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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891327 - 07/23/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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For the record, I've been an atheist my entire life until about a month or so ago.
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phi1618
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891328 - 07/23/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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George Soros is also atheist - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, George Soros - these are the greatest philanthropists of the day. How can you say that charity is Christian?
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891338 - 07/23/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's always about money isn't it? Just throw money around and you are a saint? I bet Bill Gates wouldn't let one of those people who he is feeing enter his living room to keep his carpet clean
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891341 - 07/23/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hah, those who donate with incomes such as that do not impress me.
Seeing families who have not enough to feed themselves donate every single penny laying around the house impresses me.
I'm talking out statistical fact here, even Veritas mentioned it about charity. In relation to income, those with the lowest income donate the most, and those who are religious donate far more regularly than those who are secular. Naming 3 people who happen to be rich, secular, and philanthropists doesn't say much.
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phi1618
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I don't claim those men are saints - Soros in particular is a bit crazy. I'm just trying to refute a specific point Spud made about the relationship between charity and religion, and those high-profile cases are just what came to mind.
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
Fractalated said: I don't blame them. I blame those who horde and who give in to unwholesome greed and covetousness.
Why do you blame them?
You know why I think you blaim them? Because even if you don't see it, religious concepts are hardwired inside of your head. You were conditioned to judge. Nature doesn't judge, only people who think there is some universal law judge, and those people taught you how to think
Well perhaps 'blame' was the wrong word. I should have said that IMO, those sorts of people practice unwholesome deeds and lifestyles, and plant unwholesome seeds in the consciousness of others. This leads to the world being in the state it is in.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891356 - 07/23/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you are trying to argue that the religious are even nearly as charitable as the secular, that is completely absurd. I'd say about 95% of every school, hospital, and library within proximity of me is Christian sponsored. If you don't believe this, I'd be more than happy to reference any building around me you inquire about.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891365 - 07/23/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I found an interesting article on the subject of religion and charity:
Quote:
On the other hand, the connection between religiosity and generosity might be more earth-bound: It might be that religion simply has a strong pedagogical (endogenous) influence over giving and volunteering.
Houses of worship might teach their congregants the religious duty to give, and about both the physical and spiritual needs of the poor. Simply put, people may be more likely to learn charity inside a church, synagogue, or mosque than outside.
If charity is indeed a learned behavior, it may be that houses of worship are only one means (albeit an especially efficacious one) to teach it.
Secularists interested in increasing charitable giving and volunteering among their ranks might spend some effort thinking of alternative ways to foster these habits.
http://www.policyreview.org/oct03/brooks.html
I think that this is an excellent point. The church is responsible for the socialization of the "flock," and charity is one of the ways to gain acceptance within that social group. Those who are not religious would not gain the same social "currency" through charitable work, and are less likely to be frequently exposed to the idea of donating their time and/or money.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891369 - 07/23/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
phi1618 said: I don't claim those men are saints - Soros in particular is a bit crazy. I'm just trying to refute a specific point Spud made about the relationship between charity and religion, and those high-profile cases are just what came to mind.
That's not charity. Charity is when you accept a flee infested african child into your home and decide to take care of it till it gets a job. Or when you take an old person and bathe it every day till he dies. Or when you risk your life nursing people dying of contageous diseases that could easilly kill you.
Money is worthless, money doesn't give people love. It doesn't solve an emotional hole in their lives. It doesn't give them light in life.
The only thing money-throwing does is releave the rich of their guilt.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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phi1618
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891378 - 07/23/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seeing families who have not enough to feed themselves donate every single penny laying around the house impresses me.
That's just stupid. Poor people need to take care of themselves before they worry about other people's problems. The amount of good that the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation will and has accomplished outwheighs by several times any single Christian charity, because it's well run and has the vast resources provided by two very strong and intelligent people.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891381 - 07/23/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
spud said: If you are trying to argue that the religious are even nearly as charitable as the secular, that is completely absurd. I'd say about 95% of every school, hospital, and library within proximity of me is Christian sponsored. If you don't believe this, I'd be more than happy to reference any building around me you inquire about.
Really? Do you live in the U.S.? All of the schools & libraries in my area are state/county funded. The hospitals are private, for-profit businesses, with no religious associations.
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
#5891382 - 07/23/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I found an interesting article on the subject of religion and charity:
Quote:
On the other hand, the connection between religiosity and generosity might be more earth-bound: It might be that religion simply has a strong pedagogical (endogenous) influence over giving and volunteering.
Houses of worship might teach their congregants the religious duty to give, and about both the physical and spiritual needs of the poor. Simply put, people may be more likely to learn charity inside a church, synagogue, or mosque than outside.
If charity is indeed a learned behavior, it may be that houses of worship are only one means (albeit an especially efficacious one) to teach it.
Secularists interested in increasing charitable giving and volunteering among their ranks might spend some effort thinking of alternative ways to foster these habits.
http://www.policyreview.org/oct03/brooks.html
I think that this is an excellent point. The church is responsible for the socialization of the "flock," and charity is one of the ways to gain acceptance within that social group. Those who are not religious would not gain the same social "currency" through charitable work, and are less likely to be frequently exposed to the idea of donating their time and/or money.
I'm not really interested why it's being done, all I'm concerned with is the fact that is is being done. And who is it being done by? The religious.
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
#5891392 - 07/23/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
spud said: If you are trying to argue that the religious are even nearly as charitable as the secular, that is completely absurd. I'd say about 95% of every school, hospital, and library within proximity of me is Christian sponsored. If you don't believe this, I'd be more than happy to reference any building around me you inquire about.
Really? Do you live in the U.S.? All of the schools & libraries in my area are state/county funded. The hospitals are private, for-profit businesses, with no religious associations.
Yes, but I live in a very Republican oriented California city. I've visited some of the states on the "Bible Belt" though, and you wouldn't believe how things are run there. Everything is Christian sponsored. Everything.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891397 - 07/23/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK, that's your choice, I suppose. I am interested in socialization, and how it may be used as a force for social change, rather than just maintaining the status quo. It seems to me that Christians would be interested in non-believers becoming more charitable, whether they were converted to religion or not. If charitable giving/volunteering is primarily based in the socialization received by some Christians, why not promote secular giving through non-faith-based channels?
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891419 - 07/23/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You are missing the point in it's entirety. Charity is a result of a certain pathology, a pathology I deem necessary. One incredibly rich atheist donating loads of money speaks nothing to me, for it says nothing of the pathos of the secular mind. We are talking about the people as a population, not the extreme variables. Most of the secular lack charity. And charity isn't just throwing money to a cause. In Christian theology charity is the greatest of the three theological virtues. It is heavily intertwined with love. I couldn't care less how much Bill Gates donates, what bothers me is the apathetic mind frame of the secular.
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spud
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
#5891422 - 07/23/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The church does promote secular giving through non-faith-based channels. Are you familiar with Unitarianism?
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phi1618
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891448 - 07/23/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Unitarianism is as close to a secular church as you're likely to find.
Another example of secular charity - the International Red Cross, an organiztion established by a Swiss buisnessman (presumably a Christian, based on his nationality and era) as a direct reaction to witnessing the terrible suffering resulting from a large battle.
Kindness and helping people are not limited to churches, and many churches are more obsessed with their political causes than with actually helping people. Additionally, much of Christian international charity is linked to evangelical efforts.
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891475 - 07/23/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes, but the community type charity seems to be pretty much unique to religion.
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phi1618
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Re: For Atheists... [Re: spud]
#5891534 - 07/23/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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A prominent charity in my area in which many young professionals (secular and not) volunteer - it's funded primarily by businesses and fundraisers: Give Back Cincinnati
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: phi1618]
#5891556 - 07/23/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The biggest religious/secular type charitable church organization in my area is, I believe, the Unitarian Universalist Association (http://www.uua.org/)
I've actually been meaning to check out one of their churches for a while now.
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