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Invisibledorkus
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Registered: 04/12/04
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Consciousness - the hen or the egg?
    #5433147 - 03/23/06 07:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Does consciousness organize as matter (all matter) or does matter exist prior to consciousness and thus neurons produce consciousness?

Is consciousness subjective in nature, or does science misunderstand when they examine the nature of consciousness only from this individual perspective?

Can humanity's thoughtfield be tied up to the earth's electro-magnetic field? If so, would that mean that we are just receivers of thoughts passing through? Which again would be us tuning ourselves to harnest different thoughts/vibrations.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5433273 - 03/23/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Does consciousness organize as matter (all matter) or does matter exist prior to consciousness and thus neurons produce consciousness?




Consciousness (god/spirit/soul) brings forth and controls all matter.


Quote:

Is consciousness subjective in nature, or does science misunderstand when they examine the nature of consciousness only from this individual perspective?




Science can only understand what it is able to see.
Consciousness is unseen/hidden.
Science will often only see what it wants to see.


Quote:

Can humanity's thoughtfield be tied up to the earth's electro-magnetic field? If so, would that mean that we are just receivers of thoughts passing through? Which again would be us tuning ourselves to harnest different thoughts/vibrations.




We are all a part of Earths spirit/soul.
We are all (animal, plant, mineral..Mother Earth) trying to reach a "higher place/next level" in life.

When the collective thoughts/vibrations of the Earth are high enuf we will go thru some form of change.

What this change will be....:shrug:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5433331 - 03/23/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> Can humanity's thoughtfield be tied up to the earth's electro-magnetic field?

Guess that explains why all the astronauts that visited the moon turned into drooling fools as soon as they left Earths orbit...  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5433372 - 03/23/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Does consciousness organize as matter (all matter) or does matter exist prior to consciousness and thus neurons produce consciousness?

It sounds to me you are asking about the Primacy of Existence vs. Primacy of Consciousness metaphysics.
Existence is primary. To be conscious is to be conscious of something. Consciousness with nothing to be aware of is a contradiction in terms. Because to be conscious is to perceive something, consciousness requires something outside of itself in order to function; consciousness requires and is dependent upon, existence.


Is consciousness subjective in nature, or does science misunderstand when they examine the nature of consciousness only from this individual perspective?

Consciousness is subjective - defined as particular to an individual. Consciousness is also objective, for it is integrated into the objective existence of nature. Consciousness is simply the subjective manifestation of the brain's activity - it is not some entity apart from the brain. I reject the mind/brain [or mind/body] dichotomy. There is no more or less "interaction" between our mind and brain then there is between the vision and our eyes; between hearing and our ears, between digestion and our stomach, and so forth. We are one integrated whole.


I couldn't take your third question seriously enough to answer it. But Suess answered it much more succinctly and better than I would have.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Seuss]
    #5433516 - 03/23/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I heard that astronauts leaving comes back with a very changed outlook on life. Maybe a tour to space could be the ultimate mind-expansion. I don't believe that you would be left drooling if your mind was less polluted by a collective drive. I think it would leave you highly aware.

Thank you all for answering. I'm sorry if the question was dumb. :grin:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5433524 - 03/23/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

it is not some entity apart from the brain. I reject the mind/brain [or mind/body] dichotomy. There is no more or less "interaction" between our mind and brain then there is between the vision and our eyes; between hearing and our ears, between digestion and our stomach, and so forth. We are one integrated whole.

:thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5433554 - 03/23/06 09:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Is it possible to have non-local experience of consciousness? To be in a state of no-thingness? And if this is possible, wouldn't it be natural to consider the subjective conscious experience (illusion of separate existence) to merge or sort of glide back into wholeness (nothingness) as infinite potential? If again this were true, wouldn't the identification to form automatically manifest from this infinite potential of nothingness, end therefore emerge anwew?


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OfflineAkira
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5433620 - 03/23/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It all comes down to the age old question, does the world around us mold according to human consciousness or does human consciousness itself mold according to the world around us. Are our ideas a product of an objective reality or is an objective reality a product of our subjective ideas?

I always use to think when my friend asked me that question that if we do say that organized matter is a product of human consciousness, then it would have been impossible for the world to exist before us as it is. Meh.... But in the end I cannot ignore my "religious experiences" (in the words of William James), no matter what questions remain unanswered. We are definately Gods walking in a game of Legos.....


--------------------

Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Akira]
    #5433650 - 03/23/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I saw an interview with the Norwegian author and philosopher Jostein Gaarder who frantic and joyful almost screamed that we were the eyes of the universe.

I don't think the question is about whether the universe is human consciousness, but more that the consciousness would be observing itself through all forms of existence, including the human perspectives.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5433729 - 03/23/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Reality is nothing. Expectation is everything.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5433859 - 03/23/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

To be conscious is to be conscious of something. Consciousness with nothing to be aware of is a contradiction in terms. Because to be conscious is to perceive something, consciousness requires something outside of itself in order to function[.]

How can you know this? I would like to learn more, because it goes against my whole understanding and experience. Do you agree with the Buddhist perspective of illusion of ego, or is that counter to your world-view?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5433897 - 03/23/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Is it possible to have non-local experience of consciousness?

If I understand what you mean correctly, then I must ask: What is the basis for even suggesting/asking such a thing? I admit, I can think of nothing except "out-of-body-experiences".

Ergo, I will expand upon that particular basis. I, have actually experienced two occasions of what others would refer to as an "out-of-body-experience". Both of them occured many years ago when I was in high school, in the Netherlands. One occurred under the influence of a heavy dose of mushrooms, the other; under a heavy dose of mdma/ecstasy.

In the experience of the former, I was basically "out of it", and literally "visited" certain places -all of which were curiously mundane- that I had become acquainted with. But the aspects of these locations which I witnessed were insanely mundane - for example, the corner of a brick in the wall of bricks on the corner of my house, on the lower side, close to the ground - things like that.

The latter, was a far more vivid and lucid experience. I was walking towards my home after a long, long night of mdma-infatuation [to put it discreetly], and it was dark, cold and wet as it had just rained. I came up to my house's door, opened it as stealthily as I could've, took my shoes off and began to walk upstairs..


..And there I was, standing in the middle of the road, in a drugged stupor, well past midnight. It was dark, cold and wet - and I had no longer had shoes on. I didn't see them anywhere. At that moment, I was still so out of it, that I barely registered what precisely happened. And so I continued walking, in my socks.
What I experienced was unbelievably realTM.

But what actually happened in both cases? I literally dreamed while wide-awake. I've learned that hallucinogenic mushrooms activates the same areas of your brain that are active while you are dreaming in your sleep. And I can only conclude that the precise same thing happened under my doseage of mdma - I literally lapsed into my mind's dreamery. And given the context and scenario of what I had experienced with my "mind's eye", it is likely that I was attempting to escape from the reality that I had to walk home in such cold, dark, wetness; I wanted to be in the safe confines of my home.


I've also discussed with other people their own similar experiences, and one that comes to mind was of a fellow Dutchman who reported an "out-of-body"-like experience, under a dose of hallucinogenic mushrooms. He experienced being a witness of himself from behind, while he was walking. Of course, after analyzing and taking into consideration all the facts at hand, we both agreed that it was a form of acute mental imagery/dreamery. The mind has immense capability for this kind of thing.
This reminds me of a humorous quote that comes to mind:
"Thomas Edison did more for civilization than all the gurus and all the world's religions." Steve Jobs

Anyway, to sum up: No I do not think it is possible to have an actual, "non-local" experience of consciousness.


To be in a state of no-thingness?

Is to not exist.

As such, your corollary does not warrant any further response - not from me, anyway.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5434046 - 03/23/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

according to modern science matter cannot be independent of consciousness, without consciousness how can there be matter?


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5434120 - 03/23/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Still what you are describing are subjective experiences, and I am asking about experiences of consciousness outside of time and space. What some epileptics and mystics describe as merging with the Light, or Atman. What I wonder is if people believe Samadhi exists as an undivided state of mind where the inner world would be beheld and observed as direct duplication of the outer. As two sides of the same coin, that the center is everywhere which is nowhere. Non-local.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5434137 - 03/23/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
according to modern science matter cannot be independent of consciousness, without consciousness how can there be matter?




Matter does not require one's faculty of perception to percieve it, in order for it to exist.

I do agree that the experience of matter cannot be indepenent of consciousness, but that is a different story.

Feel free to provide sources to such modern sciences that show otherwise.


Dr_Mandelbrot, I don't understand your question/assertions. You are speaking in a language that is rather incoherent to me.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineAkira
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5434519 - 03/23/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Matter does not require one's faculty of perception to percieve it, in order for it to exist."

^^But it(matter) is not independent from the faculty of ones own perception either. Duality is an illusion of human perception, but that's just my belief dont ask me for any "logical" proof.  :smile:


According to Quantum Theorists it it now known that particles can disapear when their is no observer. Where do they disapear to? How do they (the observer) know they disapear without observing it's disearance? I dont know but alothough


--------------------

Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5434775 - 03/23/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

...There is no more or less "interaction" between our mind and brain then there is between the vision and our eyes...



If you add our whole body and our exteriours to our mind, then yes.
And if you know, that there is a big (not yet fully declared) difference from what we physicaly see and what we mindfully percieve, then yes.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5434939 - 03/23/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i'm personally interested in some of the new quantum models of consciousness which a few scientists are now turning to. here's a link to some publications if anyone is interested:

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/publications.html


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InvisibleMystikMushroom
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Registered: 10/11/04
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5434946 - 03/23/06 03:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Everything is energy. Matter and consciousness too are made of energy. The paradox is in where all the energy of everything came from. The answer is...it never came at all in first place! LOL, It's a paradox that we as rational/logical thinking beings can't seem to understand.

When you are taken out of normal consciousness via power plants of heavy mental training (yogic, tantric, taosit, ect...) you see a more distanced and zoomed out view of reality that shows that everythig that was, is, or will be is in a constant state of flux/oneness.

Everything that can and could happen and has happened is always happening...my life is just one of the celluloid frames stacked somewhere in the infinite, ever moving mobius looking master stack.

I just wish I knew how to navigate my consciousness into and out of them, bookmark favorite ones, and exist for however long I pleased in them. . .

I need more training... :confused:


Edited by MystikMushroom (03/23/06 03:32 PM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5437883 - 03/24/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Does consciousness organize as matter (all matter) or does matter exist prior to consciousness and thus neurons produce consciousness?

Is consciousness subjective in nature, or does science misunderstand when they examine the nature of consciousness only from this individual perspective?

Can humanity's thoughtfield be tied up to the earth's electro-magnetic field? If so, would that mean that we are just receivers of thoughts passing through? Which again would be us tuning ourselves to harnest different thoughts/vibrations.




What's consciousness?


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