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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Having Nothing to Defend
    #5711614 -

If one has nothing to defend then there is no point of conflict to engage that individual.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5711643 -

Yes, like if the person is dead, then they can't defend their life :grin:

No conflict necessary.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5711652 -

Dutthatthaka Sutta


There are some who dispute
corrupted at heart,
and those who dispute
their hearts set on truth,
but a sage doesn't enter
a dispute that's arisen,
which is why he is
nowhere constrained.

Now, how would one
led on by desire,
entrenched in his likes,
forming his own conclusions,
overcome his own views?
He'd dispute in line
with the way that he knows.

Whoever boasts to others, unasked,
of his practices, precepts,
is, say the skilled,
ignoble by nature --
he who speaks of himself
of his own accord.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/sutta_nipata_iv1.htm


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5711655 -

Route to passive nihilism?

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5711667 -

I am coming to see defending philosophical points as a means of engaging self importance and fixing ones awareness to one point. This does not mean that I do not have a view, but I wish to indulge it less. I like conversation but I am feeling that my past defense of certain viewpoints is self defeating to growth.

"Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now." --Bob Dylan


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5711697 -

Ahh, I see. Yes, humans have a certain problem (if you want to call it that) when it comes to communication. It's difficult to be dynamic when one has a viewpoint that is either this or that and nothing else. Humans don't really work together to find a certain truth in conversation, but instead, have differences that they try nullify in the other.

It is a reality when it comes to any sort of relationship, I'm afraid. There are bound to be differences in people that are dichotomous, or opposing. And nullifying differences isn't always the best route to take, but is taken often as the easiest.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5711805 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I am coming to see defending philosophical points as a means of engaging self importance and fixing ones awareness to one point. This does not mean that I do not have a view, but I wish to indulge it less. I like conversation but I am feeling that my past defense of certain viewpoints is self defeating to growth.



I use message boards to talk to myself.
Once in awhile someone assists me with takling to myself.
It's true you can never really teach anyone anything, you only teach yourself.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think one would go about arriving at a point where they had Nothing to Defend?

(i'm taking the statement out of context, so it's not only set towards Having Nothing to Defend in a conversation. but set as a philosophy of a people, if they had no land or ideas to defend, would it make them impervious to conflict?) (by the way i'm really stoned so forgive me if this doesn't even make sense.)

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Telepylus]
    #5712220 -

"Just out of curiosity, how do you think one would go about arriving at a point where they had Nothing to Defend?"

By losing self importance....nothing more than this.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5712310 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Just out of curiosity, how do you think one would go about arriving at a point where they had Nothing to Defend?"

By losing self importance....nothing more than this.


I disagree. If one defends another's right to not be killed/tortured, is this self importance?

If one can see a fatal flaw in an opponent's argument, and debates it, is that self importance?

Also, the meaning of self importance is rather vague, from what I can gather from this thread. What if you are important?

Lastly, if you agree with what you've just said, why did you post something about, and why are you defending, the concept of having nothing to defend removing all conflict? Or are you just playing devils advocate, espousing a view not your own for practice (or fun)?


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Xanthas]
    #5712480 -

"I disagree. If one defends another's right to not be killed/tortured, is this self importance?"

I am talking about philosophical points. If someone trys to hurt me...I'll kick ass, but I am talking philosophy not physical force.

"If one can see a fatal flaw in an opponent's argument, and debates it, is that self importance?"

If the purpose of the argument is merely to flex the ego...which is what most arguments are about....yes. If it is about an important decision...no.

I am not downing all debate, just useless disagreement. For me I have decided that this process is sometimes a waste of energy and fixes the awareness to a single point. I seek the dynamic manipulation of my awareness. I have views that I believe in, but I am more and more less compelled to defend them. Let others think what they will. It is no skin off my back ALSO...I am discussing ME. For me debate is losing relevance...I care less and less for the views of my fellow humans. If they agree with me or not I am happy. At one time debate was a means of growth, but not much anymore. Other people may feel different and that is wonderful. I posted this thread in case others may gain something from it. If you stand nothing to gain then don't worry about it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Xanthas]
    #5712566 -

Also, the meaning of self importance is rather vague, from what I can gather from this thread. What if you are important?

I think he meant Impotance. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Icelander]
    #5712600 -

Yes this sounds right.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5712668 -

I agree with Huehuecoyotl in a sense, though another part of me feels (probbaly the part that seems to never tire of meaningless debates and semantic arguments) that debating and arguing one's point, even if one doesn't agree with it him or herself, as I often don't when arguing a point, can be a real challenge and simply an interesting activity.

Like a sport, or a game of chess.

Sure, a game of chess or sport is about flexing one's ego, but it is also about developping one's intelligence and abilities. It is about challenging oneself, and enjoying oneself.

Do you feel this challenge and development of abilities is all just indulgement in self importance, which should be avoided?

I personally have not given this enough thought to really know where I stand.

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #5712794 -

"Do you feel this challenge and development of abilities is all just indulgement in self importance, which should be avoided?"

No. Competition is healthy and natural in my opinion. To a certain extent debate develops the mind, but when one argues a state of mind, one is destined to be rooted in that state of mind.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5713117 -

when you lose self-importance though
there are still things to defend, like maybe land, or children.

in fact, having children often leads to losing self importance, because you are busy nurturing another life

and that is the point i'm getting to about Having Nothing to Defend.
I'm trying to see if that it is actually possible, because if it is, I agree that there would be little room left for conflict.

we are always defending life though.
if we cease that defense, then, we basically die.

ego is another good example here.
losing ego is very important of course.
but, you cannot live without it permanently.
you can lose it temporarily though the day, but there is a time and place where it is necessary too.
like in order to feed yourself, or find a mate, etc...

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5713444 -

This does not mean that I do not have a view, but I wish to indulge it less

Is not this entire thread an indulgence then?

I care less and less for the views of my fellow humans. If they agree with me or not I am happy

In Buddhism you would become an arhat or a pratyekabuddha with this attitude. That's someone who knows the Truth but just keeps it to themselves. It's essentially without any compassion. The whole world may believe themselves to be in suffering, but you realize that you aren't, so what difference does it make to you?

Do you think you're so important that you deserve to know the Truth, but no one else does? This sounds to me like self-importance. Perhaps my words are overdramaticizing this, but I'd rather not see anyone go down a path without love and compassion.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5713938 -

Nobody is important.
Everyone is valuable.

Nobody has more or less to loose than his life and eventually for what it stands for as its 'meaning'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: dblaney]
    #5713941 -

dblaney said:
This does not mean that I do not have a view, but I wish to indulge it less

Is not this entire thread an indulgence then?

I care less and less for the views of my fellow humans. If they agree with me or not I am happy

In Buddhism you would become an arhat or a pratyekabuddha with this attitude. That's someone who knows the Truth but just keeps it to themselves. It's essentially without any compassion. The whole world may believe themselves to be in suffering, but you realize that you aren't, so what difference does it make to you?

Do you think you're so important that you deserve to know the Truth, but no one else does? This sounds to me like self-importance. Perhaps my words are overdramaticizing this, but I'd rather not see anyone go down a path without love and compassion.


"Silence is also speaking" - Ramana Maharshi

I don't think one must engage in debate or concern themselves too much with the views of others to have compassion. There are other ways of teaching and helping others.

Edited by Deviate (06/05/06 06:40 AM)

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Deviate]
    #5714351 -

You're right, perhaps I misinterpreted what he was saying?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Having Nothing to Defend [Re: Telepylus]
    #5715464 -

"there are still things to defend, like maybe land, or children."

I am discussing philosophical points of view. I did not say I would not discuss them...but there is no need to defend them.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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