't get away with at PA&L.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5890633 -

We were discussing divine intervention, and how "God" could give two shits about who the president is. Then you came along and started babbling about politics. How about YOU stop polluting this thread with your irrelevant bullshit?


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5890650 -

I didn't bring that shit here, SS did. And I answered the thread question fully and honestly. If you have a political issue, bring it to where the big boys live, PA&L.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5890654 -

C'mon now. Everyone knows George Dubya Bush Jr was propelled into officed by the sole effort of the Elders of Zion Retirement Home in New York, New York. Bill White truly won the election in 2000, but the Zionist Occupational Government used their liberalizationized media to blind the nation to what was really going on. SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!

Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/23/06 02:02 PM)

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5890657 -

We have an intelligent designer inside of us. But how do we know it's intelligent, or could just be random changes made by a designer, why do we have 5 fingers on each hand instead of 6?


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5890672 -

As a matter of fact, I do believe SS was continuing on with a joke that the Coyote made. It's a joke. He even said so.

You were the one who wanted to start a political discussion because of it, and then got bothered and told people to go argue in PA&L. That's like smacking someone in one room, and then telling them that you're not supposed to smack people there so if you want to smack, you should go outside.

This wasn't a political discussion until you came along, started discussing politics, and then told people not to discuss politics here.

You should just stop while you're ahead.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5890679 -

Political discussions are allowed hizzile.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5890783 -

Indeed, which is why I found it strange that zappa was telling people to go argue politics in PA&L instead of here. Whatever though.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Droz]
    #5890795 -

Because that's the way we evolved. The necessary causes and conditions for a five fingered being came to be, so accordingly, a five fingered being arose.

If the causes and conditions were ripe for a six fingered being, then a six fingered being would arise.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5890874 -

Fractalated said:
Your description of Atheism sounds quite a bit more like nihilism.

Here's an enjoyable little snippet from our good ole' pal Watts

Quote:
Now, when we get to that point in Buddhism, Buddhists do a funny thing, which is going to occupy our attention for a good deal of this seminar. They don't fall down and worship. They don't really have any name for what it is that is, really and basically. The idea of anatman, of non-self, is applied in Buddhism not only to the individual ego, but also to the notion that there is a self of the universe, a kind of impersonal or personal god, and so it is generally supposed that Buddhism is generally atheistic. It's true, depending on what you mean by atheism. Common or garden atheism is a form of belief, namely that I believe there is no god--and Hans Enkel[?] is its prophet. (I'm speaking of a famous atheist). The atheist positively denies the existence of any god. All right. Now, there is such an atheist, if you put dash between the 'a' and 'theist,' or speak about something called 'atheos'--'theos' in Greek means 'god'--but what is a non-god? A non-god is an inconceivable something or other.




That's because atheism IS a bit like nihilism.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890889 -

Nihilism grows out of Atheism like a beautiful flower.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5890904 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
I'm not an atheist, but I think the pluses of atheism are obvious:

-first of all, the number one reason is sexual freedom.
There is nothing above mans urge to screw someone or something, and you can get a person to do anything and believe in anything if you appeal to his sexual urges.

-There are no standards to which you have to behave and think other than those you accept yourself or are enforced to by by guns.

-it does not require any kind of understanding or thinking: you are an animal, there is no god, period, no deeper philosophy in it.

-human life is a coincidence, therefore people hold no responsibility to do or be anything, they can just sit around all day and do nothing, or eat till they get 200kg, it doesn't matter, because the universe does not care wheather they are here or not.



One can have standards without believing in a supernatural deity.  This argument against atheism/agnosticism is tired and old.  Ethical standards, personal responsibility, compassion, love, ambition, philosophy, meaningfulness, philanthropy, self-discipline, are all independent of the fear and worship of G-O-D.

All the behaviors you attribute to atheism are regularly practiced by those who call themselves believers.  How is their professed belief in God preventing their animal nature from running wild?  Or is the argument here that true believers never misbehave, due to their heartfelt faith in an all-loving, vengeful father figure?

I am more agnostic than atheist, as I believe it is impossible to either prove OR disprove the existence of supernatural beings.

I have not seen nor experienced any evidence of the existence of the Christian God, but leave open the possibility that a conscious energy empowers and enlivens the Universe.

It seems highly unlikely to me that this energy is concerned with our choice of sexual partners, overconsumption of food, or candidate for President.  :rolleyes:


I say other than those standards you accept yourself.

Sure you can believe in love and order, but you don't have to, nothing is telling you you should. It's just a choice. It doesn't make you a better person to believe in love and peace, because there is no such thing as a better person, just different person

Yea, energies don't care about your sex life, but Jehowah was never described as energy. But rather as a god that can get angry, has demands and fights a war with his oponent.
You might consider him evil, but he does not answer to morality, because he invented it for people.

p.s. There are very little true believers. I never met a person living like Jesus did, therefore I'm not comparing atheists and christians. Most christians are fools and do not represent Biblical teachings


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/23/06 03:02 PM)

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5890923 -

It's such an extreme position though. It's like saying that the universe exists, or that it doesn't exist, or that it both exists and doesn't exist, or that it neither exists nor doesn't exist. They're all extremes.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5890928 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"It seems highly unlikely to me that this energy is concerned with our choice of sexual partners, overconsumption of food, or candidate for President."

You mean George Bush wasn't chosen by God?


He is here to lead the way to the antichrist, which is good because I'm really tired of waiting


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5890934 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Nihilism grows out of Atheism like a beautiful flower.


Yea.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5890950 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Nihilism grows out of Atheism like a beautiful flower.


But it's even better when Existentialism grows out of Nihilism.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890952 -

Yeah I'm an atheist but I still have morals. I still try to be a good person treat people with respect. My lack of religion doesn't impose a rude or ignorant person on my part.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890967 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
I say other than those standards you accept yourself.

Sure you can believe in love and order, but you don't have to, nothing is telling you you should. It's just a choice.


Nothing is forcing theists to believe in love and order, either.  They choose to accept the standards proposed within the religious text passed down to them by other believers.  This is still "just" a choice, as is the choice to engage in hypocritical actions once one has professed to a set of beliefs.  :shrug:

Quote:
Yea, energies don't care about your sex life, but Jehowah was never described as energy. But rather as a god that can get angry, has demands and fights a war with his oponent.
You might consider him evil, but he does not answer to morality, because he invented it for people.


I don't judge things as "evil" or "good," as I am not religious.  I do not believe in the Christian version of God, so I was not referring to  the vengeful Big Daddy when I said I was open to the idea of a conscious energy force.  As I believe the Christian God was made up by people, I do not bother considering the hypothetical moral qualities of said invention.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891009 -

I didn't mean that god is forcing someone to think something, but existence of god does give polarity to the life, there is a right way for things and a wrong way, there is light and there is dark, dark brings destruction and light brings creation.
Without god, there is no such polarity, nothing matters outside of people.
If George Bush decides to nuke my country, it wouldn't matter, he would still be a good person, or a bad person, or whatever, just a person. There is no polarity saying its good or bad.
And without such polarity, it is even foolish not to take advantage of everything that life gives you because you are holding yourself back.
Without god, the world as it is is a perfect place, because it is such because the current balance of powers, everyone gets what they deserve.

I've never heard an atheist argument against murder for example.
That's because there is no argument against murder. The only true argument is you'll end up in jail because of people who are addicted to religious-like notions of what should and what should not be.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/23/06 03:17 PM)

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891031 -

Without the concept of an absolute authority there would be no moral compass? I think that's a heap of poop.

There is self-interest. Sooner or later people discover that in order to be happy, the best thing to do is to make others happy (and if they don't figure that out, then they generally don't lead very long or enjoyable lives). Biologically speaking, survival is good. The best way to survive is through being peaceful and loving. War and hatred are not conducive to happiness or survival.

Dare I say that the concept of God has actually created a great many more problems than it has solved (though not to say that it hasn't helped many).


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Newbie]
    #5891036 -

NewbieShroomie said:
Yeah I'm an atheist but I still have morals. I still try to be a good person treat people with respect. My lack of religion doesn't impose a rude or ignorant person on my part.


So you treat people with respect, and why does that make you a good person?
Because in dictionary it says that a good person treats people with respect?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891044 -

So we do not experience positive and negative consequences of our choices if God does not exist?  :confused:

Destruction and creation, order and chaos, positivity and negativity, hope and despair, love and hate, all exist independent of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Bogey man, God, gremlins, E.T., the Grinch, etc...etc...

Why is a fictional character essential to the meaning (or lack thereof) of existence?  Why would polarities cease to exist?

This argument does not make sense to me.

Quote:
I've never heard an atheist argument against murder for example.
That's because there is no argument against murder. The only true argument is you'll end up in jail because of people who are addicted to religious-like notions of what should and what should not be.


I do not wish to be murdered, nor for anyone else to be murdered, therefore I do not want others to be allowed to commit murder. My life belongs to me, and I don't want it to be taken from me.  Others have the same right to ownership of their lives, including the absolute right to commit suicide.

No religion necessary.  No fear of punishment necessary.  No God necessary. 

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891066 -

Fractalated said:
The best way to survive is through being peaceful and loving. War and hatred are not conducive to happiness or survival.



The only thing holding this civilisation together are guns, police and more guns. If it weren't for the law, people would live as they want to live, and then I'd ask you again wheather you can survive by being peacefull when every night someone would come to rob your house because you have something they don't or would rape your woman simply because she turns them on.
Look at nature, look at monkeys, that's how people would live if someone didn't hold a gun over their face 24/7


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891080 -

Veritas said:
So we do not experience positive and negative consequences of our choices if God does not exist?  :confused:

Destruction and creation, order and chaos, positivity and negativity, hope and despair, love and hate, all exist independent of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Bogey man, God, gremlins, E.T., the Grinch, etc...etc...

Why is a fictional character essential to the meaning (or lack thereof) of existence?  Why would polarities cease to exist?

This argument does not make sense to me.

Quote:
I've never heard an atheist argument against murder for example.
That's because there is no argument against murder. The only true argument is you'll end up in jail because of people who are addicted to religious-like notions of what should and what should not be.


I do not wish to be murdered, nor for anyone else to be murdered, therefore I do not want others to be allowed to commit murder. My life belongs to me, and I don't want it to be taken from me.  Others have the same right to ownership of their lives, including the absolute right to commit suicide.

No religion necessary.  No fear of punishment necessary.  No God necessary. 


Ok, without using any religious terminology, how do you define positive and negative?

Why is harmony and love positive? What difference does it make wheather people love each other or kill each other? It only makes difference to you , and projecting your own preferences to everyone is selfish.

Another human beings has as much right to kill you as you have right to not be killed. Mother nature doesn't care either way, you are just a coincidence


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891090 -

Why would someone want to rob if people learned to share? If people were capable of sharing, then there wouldn't be people so desperate that they turn to robery.

Not everyone rapes someone just because they're pretty. In fact, I would bet that the vast majority of people wouldn't rape someone even if they had the opportunity to do so without the police getting involved. Sex is an expression of love. Generally speaking, rapists have become sexually perverted or at some point in their psychological development they came to associate the pain of others with sexual pleasure.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891103 -

Fractalated said:
Why would someone want to rob if people learned to share? If people were capable of sharing, then there wouldn't be people so desperate that they turn to robery.

Not everyone rapes someone just because they're pretty. In fact, I would bet that the vast majority of people wouldn't rape someone even if they had the opportunity to do so without the police getting involved. Sex is an expression of love. Generally speaking, rapists have become sexually perverted or at some point in their psychological development they came to associate the pain of others with sexual pleasure.


But they don't know how to share, and they wouldn't learn because people never learn anything. If they didn't we wouldn't be in the same position as we were 3000 years ago or 2000 years ago or 200 years ago. History teaches us that people didn't change from the stone age. Only technology changed.
People don't know how to share, period. The best you can do is protect yourself from their greed


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891112 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Ok, without using any religious terminology, how do you define positive and negative?

Why is harmony and love positive? What difference does it make wheather people love each other or kill each other? It only makes difference to you, and projecting your own preferences to everyone is selfish.


Without using "religious" terminology?  You mean "good" and "evil"? 

I'm a hedonist, so harmony and love are positive because they feel better than disharmony and hatred.  :heart: 

How is projecting my (and any other healthy, sane humans') preferences any more selfish than projecting the preferences of ancient humans?  (i.e. authors of the Bible, inventors of God)

Quote:
Another human beings has as much right to kill you as you have right to not be killed. Mother nature doesn't care either way, you are just a coincidence


Mother Nature?  Who's she?  :grin:

No, other human beings have just as much right to end their own life as I do to end mine.  Why would they have any rights concerning me?  You insist that, without God, there are no rules...this is a very narrow POV.  Humans have been making up behavioral rules for almost as long as they have been making up supernatural beings.  :grin:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891131 -

Power gives right. If they have the power to control your life, then they have the right to do so. It's simple darvinism, it's everywhere in nature.

What gives a right for one gorilla to lead others? Because he can kill others with one hit of his hand


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891149 -

Darwin was not a philosopher.  :grin:

There are many ways of establishing and enforcing rights, and violence is only one of these methods.  Cooperation is a powerful force, and will make the difference in this world if anything can.

Humans are animals, but we are also thinkers, with the capacity for great compassion and wisdom.  Not everyone lives a respectful, concerned life because of a gun held to their head.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891150 -

But they don't know how to share, and they wouldn't learn because people never learn anything.

All behavior is learned. Everything you do is based on conditioning. Even what you think. If the wholesome seeds in a person's consciousness are watered, then they will grow. If unwholesome seeds are watered, then they will grow. Right now, there are many unwholesome seeds being watered all over the world, especially through the media.

If people start watering wholesome seeds in themselves and in others, then they will most certainly change and learn.

The best you can do is protect yourself from their greed

I'm not so sure. If you protect yourself from their greed, you could very easily water the seeds of suspicion, greed, violence, and distrust. I think the best thing to do is to not be greedy yourself, and try to water wholesome seeds in the consciousness of anyone who is greedy.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891159 -

Might does whatever it pleases. Might does NOT necessarily make right.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891161 -

Greed gives you more materials for survival, that's its very purpuse. Why should one avoid greed?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891169 -

I disagree. Greed occurs when you have enough, but still want more and more for yourself.

"The earth has enough for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed."
- Gandhi


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891171 -

Greed, by definition, is practiced by taking more than you need to survive.

Quote:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth


Being greedy does not aid survival, it is a sign of emotional imbalance and fear-based living.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891182 -

Veritas said:
Darwin was not a philosopher.  :grin:

There are many ways of establishing and enforcing rights, and violence is only one of these methods.  Cooperation is a powerful force, and will make the difference in this world if anything can.

Humans are animals, but we are also thinkers, with the capacity for great compassion and wisdom.  Not everyone lives a respectful, concerned life because of a gun held to their head.


Darvin only saw how nature works.

How does cooperation gives one man a right to kill another? The other one surely won't cooperate.

The only way you can do something is if you can get away with it.
If you can all is well, if you can't, that means you had no right in the first place.

It's same with laws, laws exist only where there are policemen or people who believe in them.
Same is with rights. If you are surrounded with people who believe you have rights, then you have them. Or if you are surrounded by people who don't believe in your rights and you are strong enough to enforce your rights, again you have them.
But you have to earn them either with convincing others, or with forcing them. Convicing them in your rights is a lie, and forcing them is violence.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891185 -

Veritas said:
Greed, by definition, is practiced by taking more than you need to survive.

Quote:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth


Being greedy does not aid survival, it is a sign of emotional imbalance and fear-based living.


Then how come only greedy animals survive the winter?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891203 -

Christian-sponsored hospitals, clinics, schools, colleges, homeless shelters, halfway houses, and other educational and charitable organizations by far outnumber secular-sponsored ones. Christian charity exceeds secular charity by incredible amounts. Yet, Christianity is only twice the size of secular group. (~2 billion Christians/~1 billion non-religious).

It's a fact, religious people practice charity better than non-religious people. This has been proved over and over.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891218 -

Let's not kid ourselves. There are no 2 billion christians, maybe a couple of thousands, the rest are just hypocrites


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891223 -

That makes the charitable contributions in the name of Christianity even more impressive then, if only a small % is to credit.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891229 -

I don't really think the animals are being that greedy. There is a lot of demand for certain natural resources from various animals right before the winter starts. There isn't a huge supply. They take what they can get, which very often isn't enough.

Humans on the other hand, we have starving people in many, many countries, yet we dump perfectly good food in the ocean solely because of greed for money. We have enough resources for everyone, but some people horde them. Accordingly, there isn't enough for everyone, so some resort to theft, some to violence, others resign and die.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891234 -

spud said:
That makes the charitable contributions in the name of Christianity even more impressive then, if only a small % is to credit.


It's so easy to throw money, you just have to have it, and then throw it. That's not charity, it's money throwing


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891240 -

Fractalated said:
I don't really think the animals are being that greedy. There is a lot of demand for certain natural resources from various animals right before the winter starts. There isn't a huge supply. They take what they can get, which very often isn't enough.

Humans on the other hand, we have starving people in many, many countries, yet we dump perfectly good food in the ocean solely because of greed for money. We have enough resources for everyone, but some people horde them. Accordingly, there isn't enough for everyone, so some resort to theft, some to violence, others resign and die.


And why do you blame them? If the hungry can't correct this "injustice" then they deserve to be hungry. That's nature.
In nature you always get what you deserve


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891244 -

In my experience with the church, very often you find those with the least giving the most.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891251 -

I don't blame them. I blame those who horde and who give in to unwholesome greed and covetousness.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891258 -

spud said:
In my experience with the church, very often you find those with the least giving the most.


well accoarding to these people you are eithre delusional or are lying


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891263 -

According to who exactly? I haven't read this thread in it's entirety.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891277 -

Fractalated said:
I don't blame them. I blame those who horde and who give in to unwholesome greed and covetousness.


Why do you blame them?

You know why I think you blaim them? Because even if you don't see it, religious concepts are hardwired inside of your head.
You were conditioned to judge. Nature doesn't judge, only people who think there is some universal law judge, and those people taught you how to think


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891285 -

spud said:
According to who exactly? I haven't read this thread in it's entirety.


Well most atheists I've talked to keep saying how concept of god does not help humanity, yet it's funny because their wery idea of what it means to "help" is conditioned by religious collective consciousness (through culture, raising etc.)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891287 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
spud said:
In my experience with the church, very often you find those with the least giving the most.


well accoarding to these people you are eithre delusional or are lying


"These people"?  To whom are you referring?  You are the only person posting in this thread who claims that humans are violent, selfish animals who refrain from bloody murder only because they fear God or a gunshot wound.  :rolleyes:

By percentage of income, I have heard that those in lower income brackets do donate more than the middle and upper income brackets.  Go figure.  Perhaps their struggles have helped them develop compassion for the less fortunate.  :shrug:

Whether religion teaches compassion is debatable, however.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891303 -

It's debatable because religion is far too broad of scope. Same can be said for philosophy, I can reference some prolific Nazi/fascist philosophers who published a great deal of literature. I can also reference prolific philosophers who published incredibly beneficial moral theories.

Religion is inanimate, compassion is animate. It's the teachers who give religion life, and it rests in the hands of the teachers to illustrate compassion in their lives. Whether the teacher be the individual or a third party, is irrelevant.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891304 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
spud said:
According to who exactly? I haven't read this thread in it's entirety.


Well most atheists I've talked to keep saying how concept of god does not help humanity, yet it's funny because their wery idea of what it means to "help" is conditioned by religious collective consciousness (through culture, raising etc.)


Yes, there is no way for humans to understand what it means to help someone without religious indoctrination.  :rolleyes:

If someone is suffering, a compassionate, empathetic human will desire to alleviate their suffering.  Where is the religion in this?

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891308 -

Not because they FEAR god, but because they believe in right and wrong given by god, because they believe some things matter outside the mind of human beings.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891315 -

On the subject of Christian charity - Warren Buffet - "I did not subscribe to my family's religion. Even at a young age I was too mathematical, too logical, to make the leap of faith. I adopted my father's ethical underpinnings, but not his belief in an unseen divinity". Bill Gates - "The specific elements of Christianity are not something I'm a huge believer in." QED

OldWoodSpecter - you have an extremely negitive view of the world, that might be improved by excersize.
How monkeys behave - Bonobo apes are non(minimally)-violent social apes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Social_behavior
Bonobos and common chimpanzies are our closest cousins in the animal world, each sharing about 98.5% common DNA. Chimps are notoriously violent, but Bonobo's are not.

Social behavior is not predicted by religion. Many religious people are liers and cheats, and many more non-religious are honest, non-violent, and kind.


To get finally to the initial question - I don't consider myself an atheist, but I do disbelieve in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god. As for why, see the Warren Buffet quote above - I have simply never believed.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891316 -

Veritas said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
spud said:
According to who exactly? I haven't read this thread in it's entirety.


Well most atheists I've talked to keep saying how concept of god does not help humanity, yet it's funny because their wery idea of what it means to "help" is conditioned by religious collective consciousness (through culture, raising etc.)


Yes, there is no way for humans to understand what it means to help someone without religious indoctrination.  :rolleyes:

If someone is suffering, a compassionate, empathetic human will desire to alleviate their suffering.  Where is the religion in this?


I give up, you are right and I am wrong.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891325 -

Alleviation of suffering is something most sane beings will do IMO, it's not even an issue of being a very compassion person. What religion offers is going beyond simple compassion, and that is charity. Charity requires a certain level of empathy usually not made apparent in the secular without the divine. The incredibly high levels of charity in relation to religion are proof of this, as are the incredibly low levels of charity in comparison when in relation to the non-religious.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891326 -

spud said:
Religion is inanimate, compassion is animate. It's the teachers who give religion life, and it rests in the hands of the teachers to illustrate compassion in their lives. Whether the teacher be the individual or a third party, is irrelevant.


I agree. I would add that compassion exists with or without belief in God, or the practice of a religion. The same is true for ethics, self-discipline, philanthropy, etc...

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891327 -

For the record, I've been an atheist my entire life until about a month or so ago.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891328 -

George Soros is also atheist -
Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, George Soros - these are the greatest philanthropists of the day. How can you say that charity is Christian?

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891338 -

It's always about money isn't it? Just throw money around and you are a saint? I bet Bill Gates wouldn't let one of those people who he is feeing enter his living room to keep his carpet clean


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891341 -

Hah, those who donate with incomes such as that do not impress me.

Seeing families who have not enough to feed themselves donate every single penny laying around the house impresses me.

I'm talking out statistical fact here, even Veritas mentioned it about charity. In relation to income, those with the lowest income donate the most, and those who are religious donate far more regularly than those who are secular. Naming 3 people who happen to be rich, secular, and philanthropists doesn't say much.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891344 -

I don't claim those men are saints - Soros in particular is a bit crazy. I'm just trying to refute a specific point Spud made about the relationship between charity and religion, and those high-profile cases are just what came to mind.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891345 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Fractalated said:
I don't blame them. I blame those who horde and who give in to unwholesome greed and covetousness.


Why do you blame them?

You know why I think you blaim them? Because even if you don't see it, religious concepts are hardwired inside of your head.
You were conditioned to judge. Nature doesn't judge, only people who think there is some universal law judge, and those people taught you how to think


Well perhaps 'blame' was the wrong word. I should have said that IMO, those sorts of people practice unwholesome deeds and lifestyles, and plant unwholesome seeds in the consciousness of others. This leads to the world being in the state it is in.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891356 -

If you are trying to argue that the religious are even nearly as charitable as the secular, that is completely absurd. I'd say about 95% of every school, hospital, and library within proximity of me is Christian sponsored. If you don't believe this, I'd be more than happy to reference any building around me you inquire about.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891365 -

I found an interesting article on the subject of religion and charity:

Quote:
On the other hand, the connection between religiosity and generosity might be more earth-bound: It might be that religion simply has a strong pedagogical (endogenous) influence over giving and volunteering.

Houses of worship might teach their congregants the religious duty to give, and about both the physical and spiritual needs of the poor. Simply put, people may be more likely to learn charity inside a church, synagogue, or mosque than outside.

If charity is indeed a learned behavior, it may be that houses of worship are only one means (albeit an especially efficacious one) to teach it.

Secularists interested in increasing charitable giving and volunteering among their ranks might spend some effort thinking of alternative ways to foster these habits.


http://www.policyreview.org/oct03/brooks.html

I think that this is an excellent point. The church is responsible for the socialization of the "flock," and charity is one of the ways to gain acceptance within that social group. Those who are not religious would not gain the same social "currency" through charitable work, and are less likely to be frequently exposed to the idea of donating their time and/or money.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891369 -

phi1618 said:
I don't claim those men are saints - Soros in particular is a bit crazy. I'm just trying to refute a specific point Spud made about the relationship between charity and religion, and those high-profile cases are just what came to mind.


That's not charity. Charity is when you accept a flee infested african child into your home and decide to take care of it till it gets a job. Or when you take an old person and bathe it every day till he dies.
Or when you risk your life nursing people dying of contageous diseases that could easilly kill you.

Money is worthless, money doesn't give people love. It doesn't solve an emotional hole in their lives. It doesn't give them light in life.

The only thing money-throwing does is releave the rich of their guilt.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891378 -

Quote:
Seeing families who have not enough to feed themselves donate every single penny laying around the house impresses me.



That's just stupid. Poor people need to take care of themselves before they worry about other people's problems. The amount of good that the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation will and has accomplished outwheighs by several times any single Christian charity, because it's well run and has the vast resources provided by two very strong and intelligent people.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891381 -

spud said:
If you are trying to argue that the religious are even nearly as charitable as the secular, that is completely absurd. I'd say about 95% of every school, hospital, and library within proximity of me is Christian sponsored. If you don't believe this, I'd be more than happy to reference any building around me you inquire about.


Really? Do you live in the U.S.? All of the schools & libraries in my area are state/county funded. The hospitals are private, for-profit businesses, with no religious associations.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891382 -

Veritas said:
I found an interesting article on the subject of religion and charity:

Quote:
On the other hand, the connection between religiosity and generosity might be more earth-bound: It might be that religion simply has a strong pedagogical (endogenous) influence over giving and volunteering.

Houses of worship might teach their congregants the religious duty to give, and about both the physical and spiritual needs of the poor. Simply put, people may be more likely to learn charity inside a church, synagogue, or mosque than outside.

If charity is indeed a learned behavior, it may be that houses of worship are only one means (albeit an especially efficacious one) to teach it.

Secularists interested in increasing charitable giving and volunteering among their ranks might spend some effort thinking of alternative ways to foster these habits.


http://www.policyreview.org/oct03/brooks.html

I think that this is an excellent point. The church is responsible for the socialization of the "flock," and charity is one of the ways to gain acceptance within that social group. Those who are not religious would not gain the same social "currency" through charitable work, and are less likely to be frequently exposed to the idea of donating their time and/or money.


I'm not really interested why it's being done, all I'm concerned with is the fact that is is being done. And who is it being done by? The religious.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891392 -

Veritas said:
spud said:
If you are trying to argue that the religious are even nearly as charitable as the secular, that is completely absurd. I'd say about 95% of every school, hospital, and library within proximity of me is Christian sponsored. If you don't believe this, I'd be more than happy to reference any building around me you inquire about.


Really? Do you live in the U.S.? All of the schools & libraries in my area are state/county funded. The hospitals are private, for-profit businesses, with no religious associations.


Yes, but I live in a very Republican oriented California city. I've visited some of the states on the "Bible Belt" though, and you wouldn't believe how things are run there. Everything is Christian sponsored. Everything.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891397 -

OK, that's your choice, I suppose. I am interested in socialization, and how it may be used as a force for social change, rather than just maintaining the status quo. It seems to me that Christians would be interested in non-believers becoming more charitable, whether they were converted to religion or not. If charitable giving/volunteering is primarily based in the socialization received by some Christians, why not promote secular giving through non-faith-based channels?

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891419 -

You are missing the point in it's entirety. Charity is a result of a certain pathology, a pathology I deem necessary. One incredibly rich atheist donating loads of money speaks nothing to me, for it says nothing of the pathos of the secular mind. We are talking about the people as a population, not the extreme variables. Most of the secular lack charity. And charity isn't just throwing money to a cause. In Christian theology charity is the greatest of the three theological virtues. It is heavily intertwined with love. I couldn't care less how much Bill Gates donates, what bothers me is the apathetic mind frame of the secular.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891422 -

The church does promote secular giving through non-faith-based channels. Are you familiar with Unitarianism?

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891448 -

Unitarianism is as close to a secular church as you're likely to find.

Another example of secular charity - the International Red Cross, an organiztion established by a Swiss buisnessman (presumably a Christian, based on his nationality and era) as a direct reaction to witnessing the terrible suffering resulting from a large battle.

Kindness and helping people are not limited to churches, and many churches are more obsessed with their political causes than with actually helping people. Additionally, much of Christian international charity is linked to evangelical efforts.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891475 -

Yes, but the community type charity seems to be pretty much unique to religion.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891534 -

A prominent charity in my area in which many young professionals (secular and not) volunteer - it's funded primarily by businesses and fundraisers:
Give Back Cincinnati

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
    #5891556 -

The biggest religious/secular type charitable church organization in my area is, I believe, the Unitarian Universalist Association (http://www.uua.org/)

I've actually been meaning to check out one of their churches for a while now.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
    #5891601 -

spud said:
I've actually been meaning to check out one of their churches for a while now.


Every month, this gnostic church rents out a room at the local Unitarian Universalist center in my area.


--------------------

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5891608 -

Silversoul said:
spud said:
I've actually been meaning to check out one of their churches for a while now.


Every month, this gnostic church rents out a room at the local Unitarian Universalist center.


That's awesome. I actually live near a large Gnostic church. I'm too scared to check it out though, out of fear it was hijacked by New Age crystal worshiping, alien fearing Christians.  :grin:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5891967 -

But it's even better when Existentialism grows out of Nihilism.

Either the Ubermensch nobly rises up out of nihilism or insanity envelopes nihilism as horrifically as the ideations of the Divine Marquis.  :grin:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5892011 -

Being greedy does not aid survival, it is a sign of emotional imbalance and fear-based living.

Imagine two domesticated primates. One of these primates, named Bob, is very greedy. The other, named Merv, is not greedy at all. Merv only takes what he needs. Due to the greed of Bob, he accummulates a pile of coconuts in his treehouse. Merv, on the other hand, has no pile. Both Merv and Bob have two young offspring, too young to gather food.

As expected, a malicious gang of females from Venus come to Earth and steal all the coconuts from the trees, then watch Oprah and leave. Which primate family has a better chance of surviving?

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5892038 -

Oh, sure, throw the "malicious female apes from Venus" argument into the mix.  :mad:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5892052 -

I'm afraid of girls...

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5892130 -

Don't worry, just hoard enough coconuts & you will survive the XX onslaught.  :wink:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5892498 -

Thats the plan.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5892633 -

Whoa this thread blew up...

OldWoodSpecter said:
religious concepts are hardwired inside of your head.


I think that is how everything is.

We're born and our parents put restrictions/laws/rules down in training us. Religions are another factor that shapes us as growing up. Then there's society, friends, and the law police enforce. All in all, we are not free. We're insecure of all these invisible/imaginary eyes looking at us to see if we screw up.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #5899270 -

First and foremost, it appears to follow logically that a world without omnipotent ruler/judge necessarily exists without a standard code or morality with which people may align themselves. If people choose to act 'ethically' or 'morally' but suggest they do so without the guidance of a presumed deity, it is likely through an all-too-common delusion in which they fail to see the influence of others' theistic worldviews on their own lives. I lack a belief in god, I lack a defined moral structure. Rational self-interest is the closest to an ethical format my logical processes follow. There is a distinction, however, to be made between describing an ethos based upon an observation of one's various decisions and interactions vs. elucidating an ethos which deterministically drives an individual to make particular decisions. The observed processes could be more effect than cause.

This is not to say, however, that natural laws (necessarily derived from a succession of events) and probabalistic pressures which allow me to simultaneously exist safely and exploitatively do not come into play at various levels. Cultural and theistic relativism, however, negate the potential for me to soundly declare one person's actions as more moral than another's. Altruism is one such pressure of probability, though the concept seems generally to be facetiously fertilized by the disappointing assumptions of individuals that benefits will be reaped directly or commensurately. Altruism is, however, simply one of many varyingly effective social survival mechanisms and cannot be adopted as a standard law anymore than the highly contentious might-is-right evolutionary pressure.

Much of this thread has been derailed by an attempt to suggest that the charitable actions prevalent throughout theistically-inculcated cultures connotes beneficial attributes of a theistic worldview. To be sure, attempts at charity and altruism are virulently spread through the established memetic channels of theistic dogma; such a concept, however, does nothing to validate charity or altruism as beneficial. Plenty of arguments (many focusing on the obligatory indoctrination or presumed allegiance of recipients of charity -- ie limiting of freedoms) are easily presented to contradict the presumed benefits of altruism. Ultimately, however, any attempt to act altruistically must be evaluated by the filter of rational self-interest, and being consequently refuted as little more than a sheep in wolf's clothing (sic), the altruistic argument is again laid to rest in an unmarked grave.

Nobody wants something for nothing, even if they may honestly plead conscious ignorance of their own underlying motivations. The prevalence of charity among religious organisations is little more than an extension of the inherently dishonest attempt by the theistic meme to undermine the basic freedoms a secular mind is opportuned to entertain.

FWIW, to colombo (who seems to have suggested that the atheist alone is faced with either rational self-interest or the threat of violence [which, logically, is reducible to rational self-interest]): if one begins from the basis that free will exists among human beings, then even he who believes in a deity must necessarily have chosen his path. Thus it is all reduced to rational self-interest. The paradox for theists, of course, is how they could simultaneously follow a path of logic and suspend their adherence to the concept of logic.

For anybody else who applauds the support of a populace that cannot exist within its means (ie welfare, charity, etc), consider the fact you are artificially sustaining that populace only so that it can grow to a size even further outside of its means. Let a population of 1000 go hungry until its number falls within its means of survival (say 700) or feed the population of 1000 until it reaches 2500 and let that same 2500 descend back to its means of survival (700). Malthusian dynamics at work. For myco-related value, this is not particularly estranged from the feedback mechanism thought to regulate the beneficial addition of tryptophan decarboxylase to spawn as a means of increased alkaloid production. Even with the additional TDC (charitable donation of food), the resultant increase of tryptamine (recipient population) ultimately devours itself at an expedited rate. LOL

For any self-described atheists feeling remorse over a paucity of secular charity or altruism, get over it -- freeing yourself from the entrapments of a godslave requires you to restate your assumptions about how the world progresses and what role you'd like to play. Start from the logical foundation of a lack of belief in god and see where your value system extends.

PS: 'Greed' is a human concept utilized to describe behaviors in contradiction to a moral premise. As such, it is arguably not transferrable to the biologically-propogated feedback systems of the generic animal kingdom. The possibility that our own conscious will is a disguise of the very same feedback systems does little more than reinforce the argument against the aforementioned construct of morality.


--------------------
peacefromabovecloudtop


Edited by cloudtop (07/25/06 07:21 PM)

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