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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890952 -

Yeah I'm an atheist but I still have morals. I still try to be a good person treat people with respect. My lack of religion doesn't impose a rude or ignorant person on my part.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5890967 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
I say other than those standards you accept yourself.

Sure you can believe in love and order, but you don't have to, nothing is telling you you should. It's just a choice.


Nothing is forcing theists to believe in love and order, either.  They choose to accept the standards proposed within the religious text passed down to them by other believers.  This is still "just" a choice, as is the choice to engage in hypocritical actions once one has professed to a set of beliefs.  :shrug:

Quote:
Yea, energies don't care about your sex life, but Jehowah was never described as energy. But rather as a god that can get angry, has demands and fights a war with his oponent.
You might consider him evil, but he does not answer to morality, because he invented it for people.


I don't judge things as "evil" or "good," as I am not religious.  I do not believe in the Christian version of God, so I was not referring to  the vengeful Big Daddy when I said I was open to the idea of a conscious energy force.  As I believe the Christian God was made up by people, I do not bother considering the hypothetical moral qualities of said invention.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891009 -

I didn't mean that god is forcing someone to think something, but existence of god does give polarity to the life, there is a right way for things and a wrong way, there is light and there is dark, dark brings destruction and light brings creation.
Without god, there is no such polarity, nothing matters outside of people.
If George Bush decides to nuke my country, it wouldn't matter, he would still be a good person, or a bad person, or whatever, just a person. There is no polarity saying its good or bad.
And without such polarity, it is even foolish not to take advantage of everything that life gives you because you are holding yourself back.
Without god, the world as it is is a perfect place, because it is such because the current balance of powers, everyone gets what they deserve.

I've never heard an atheist argument against murder for example.
That's because there is no argument against murder. The only true argument is you'll end up in jail because of people who are addicted to religious-like notions of what should and what should not be.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/23/06 03:17 PM)

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891031 -

Without the concept of an absolute authority there would be no moral compass? I think that's a heap of poop.

There is self-interest. Sooner or later people discover that in order to be happy, the best thing to do is to make others happy (and if they don't figure that out, then they generally don't lead very long or enjoyable lives). Biologically speaking, survival is good. The best way to survive is through being peaceful and loving. War and hatred are not conducive to happiness or survival.

Dare I say that the concept of God has actually created a great many more problems than it has solved (though not to say that it hasn't helped many).


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Newbie]
    #5891036 -

NewbieShroomie said:
Yeah I'm an atheist but I still have morals. I still try to be a good person treat people with respect. My lack of religion doesn't impose a rude or ignorant person on my part.


So you treat people with respect, and why does that make you a good person?
Because in dictionary it says that a good person treats people with respect?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891044 -

So we do not experience positive and negative consequences of our choices if God does not exist?  :confused:

Destruction and creation, order and chaos, positivity and negativity, hope and despair, love and hate, all exist independent of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Bogey man, God, gremlins, E.T., the Grinch, etc...etc...

Why is a fictional character essential to the meaning (or lack thereof) of existence?  Why would polarities cease to exist?

This argument does not make sense to me.

Quote:
I've never heard an atheist argument against murder for example.
That's because there is no argument against murder. The only true argument is you'll end up in jail because of people who are addicted to religious-like notions of what should and what should not be.


I do not wish to be murdered, nor for anyone else to be murdered, therefore I do not want others to be allowed to commit murder. My life belongs to me, and I don't want it to be taken from me.  Others have the same right to ownership of their lives, including the absolute right to commit suicide.

No religion necessary.  No fear of punishment necessary.  No God necessary. 

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891066 -

Fractalated said:
The best way to survive is through being peaceful and loving. War and hatred are not conducive to happiness or survival.



The only thing holding this civilisation together are guns, police and more guns. If it weren't for the law, people would live as they want to live, and then I'd ask you again wheather you can survive by being peacefull when every night someone would come to rob your house because you have something they don't or would rape your woman simply because she turns them on.
Look at nature, look at monkeys, that's how people would live if someone didn't hold a gun over their face 24/7


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891080 -

Veritas said:
So we do not experience positive and negative consequences of our choices if God does not exist?  :confused:

Destruction and creation, order and chaos, positivity and negativity, hope and despair, love and hate, all exist independent of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Bogey man, God, gremlins, E.T., the Grinch, etc...etc...

Why is a fictional character essential to the meaning (or lack thereof) of existence?  Why would polarities cease to exist?

This argument does not make sense to me.

Quote:
I've never heard an atheist argument against murder for example.
That's because there is no argument against murder. The only true argument is you'll end up in jail because of people who are addicted to religious-like notions of what should and what should not be.


I do not wish to be murdered, nor for anyone else to be murdered, therefore I do not want others to be allowed to commit murder. My life belongs to me, and I don't want it to be taken from me.  Others have the same right to ownership of their lives, including the absolute right to commit suicide.

No religion necessary.  No fear of punishment necessary.  No God necessary. 


Ok, without using any religious terminology, how do you define positive and negative?

Why is harmony and love positive? What difference does it make wheather people love each other or kill each other? It only makes difference to you , and projecting your own preferences to everyone is selfish.

Another human beings has as much right to kill you as you have right to not be killed. Mother nature doesn't care either way, you are just a coincidence


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891090 -

Why would someone want to rob if people learned to share? If people were capable of sharing, then there wouldn't be people so desperate that they turn to robery.

Not everyone rapes someone just because they're pretty. In fact, I would bet that the vast majority of people wouldn't rape someone even if they had the opportunity to do so without the police getting involved. Sex is an expression of love. Generally speaking, rapists have become sexually perverted or at some point in their psychological development they came to associate the pain of others with sexual pleasure.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891103 -

Fractalated said:
Why would someone want to rob if people learned to share? If people were capable of sharing, then there wouldn't be people so desperate that they turn to robery.

Not everyone rapes someone just because they're pretty. In fact, I would bet that the vast majority of people wouldn't rape someone even if they had the opportunity to do so without the police getting involved. Sex is an expression of love. Generally speaking, rapists have become sexually perverted or at some point in their psychological development they came to associate the pain of others with sexual pleasure.


But they don't know how to share, and they wouldn't learn because people never learn anything. If they didn't we wouldn't be in the same position as we were 3000 years ago or 2000 years ago or 200 years ago. History teaches us that people didn't change from the stone age. Only technology changed.
People don't know how to share, period. The best you can do is protect yourself from their greed


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891112 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Ok, without using any religious terminology, how do you define positive and negative?

Why is harmony and love positive? What difference does it make wheather people love each other or kill each other? It only makes difference to you, and projecting your own preferences to everyone is selfish.


Without using "religious" terminology?  You mean "good" and "evil"? 

I'm a hedonist, so harmony and love are positive because they feel better than disharmony and hatred.  :heart: 

How is projecting my (and any other healthy, sane humans') preferences any more selfish than projecting the preferences of ancient humans?  (i.e. authors of the Bible, inventors of God)

Quote:
Another human beings has as much right to kill you as you have right to not be killed. Mother nature doesn't care either way, you are just a coincidence


Mother Nature?  Who's she?  :grin:

No, other human beings have just as much right to end their own life as I do to end mine.  Why would they have any rights concerning me?  You insist that, without God, there are no rules...this is a very narrow POV.  Humans have been making up behavioral rules for almost as long as they have been making up supernatural beings.  :grin:

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891131 -

Power gives right. If they have the power to control your life, then they have the right to do so. It's simple darvinism, it's everywhere in nature.

What gives a right for one gorilla to lead others? Because he can kill others with one hit of his hand


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891149 -

Darwin was not a philosopher.  :grin:

There are many ways of establishing and enforcing rights, and violence is only one of these methods.  Cooperation is a powerful force, and will make the difference in this world if anything can.

Humans are animals, but we are also thinkers, with the capacity for great compassion and wisdom.  Not everyone lives a respectful, concerned life because of a gun held to their head.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891150 -

But they don't know how to share, and they wouldn't learn because people never learn anything.

All behavior is learned. Everything you do is based on conditioning. Even what you think. If the wholesome seeds in a person's consciousness are watered, then they will grow. If unwholesome seeds are watered, then they will grow. Right now, there are many unwholesome seeds being watered all over the world, especially through the media.

If people start watering wholesome seeds in themselves and in others, then they will most certainly change and learn.

The best you can do is protect yourself from their greed

I'm not so sure. If you protect yourself from their greed, you could very easily water the seeds of suspicion, greed, violence, and distrust. I think the best thing to do is to not be greedy yourself, and try to water wholesome seeds in the consciousness of anyone who is greedy.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891159 -

Might does whatever it pleases. Might does NOT necessarily make right.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Fractalated]
    #5891161 -

Greed gives you more materials for survival, that's its very purpuse. Why should one avoid greed?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891169 -

I disagree. Greed occurs when you have enough, but still want more and more for yourself.

"The earth has enough for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed."
- Gandhi


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5891171 -

Greed, by definition, is practiced by taking more than you need to survive.

Quote:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth


Being greedy does not aid survival, it is a sign of emotional imbalance and fear-based living.

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Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891182 -

Veritas said:
Darwin was not a philosopher.  :grin:

There are many ways of establishing and enforcing rights, and violence is only one of these methods.  Cooperation is a powerful force, and will make the difference in this world if anything can.

Humans are animals, but we are also thinkers, with the capacity for great compassion and wisdom.  Not everyone lives a respectful, concerned life because of a gun held to their head.


Darvin only saw how nature works.

How does cooperation gives one man a right to kill another? The other one surely won't cooperate.

The only way you can do something is if you can get away with it.
If you can all is well, if you can't, that means you had no right in the first place.

It's same with laws, laws exist only where there are policemen or people who believe in them.
Same is with rights. If you are surrounded with people who believe you have rights, then you have them. Or if you are surrounded by people who don't believe in your rights and you are strong enough to enforce your rights, again you have them.
But you have to earn them either with convincing others, or with forcing them. Convicing them in your rights is a lie, and forcing them is violence.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: For Atheists... [Re: Veritas]
    #5891185 -

Veritas said:
Greed, by definition, is practiced by taking more than you need to survive.

Quote:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth


Being greedy does not aid survival, it is a sign of emotional imbalance and fear-based living.


Then how come only greedy animals survive the winter?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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