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InvisibleZen Peddler
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philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds?
    #2356956 - 02/19/04 10:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And is it an exercise in complete and utter futility? How do we expect to learn and understand the universe in one life time when the culmination of thousands of lifetimes have only resulted in bullshit science, better war and weaponry and men in suits who think their lives matter while they children wish they would hurry up and die so that they can get their inheritence??
The most ancient of religions still practised today - (practised in the same way that it was originally practised - unlike all these wiccan wanks who pretend that their really were fairies and witches running around europe worshipping the goddess - teutonic orders who ruled in europe from around 400AD pushed out celtic beliefs not wiccan) explains the futility in philosophy - you will never work it all out - the more you think about the way of the worlds - the reason for life the further you will get from the answer - which is that is just 'is'. :beer:


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OfflineDestruKtiKon
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2357030 - 02/20/04 12:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well then, isn't everything futile? As for myself, when not idle, I still think in philisophical terms about what is going on. Philosophy for me(and alot of others i guess) is a personal endeavour to help me live a better more fulfilling(to myself) life.


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Light & Music


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2357537 - 02/20/04 02:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You know... it's actually possible to produce visible change with aptly applied philosophical ideas. Maybe the problem is that YOU aren't doing shit.
*kicks bluemeanie in the ass (but not that hard)*
GET UP FUGGER!!!
Here's your can of spray paint...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2357797 - 02/20/04 03:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Bluemeanie, that was a pretty harsh flame at wicca.

I'm gonna have to agree with Sclorch here.

Philosophy is only futile when it extends no further into your life than conceptualization.


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OfflineDestruKtiKon
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2357981 - 02/20/04 05:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

^^^yeah


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Light & Music


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2358185 - 02/20/04 07:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

How exactly does that retaliate to my points in any way?
You say that it is possible to visual change but dont quantify what exactly your making change to - do you mean your identity? Ego? How do you manifest visual changes to something that is inherantly invisible? Your statement makes no sense and demonstrates that all you really understand about philosophy is that 'its cool to think about when stoned.'
All youve really demonstrated is your own inability to express what your actually trying to say.
And what philosophy exactly have you studied and how has it manifested 'visual change' in your life? What exactly have you dont with your life that has somehow made it more relevant to mankind since you opened a philosophy after a particularly thick rasta?
Please finish high school, then get back to me...
As for the other comments - you both admit that your study/interest in philosophy is purely for your own self-indulgence...
I actually ask this question for philosophical reasons. Why would one feel need to justify their need to wonder about the scheme of things - isnt it human nature for intelligent minds to do so?
Isnt the need to justify this demonstrate that deep-down it is self-indulgence? While children starve in africa/asia/south america you spend your endless spare time wondering about 'stuff' after a joint or two? You do it to make yourself feel better as you both state, ignoring the fact that your idle happiness has done nothing to illeviate the real problems in the world. The problems that require hard and constistant work to solve. Problems that actually matter.
As for Wicca - it wasnt a flame - it is factually evident that the modern religion of wiccas has no factual connection with any documented belief system of the past.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359135 - 02/20/04 01:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We were given the ability to conceptualize, I don't understand how you can say we shouldn't use that ability.

Bullshit science? You seem bitter. It is hard for me to even know where to begin replying to you because your entire perspective on this seems sort of fucked... maybe you should light up a joint  :spliff:, sit down, and maybe do some deep thinking.

I don't even see how anyone decided what these "real problems" in the world are without thinking about it. But then again, I forgot, thinking is bad. And those who love to think and ponder have no right to do so. Silly me.  :rolleyes:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359162 - 02/20/04 01:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

HA!
Damn, I haven't been flamed in a while... thanks!  :grin:
Though maybe next time you'll hit closer to the target, as none of that applies to me.

I just get tired of seeing the same old Ivory Tower-borne existentialist nausea.
If you don't like something about the world... fucking DO something.
There's just too much talk around here and not enough action.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359187 - 02/20/04 01:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You say that it is possible to visual change but dont quantify what exactly your making change to - do you mean your identity? Ego? How do you manifest visual changes to something that is inherantly invisible?



Changing your thoughts can (but does not always) result in a change in behavior. Behavior is visible/perceivable, right?

Quote:

As for the other comments - you both admit that your study/interest in philosophy is purely for your own self-indulgence...



Of course it is, most things a person does in his spare time are for self-indulgence.

Quote:

I actually ask this question for philosophical reasons. Why would one feel need to justify their need to wonder about the scheme of things - isnt it human nature for intelligent minds to do so?



Ahm... why would one feel the need to make people justify their need to wonder about the scheme of things?

Quote:

While children starve in africa/asia/south america you spend your endless spare time wondering about 'stuff' after a joint or two? You do it to make yourself feel better as you both state, ignoring the fact that your idle happiness has done nothing to illeviate the real problems in the world. The problems that require hard and constistant work to solve. Problems that actually matter.



Philosophy matters just as much as anything else does. A good cup of coffee in the morning can make all the difference in your life, as can a shroom trip, a doobie, a job, etc. Don't most people "waste" their spare time on things that "don't really matter"? What really does matter? Survival? Self-sufficiency? Self-realisation? Happiness?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359211 - 02/20/04 02:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are treading on thin ice hear now, bluemeanie...

Watch the flames or you will be banned


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: trendal]
    #2359230 - 02/20/04 02:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well don't ban him for flaming me...
Though I find it obnoxious, I'm not offended.

If being obnoxious were a crime, we all would have been banned from here at some point in time. hehe


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2359238 - 02/20/04 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Lol, oh don't worry he's not even getting a "warning" for this :grin:

But I do want to make it clear to him that flaming isn't alowed in here. It is rule #1, after all :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self- [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359288 - 02/20/04 02:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm, religion and philosophy have a strong connection. As an example, when you talk about christian religion, you also can associate something like christian philosophy.
Anyway, everything in life has a philosophical meaning, it's just one more face on the prism of reality.
Saying that philosophy is pointless is the same as saying thinking is pointless.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359308 - 02/20/04 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Mental masturbation is fun, disease free, and no tissues are required.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Evolving]
    #2359743 - 02/20/04 04:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you are all animals


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359801 - 02/20/04 04:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't see philosophy as self-indulgent at all..


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2360073 - 02/20/04 05:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i havent thought too much about philosophy being self-indulgent, but even if it is, so what?


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o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Atomisk]
    #2360136 - 02/20/04 05:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Heres the way i see it
philosophy is the attempt to gain understanding of the world

now maybe no one has achieved that yet but philosopohy still has merit because

A. Just because a question has not been answerd yet, does not mean that no answer exists

B. Even if you never 'finish' the game you still benefit everytime you play it
that is total understanding of this universe may be beyond our simian minds, but every step closer to that goal benefits us

C. The wars and fuck ups of the past are not evidence that philosophy is a failure or useless, it is evidence that it is nescessary for our survival if we want to transcend animal brutality


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Offlinenemesis
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent mi [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2360175 - 02/20/04 05:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Laziness is the mother of all philosophy."


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May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.


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OfflineDzogchen
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent mi [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2360237 - 02/20/04 06:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Philosophy is the result of thinking about death and recognising your own mortality. Obviously you havent given it much thought!

We are all of one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively!!!


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There are more things in heaven and hell than there are in your philosophy!


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent mi [Re: Dzogchen]
    #2360301 - 02/20/04 06:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

A. Just because a question has not been answerd yet, does not mean that no answer exists



Philosophy to me is more about the questions and looking into different perspectives than your own than about the answers per se.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent mi [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2360342 - 02/20/04 06:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Philosophy was born after the nomad human tribes started settling. They had much more time to practice and make paintings, music or story telling. So art is also a result of free time just as philosophy is. It's a result of evolution but it also promotes evolution, for instance, without philosophy many scientific achievements wouldn't exist at all because before finding anything, man must have the need to find anything but why does man need to know ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent mi [Re: MAIA]
    #2360635 - 02/20/04 08:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say philosophy came into existance with the rising of the Homo sapiens sapiens (and possibly Homo Neanderthalensis species before that). These early humans realised they were mortal, and buried their dead. This could be a practical issue (keeping away predators and scavengers by removing the scent of the corpse from the direct environment of the group), but funeral pyres could accomplish the same thing. For them to bury their dead would imply they had some kind of rationalisation of death, i.e. sending the person on a voyage (thus burying them with tools, gifts, food). Since philosophy is about the great questions of life, and the end of life raises such questions, I'd argue philosophy started there.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2361022 - 02/20/04 10:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's no more an exercise in futility than, say, playing basketball, or jerking off.


Edited by CyberChump (02/21/04 01:07 PM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent mi [Re: Dzogchen]
    #2362118 - 02/21/04 02:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Lol - ill be honest now I just wanted to stir the pot - to philophize about philosophy. Futility itself could be argued to be fundamental itself to the human condition...
I certainly didnt 'flame' anyone - i said nothing that was a personal attack - only pointing out possible flaws in some arguments. And i was surprised how poorly some arguments were established.
I myself spen many hours contemplating the human condition - i feel no shame about it and no need to justify it - but in the context of it being a luxury that people from less fortunate situations do not have access to ,i think there is a valid point. Just because we have the time to contemplate doesnt mean our lives are any more rewarding, significant or enlightening than a poor beggar in a Bengalli street.
I dont suggest that i have some dramatic insight into the human condition that other's do not - there are some people who do and it obvious that its really just their way of justifying their own lifestyles and to prop up their low feelings of self-worth...
DZOGCHEN - there is more to philosophy than a mere pondering of death - but mortality and the human condition is often the crux of these thoughts.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (02/21/04 02:28 AM)


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Offlinenemesis
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2362776 - 02/21/04 08:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Most of the succesful are the poor."


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May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: nemesis]
    #2373509 - 02/23/04 10:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Philosophy is a great glorious wank. Whe we evolve beyond wanking we will evolve beyond philosophizing.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2374274 - 02/24/04 02:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Um... nevermind... it's not worth my time...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: Sclorch]
    #2374902 - 02/24/04 08:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Um... nevermind... it's not worth my time...




:grin:

All I can say is that if philosophy is a "wank", then life is as well. Pretty logical assumption, I feel... and damn it all if I wouldn't be able to construct a logical assumption if it wasn't for philosophy in the first place.  :lol:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2376949 - 02/25/04 08:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

On a good day life is a wank. On a bad day it's something else. That pretty much suns up my attitude. Of course some wanks are more elaborate than others.....


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Offlinedoomstershroomster
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Anonymous]
    #25710484 - 12/29/18 09:25 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Majah flame there Mr. Anonymous.


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Spartacus is my dad and Spartacus is my mom?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: doomstershroomster]
    #25710670 - 12/30/18 12:13 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

The original post amusingly is a victim of what good philosophy should teach one not to do: namely: overgeneralize

Sure some philosophy is BS ... but ...

some philosophies actually resulted in changing peoples' lives:

stoicism from ancient Greece

If you read the biography of Wittgenstein, he was clearly trying to achieve an integration between ideas and actions.

and one last example, ( I'm sure many can think of others)
Chinese philosophy, acupuncture, and Tai Chi are all integrated
it is also pervasive in the iChing, and writings of Lao Tzu

and of course there are negative examples as well,
especially as bad philosophy merges with belief systems;
as opposed to dissecting them, which is what good philosophy might do.

One branch of Philosophy is symbolic logic which requires rather more intelligence than the 'average bear' has, thus negating the notion you have that your cursory opinion deserves status as a fact.


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Edited by laughingdog (12/30/18 12:15 AM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25710794 - 12/30/18 02:01 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

some philosophies actually resulted in changing peoples' lives




For me, philosophy is looking inward.

Learning about how I disturb myself.

It's not easy. It's the path of a warrior.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25711453 - 12/30/18 01:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

a web inquiry yields the info, links, and categories, below

....In my opinion all philosophy is based on the ability to think critically, which is not a natural ability of humans any more than reading is.
....Belief, superstition, habit, emotional reactivity, prejudice/bias, xenophobia, conformity, and sensual desire all tend to supersede reason as the default mode for humans.
....Hence the value of the scientific method, philosophy, and critical thinking, would seem to be some of the very important determining factors of the level of civilization that is possible for any given culture.
....Of course the average health & intelligence of a population, sets the first bar; and there are many other factors. But without the ability to transcend the default mode, humans are fated or condemned to the world we see today, where war has been almost constantly occurring somewhere on the planet for thousands of years ( and this is only the most obvious example of the failure of the default mode, which is characterized by the inability to think clearly).
....Of course regardless, once civilization becomes an empire; then history shows that in the case of empires, there is always an eventual decline, as there has never been an effective modality for raising intelligence. And even intelligence does not necessarily lead to either critical thinking or compassion. So when we think in broad terms like this, and employ logic and continue, regardless of whether we like the conclusions, we are perhaps beginning to engage in a sort of philosophical thinking.

---------

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=branches+of+philosophy&t=h_&ia=web

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Philosophy/The_Branches_of_Philosophy

https://www.reference.com/world-view/main-branches-philosophy-ead9595786ddb79

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Branches_of_philosophy

This category is intended for the main areas of philosophy studied in modern academia.
Subcategories
This category has the following 11 subcategories, out of 11 total.
A
► Aesthetics‎ (26 C, 121 P)


► Axiology‎ (1 C, 11 P)


C
► Cosmology‎ (4 C, 15 P)


E
► Epistemology‎ (21 C, 168 P)


► Ethics‎ (23 C, 134 P)


L
► Logic‎ (21 C, 154 P)


M
► Metaphilosophy‎ (13 C, 26 P)


► Metaphysics‎ (18 C, 75 P)


P
► Phenomenology‎ (9 C, 52 P)


► Practical philosophy‎ (2 C, 1 P)


T
► Theoretical philosophy‎ (3 C, 1 P)




--------------------



Edited by laughingdog (12/30/18 01:39 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #25713140 - 12/31/18 06:44 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Zen Peddler said:
And is it an exercise in complete and utter futility? How do we expect to learn and understand the universe in one life time when the culmination of thousands of lifetimes have only resulted in bullshit science, better war and weaponry and men in suits who think their lives matter while they children wish they would hurry up and die so that they can get their inheritence??
The most ancient of religions still practised today - (practised in the same way that it was originally practised - unlike all these wiccan wanks who pretend that their really were fairies and witches running around europe worshipping the goddess - teutonic orders who ruled in europe from around 400AD pushed out celtic beliefs not wiccan) explains the futility in philosophy - you will never work it all out - the more you think about the way of the worlds - the reason for life the further you will get from the answer - which is that is just 'is'. :beer:




(Thread may be old but it's still posing the question)

Philosophy might be the result of idol, bored and self-indulgent minds, though at the same time it tends to result in understandings.

A clear purpose isn't something I think needs to be sought for a whole lifetime, but for what you are doing, what ever it is that just is for you. At least having a clear purpose makes it easier to arrive at something, step by step.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: sudly]
    #25713711 - 12/31/18 01:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Funny the OP posting about the futility of changing the outer world,
when psychedelics  are about changing the inner world,
and this is of course a website having to do with psychedelics.

And once the inner world is changed,
the experiencing of the outer world is changed.*

And once one goes outside of western philosophy,
to the Indian philosophies of Yoga & Buddhism,
philosophy is linked to a moral lifestyle,
as a foundation;
before & along with, those practices,
that alter consciousness or the inner world,
which then changes the experiencing of the outer world.

As an example ( from the Indian  Nondualist / Advaita Vedanta tradition is this case , I think)
"In my world, nothing ever goes wrong."
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

https://www.azquotes.com/quote/725952

for more of Nisargadatta's wisdom in bite site quotes see
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nisargadatta+quotes&t=h_&ia=web

* of course from a certain point of view even this is dualistic


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25714389 - 12/31/18 07:42 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

"In my world, nothing ever goes wrong."
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj 




:thumbup:    I love it.

It's fascinating to consider the mind creates "problems", and bothers itself.

A "problem" is the difference between desire and reality.

. . . He has a health problem.

. . . They have problems in their marriage.

. . . She has a gambling problem.


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: zappaisgod]
    #25714458 - 12/31/18 08:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
On a good day life is a wank.  On a bad day it's something else.  That pretty much suns up my attitude.  Of course some wanks are more elaborate than others.....





Classic Zappa. I can't say that isn't good thinking, but I am of the opinion that, while ultimate truth is unknowable to us, I do think we can know certain things, and philosophy and critical thinking are not worthless. There is such a thing as cultivating and enriching oneself, and I feel this may not be just an empty wank. I used to feel very differently, though.


RIP Zappa


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25714499 - 12/31/18 09:13 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

What's the difference between truth and 'ultimate truth'?

Or just what do you mean by ultimate truth?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: sudly]
    #25714531 - 12/31/18 09:39 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Newton's laws are true, or true enough. The final theory from which they reduce could be a form of ultimate truth. For example. (I don't think quantum theory is in any way final). I feel that such a theory is, in all likelihood, beyond us, or rather, our level of evolution.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25715475 - 01/01/19 08:41 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting to see a thread this old revived.

I prefer jerking off to philosophy which is probably why I studied sociology for 10 years and took one semester of philosophy.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgent minds? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #25715602 - 01/01/19 09:41 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

No. People who take mushrooms and come to the realisation that they are not their ego at times tend to forget that they are still human. It's easy to do, but this truth means that what you are aware of in your trip is somewhat stuck in that experience itself. To become human again is to involuntary forget part of that truth.

To say that philosophy is inherently futile is to say the same about life itself.
Science and philosophy are one. The true nature of reality is entirely holistic.


--------------------
Man’s ability to travel between the physical and metaphysical makes him both arbiter and prisoner to creation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #25717332 - 01/01/19 10:17 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

you're not exactly kidding.


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: sudly]
    #25718564 - 01/02/19 01:54 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
What's the difference between truth and 'ultimate truth'?

Or just what do you mean by ultimate truth?




you could also use a search engine, and find a 'truth' about the common usage of these common terms quicker --- then again its not so quick, as the explanations tend to be long, so no one's going to post a comprehensive explanation here.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=What%27s+the+difference+between+truth+and+%27ultimate+truth%27%3F&t=h_&ia=web

Then again sometimes (or perhaps often) 'truth' may be a matter of perspective:
The lion's truth maybe different than the zebra's truth.
But if both exist only in your dream,
once the unconscious creation, becomes conscious; then whose truth is it?
And if 'you' change, the same dream characters,  might mean something different
at another time.
etc.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: laughingdog]
    #25722113 - 01/04/19 04:10 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

It's a Buddhist philosophy apparently.

The conceptual and the ultimate.. planes of existence like heaven and hell and conceptual ways of understanding reality.

The first truth is conceptual in line of entities of self and organs and the body, people, places and things.

The ultimate reality, or ultimate truth is said to be the building blocks of reality, the second truth, things as they really are from an experiential level, the 5 senses and so on including physical and mental parts of every experience.

Biology talks about systems, here Buddhists call them concepts.

Have fun you space cadets.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: sudly]
    #25722777 - 01/04/19 01:56 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Yes the terms are Buddhist.
the main point is about self.
the second point is about the world.
from these 2 points others follow:

1) conventionally we take the 'sense of self' we all experience as our basic truth
2) conventionally we take the world to be full of separate objects
thus it follows because we assume we have a stable identity we suffer because
the ultimate truth is
1) we don't actually have "a self" * ( Thus we are out of touch with reality) **
and
2) the ultimate truth about objects is they are all interrelated
.....A) and only exist as long as their components have some sort of temporary connection (hence they are impermanent)***
.....B) and one way they are all interrelated is by infinite "chains" of causation"


* "According to this doctrine, there is no "self" in the sense of a permanent, integral, autonomous being within an individual existence. What we think of as our self, the "me" that inhabits our body, is just an ephemeral experience."
https://www.thoughtco.com/anatman-anatta-449669
note this does not deny the feeling of self, or that it is necessary in the social world,
or deny that this self suffers;
in fact the whole point of the Buddhist teaching is to end suffering, not create either beliefs or theories.

** this is also stated by Shinzen Young as: 
pain x resistance = suffering
so here resistance equates to our self and its disliking of certain experiences
So a small pain times great dislike = much suffering
but
a great pain with no resistance = no suffering
(hence a buddhist saying: "No self, No problem")

***modern science confirms
1) matter is composed of smaller components as far as we can measure
2) matter is equivalent to energy


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: laughingdog]
    #25723820 - 01/04/19 10:32 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I don't assume we have a stable self, but instead that the self is an ever changing and developing entity like a web that flows.


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: sudly]
    #25724853 - 01/05/19 12:10 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

the moment we loose touch with our senses, we lose our selves in the soggy domain of concepts.
connecting with the senses, enables and empowers the self which is no-self.


[this self is no-self in the sense that the self is not what you thought it was, but what is happening in the moment - which you may become aware of or not]


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25729050 - 01/07/19 03:11 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Lo! I am come to autumn,
When all the leaves are gold;
Grey hairs and golden leaves cry out
The year and I are old.

In youth I sought the prince of men,
Captain in cosmic wars,
Our Titan, even the weeds would show
Defiant, to the stars.

But now a great thing in the street
Seems any human nod,
Where shift in strange democracy
The million masks of God.

In youth I sought the golden flower
Hidden in wood or wold,
But I am come to autumn,
When all the leaves are gold.


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Re: philosophy the result of idol, bored & self-indulgen [Re: One Up]
    #25730680 - 01/08/19 02:58 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Lovely! Whose words are these? I usually am too prosaic, too Apollonian (despite my secret worship of Dionysus) to grok poetry, much as I have tried. But now, halfway through my 65th year of life, these words speak to me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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