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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
atheist vs agnostic vs deist
    #4181791 - 05/16/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Taking the argument of the infinite creator, I find the argument for weak atheism faulty.

A weak atheist would state that...

Either the universe always existed, or it spontaneously came into being.

The atheist argument boils down to the first possibility because I am going to refute the second in this post.

The conclusion that matter could have spontaneously came into existence requires that this matter/energy possesses an inate property that has not been seen through our study of the physical universe. Specifically, the property of coming into existence from non-existence.

So, there is either a property of our universe that has not been discovered that allows spontaneous existence, or a force that is outside the realm of our physical laws caused this spontaneous existence. I will refer to the latter as god.

Either one gives a conundrum in that we can never know something we haven't observed (spontaneous existence), and we can never know something that is outside our existence (god).

Regardless, I'd like to argue in favor of god being the force.

Our current knowledge of physics is something tangible, and many physical laws have been proven. But there is zero evidence for this mysterious physical property of spontaneous existence. Accepting that it may be a force that derived existence is akin to giving credence that any unobserved physical law may also exist. This is an impossibility because our foundation of science is rooted in observation. So without observation, it cannot be even assumed that this possibility exists.

From this, it is safe to deduce that the force must be beyond our current understanding of the physical laws, or the physical laws themselves, in short, this force is god.

Now this still leaves the argument that matter has always existed. But I will stop here for now.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineDoom
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Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4181858 - 05/16/05 01:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

what kind of strange creatures roam the streets thinking *im a weak atheist, I think like this+ x = e + z/b2*

does anyone on gods green earth actually 100% adhere to a concrete definitive ideology? other than religious fundamentalists..., and who truly knows their psychological motivations...

From this, it is safe to deduce that the force must be beyond our current understanding of the physical laws, or the physical laws themselves, in short, this force is god.

????????????????

so, an unexplainable force exists, this force is *god* god being an ununderstandable force. What is your motivation for publicizing such statements? are you trying to convince us all that the unexplainable can be easily given a generic, meaningless label which has a plastic cultural foundation?


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4181896 - 05/16/05 01:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You are playing semantic games only.

Atheist says unknown force or principle.

Deist names the unknown force "God".

There is no difference in these basic stances except in choice of expression.

Where the difference lies, is that most deists will talk about an interactive and caring God and an invisible spirit in us, and there is no evidence for that. Nor do you attempt to get to the heart of this difference, so I do not see where you are trying to go with this.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4181898 - 05/16/05 01:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i don't like any atheists' arguments.. I've never seen them come up with a good one. Agnostics, on the other hand...


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Offlinecherokee
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4182549 - 05/16/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

What if everything was already there and the right conditions had to be met in order for the reaction to become spontaneous? That's a thermodynamics perspective anyways.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4185688 - 05/17/05 10:31 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

From this, it is safe to deduce that the force must be beyond our current understanding of the physical laws, or the physical laws themselves, in short, this force is god.

__________________________________________________________________

So any force that we don't currently understand is God? Man I want some of what you're smokin.

On second thought, no. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: Swami]
    #4185690 - 05/17/05 10:37 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Where the difference lies, is that most deists will talk about an interactive and caring God and an invisible spirit in us, and there is no evidence for that. Nor do you attempt to get to the heart of this difference, so I do not see where you are trying to go with this.



My understanding of deism is that it is the belief that God set the universe in motion and then refrained from interacting with it.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: Silversoul]
    #4185701 - 05/17/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Swami said:
Where the difference lies, is that most deists will talk about an interactive and caring God and an invisible spirit in us, and there is no evidence for that. Nor do you attempt to get to the heart of this difference, so I do not see where you are trying to go with this.





My understanding of deism is that it is the belief that God set the universe in motion and then refrained from interacting with it.




If God is all powerful and everything is contained in him. Then how could he not interact with himself? Or fuckin herself? :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: Icelander]
    #4185702 - 05/17/05 10:44 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Deism is NOT pantheism. Deists do not say that everything is contained within God.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: Silversoul]
    #4185724 - 05/17/05 10:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Cool, little god. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: Icelander]
    #4185745 - 05/17/05 11:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So any force that we don't currently understand is God?

Actually, yes, in a manner of speaking... from a subjective human mind's perspective.

When the mind takes a concept of the known reality and simplifies it into words, it takes away the infinite complication of the concept, to the mind in question.

This is essentially taking a property of the universe and "disconnecting" it from it's God-like qualities.

We make this whole collection of simplified concepts... taking the wonder out of more and more things... we call it knowledge. :rolleyes:

We think we're smart to do this, and you might say we are. :wink: But the truth is that we are removing the "God" from our perception of each concept that we assimilate.

So, for someone who tends to identify with the mind... inside the circle of knowledge = "I", and outside the circle of knowledge (AKA anything we don't currently understand how to "explain away") is God.

This is actually how God can be both part of you and seperate from you at the same time. We are fragmented beings, mentally. Our minds are like broken mirrors... seeing God as seperate from yourself is identifying with one little piece instead of embracing the whole mirror as a whole.

Remember... our individual subjective universe is really just our perceptions of the outter world. It's all just a movie playing on a screen so big you can't see the edges. It's all a part of the internal experience, collectively.

This might just be stoned rambling... have a nice day. :smile:


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Offlinedoufus
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Registered: 10/21/05
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4866425 - 10/29/05 09:29 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Taking the argument of the infinite creator, I find the argument for weak atheism faulty.

A weak atheist would state that...

Either the universe always existed, or it spontaneously came into being.

The atheist argument boils down to the first possibility because I am going to refute the second in this post.

The conclusion that matter could have spontaneously came into existence requires that this matter/energy possesses an inate property that has not been seen through our study of the physical universe. Specifically, the property of coming into existence from non-existence.

So, there is either a property of our universe that has not been discovered that allows spontaneous existence, or a force that is outside the realm of our physical laws caused this spontaneous existence. I will refer to the latter as god.

Either one gives a conundrum in that we can never know something we haven't observed (spontaneous existence), and we can never know something that is outside our existence (god).

Regardless, I'd like to argue in favor of god being the force.

Our current knowledge of physics is something tangible, and many physical laws have been proven. But there is zero evidence for this mysterious physical property of spontaneous existence. Accepting that it may be a force that derived existence is akin to giving credence that any unobserved physical law may also exist. This is an impossibility because our foundation of science is rooted in observation. So without observation, it cannot be even assumed that this possibility exists.

From this, it is safe to deduce that the force must be beyond our current understanding of the physical laws, or the physical laws themselves, in short, this force is god.

Now this still leaves the argument that matter has always existed. But I will stop here for now.




Without being condescending but i always find philosphy funny.
Concepts only go work so far- like trying to describe a 15'
crocodile with no numeracy (solution- use fingers to show width
between the eyes). trying to use logic to explain the mystery?
Godel explained that no system is completely describable within itself. Yet we try.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: looner2]
    #4866534 - 10/29/05 11:04 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

?I suspect the reason is that most people ... have a residue of feeling that Darwinian evolution isn't quite big enough to explain everything about life. All I can say as a biologist is that the feeling disappears progressively the more you read about and study what is known about life and evolution. I want to add one thing more. The more you understand the significance of evolution, the more you are pushed away from the agnostic position and towards atheism. Complex, statistically improbable things are by their nature more difficult to explain than simple, statistically probable things.? --Richard Dawkins


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Offlinekotik
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Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4866569 - 10/29/05 11:30 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

there is zero evidence for this mysterious physical property of spontaneous existence.




right, spontaneity being somewhat untestable... if otherwise, it would not be spontaneous.


--------------------
music: myspace.com/soundscientists
.
I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.

No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: atheist vs agnostic vs deist [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4866735 - 10/29/05 12:48 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
?I suspect the reason is that most people ... have a residue of feeling that Darwinian evolution isn't quite big enough to explain everything about life. All I can say as a biologist is that the feeling disappears progressively the more you read about and study what is known about life and evolution. I want to add one thing more. The more you understand the significance of evolution, the more you are pushed away from the agnostic position and towards atheism. Complex, statistically improbable things are by their nature more difficult to explain than simple, statistically probable things.? --Richard Dawkins





this isn't true considering many biologists believe in God. why is he assuming HIS experience applies to everyone? i want to add one more thing. evolution doesn't even attempt to explain everything about life because it doesn't even attempt to explain why anything exists to begin with, why things move and change, what consciousness is, etc. these things fall more in the realm of physics, not darwinism.


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