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OfflineSpecialEd
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Intelligence
    #2712847 - 05/21/04 10:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A spin off of this thread


A teacher of mine recently pointed out that intelligence has no bearing on survival...

"Who's more intelligent, the human race or cockroaches?"

"Who's more intelligent, the human race or rats?"

"Who's winning in the fight between humans vs. rats and cockroaches?"


Really fucking smart people build nuclear bombs


The few people that I have been friends with that I would consider genius have real problems fitting into society. They are always depressed, have substance abuse problems, and are burdened with thoughts and views that they frustratingly have to keep to themselves.

In my days at the university, I noticed that people of normal intelligence did just fine in school, and people who could think for themselves ended up dropping out.


My thoughts on this matter are scattered and convoluted, but the thing I wanted to discuss was not whether smart people are glad to be smart, but what the values of intelligence are...


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2712902 - 05/21/04 10:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
A spin off of this thread
.

"Who's more intelligent, the human race or cockroaches?"






cockroaches.


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2713012 - 05/21/04 11:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

perhaps he was meaning intelligence as adaptability and/or fitness.
maybe not. humans have only been around such a small time on a biological time-line, compared to other organisms.
single celled organisms arent intelligent, but


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2713045 - 05/21/04 11:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

what the values of intelligence are...

A single thought, for now:
Intelligence increases the pattern-matching ability of the human brain. In doing so, it allows for survival through avoidance as opposed to survival through physical superiority. Instead of having to rely on one's reflexes and strength for protection in dangerous situations...intelligence allows one to recognize a developing danger before it reaches a level where the only option is the fight or flight response.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Intelligence [Re: trendal]
    #2713073 - 05/22/04 12:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well put.

Aditionally this favors individual longevity as opposed to survival by mass numbers. Something a sentient being who can contemplate his own demise should appreciate.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2713288 - 05/22/04 12:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

the thing I wanted to discuss was not whether smart people are glad to be smart, but what the values of intelligence are...

There are things that intelligent people can do that less intelligent people can't.  While each individual is important, regardless of intelligence, not everyone can do what a very intelligent person can do, like build bombs.  :grin:

I agree that being intelligent can be a detriment.  Going to go on a rant that probably has nothing to do with your question...

Really intelligent people get all kinds of detriments along with being really intelligent.  That's what I think is ADHD, and is also not fitting in, and also is thinking too much.  With such a gift comes a detriment, because nature hates an imbalance.

Regardless of the detriments, I think if someone is really intelligent, he owes it to himself to use that gift to benefit society.  (I know I'm going to take a lot of schitt over this one.  :grin: )


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Intelligence [Re: Frog]
    #2713335 - 05/22/04 01:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well you won't get any chit from moi. As has been said, "To whom much is given, much is expected." I agree with that. Now when it comes to, for example, the attribute of brute strength- that gift is easily given. The pillars start to fall; in steps Hercules to the rescue!

When it comes to intelligence, many times if you happen to be the one with the most candle-power in the room and a task needs to be done you will have problems. People love to fight. That is their instinct. Normally, you will first have to defeat them before you can even begin to help them! And on a personal note,  may I interject something I need to get off my chest?..

"That's why no one wants to help your ass!!!! You fucking fight the people that want to help you!! Oh OH OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thank you - I needed to get that off my chest!  :smile:


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Intelligence [Re: Jellric]
    #2713367 - 05/22/04 01:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

cockroaches are so beyond these kinds of debates..


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Intelligence [Re: BleaK]
    #2713387 - 05/22/04 01:26 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, Mr. Cockroach.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Intelligence [Re: Jellric]
    #2713493 - 05/22/04 01:55 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Normally, you will first have to defeat them before you can even begin to help them!"

I agree.  But how do you defeat them?  :grin:

People mostly don't like really intelligent people.  They are intimidated or insecure or whatever.

My modus operandi is to pretend I'm not so smart, that they are truly the smart ones, but maybe, just maybe, this idea will help...

I call it "going belly-up".  They maintain their dignity, I get the fucking job done.  Voila!  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Intelligence [Re: Frog]
    #2713645 - 05/22/04 02:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

But how do you defeat them?

Great question.

What works for me is thinking of the people you are supposed to help as the cast and yourself as the director. No one likes to be ruled, but everyone loves being in a movie! The most important aspect is picking your own part based upon whatever is needed to fulfill the plot. From that role you direct. So that does limit your choice of roles a bit, but if you truly want to help, you won't mind not being the star. Having said that, often I find that people want me to be the star and go out on a limb, so that they then have the courage and freedom to portray their part. That is cool as long as you don't get too wrapped up in it. (Popularity is vanity).

Playing dumb can work as long as you are not exposed to the people over a long period of time. I don't recommend it generally.

They maintain their dignity, I get the fucking job done.

That is the key. I can't recall at the moment the exact phrase or where it came from (someone chime in if you know this), but someone once said something to the effect, "Lead from behind. Then when the work is completed the people will all say, 'It all happened to us naturally.'


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Intelligence [Re: Jellric]
    #2713797 - 05/22/04 03:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"What works for me is thinking of the people you are supposed  to help as the cast and yourself as the director. No one likes to be ruled, but everyone loves being in a movie! The most important aspect is picking your own part based upon whatever is needed to fulfill the plot. From that role you direct. So that does limit your choice of roles a bit, but if you truly want to help, you won't mind not being the star.

I like the way you described the process.  I think that's what I do.  Keep in mind that I genuinely like people, and I don't see what I do as "using" them.  But you can direct people with your words, and with your compliments.  I don't think I invented this idea at all.  Neither did you, Jell.  We may have thought of doing this, but there's a guy who wrote a book on the subject.  We should get some credit, don't you think?  What was his name...  When I think of it, I'll tell you.  But his idea is that you get people to do what you want them to do by telling them how good they are at doing it.  You are directing them with compliments and stuff, flattering them, so that they want to do what you want them to do.

Having said that, often I find that people want me to be the star and go out on a limb, so that they then have the courage and freedom to portray their part. That is cool as long as you don't get too wrapped up in it. (Popularity is vanity).

There are a couple of attorneys that have used me because they want me to go out on a limb.  I have discovered this in retrospect.  It's pretty funny, although I shouldn't think it's funny, becuase my bar license it at stake, but thank God/the universe that I'm so fucking smart.  But they get the credit after I go out on the limb.  :grin:

Playing dumb can work as long as you are not exposed to the people over a long period of time. I don't recommend it generally."

When I say "go belly up", I'm not really saying "play dumb".  I'm saying be humble.  I don't pretend to be humble.  It comes naturally to me, because I spent so many years being told how stupid I was.  So now, as I am learning that I am smarter than I was told I was when growing up, I am learning that I am smart.  But still, always in the back of my mind is the idea that I am not so smart, that I am really quite stupid. 

So with the idea in mind that I might be wrong, because I'm actually stupid, not smart, I sort of ease up to people with what I "think might work".  Hey, I could be wrong, but let's try this, and you're so good at what you do, I think you could get this done.  If it doesn't work, I'll take the blame, because hey, I told you to do it, and I could be wrong. 

But at the same time, you're right, that there are people that I play somewhat dumb with, because they have a lot of power.  So, let them think they have that power.  What does  it matter to me if they think they have power over me?  I certainly don't care, as long as I get what I want.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2713855 - 05/22/04 03:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I read a book by a harvard psychologist recently, "Intelligence Reframed" by Howard Gardner.

It is about multi-intelligence and his theory is that there are several kinds of intelligence, which the single word can't express well. There is mathematical intelligence, linguistic intelligence (how well u express your thoughts with words), musical intelligence, body coordination intelligence, spacial intelligence(I guess it makes u an architect or painter), intelligence to understand other people and intelligence to understand yourself.

IQ tests may only measure some of those intelligencies. And people in general don't consider an ability to understand other people as interpersonal intelligence, it is called intuition or whatever.

It may be just a question of definitions, but this theory explains nicely such things like a genius mathematician, who can't get along with people - he is just intelligent more in one aspect and less in other.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Intelligence [Re: gotmagog]
    #2713904 - 05/22/04 04:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with that Harvard psychologist.  I have been simply observing, but I have noted that there are people with what I call a "reading" brain and a "math" brain, as just two types of categories under which people usually fall.  Meaning, in general, there are people who are really good at reading and language, and people who are really good at math.  Rarely do you find people good at both.  I know one person good at both.  He's really fucking smart. 

I'm going to get the book you referenced, gotmagog.  Thanks for the recommendation.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2713962 - 05/22/04 04:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

haha if I had known that post was going to start so much drama I would never have posted it.  Usually the support forum is real quiet and isolated. 

Its funny how you mentioned that intelligent people end up having to keep a lot of shit to themselves.  In my time here I have often been very careful about what I say on these forums because the few times I have been completely honest have resulted in drama and controversy.  Some crazy ex-marine threatened to shank me because I gave him my frank and uncensored opinion of the military.  Last time I make that mistake; I'm just glad I made it in the relative anonymnity of the internet and not in real life :smile:

I think that in a society that puts forth such a big effort to run from the truth, and avoid the unpleasant darker side of life, people who are more capable of percieving and communicating the true nature of all things will naturally be persecuted.  The universe is a fucked up place, its definitely not all peaches and cream, but most people desparately try to avoid this truth.  But there always has to be some nerd that comes along and ruins it by pointing out that the sun will explode someday and destroy everything we have ever known. 

People dont wanna hear that shit.  People dont want to hear the right answer because the right answer isnt always pleasant. 

As far as defining intelligence goes, I think that deserves its own thread.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Intelligence [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2715239 - 05/22/04 06:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

One of the things I really liked about the movie "Powder" was that society completely destroyed him. Society always destroys smart people like Jesus and Socrates. I agree with a lot of the reasons you provide for why society does that.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Intelligence [Re: SpecialEd] * 1
    #2717482 - 05/23/04 06:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

experiences of intelligence integrating with the universe (not just society) are a lot more ejoyable than experiences of intelligence pitted against society.

as a kid, society seemed a thing wanting to access my intelligence.

as an adult i see less to fight over, and i have less expectation from society. it is easier to make contributions and move on

i guess i have got in touch with my inner cockroach.


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