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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5452832 - 03/28/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Great thread here.  :smile: :smile:

The truth can only be experienced first hand. 

look up blavatsky


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5452967 - 03/28/06 08:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That honestly sounds like a nihilistic approach to things.

Good for you, you're a tough guy! You can handle it!

I cannot. This world is utterly absurd. It's dreadfully painful. It's not painful because of wars, stress, sickness, and disease. It is painful for me because it seperates me from God - but it's a needed process. A face needs to be attached to my spark first, and I am thankful to God for all I got, and for all the people I have gotten to know. Maybe I'm weak - but this doesn't make me spiritually immature. It makes me a curious seeker, as one who seeks is generally unsatisfied anyway, and that is what feeds a matured curiousity. A hauty mentality is an immature one.

You, like many others, simply do not need God. You seem content with eternal sleep instead of eternal life, so more power to you. I had a friend who once talked about how excited he was about death because "you're asleep forever and never have to worry about anything ever again.". Stuff like that scares me.

This nihilistic muchismo is what is really immature. I'm no tough guy, Skorp. But I am aware as to where I'm going, and that is straight to the Breast of God where I'll burn in the Light forever. It's not even a matter of faith, but knowledge - gnosis. I know what awaits my being. And with a bit of luck, I'll still be able to communincate with loved ones in the Light of God, including my dead dog, who was also not a tough guy (he was a shy pooch)... spiritual maturity and imagination go hand in hand, because anything is possible with God. Hazrat Inayat Khan used to always talk about the power of imagination, and how the self can live an unlimited life within.

You probably believe that since I "need" God that I simply created this post-mortem fantasy in my head. It is the need for God in people that brings them into the Light. God is to the consciousness and heart what water and food is to the flesh. Without God - consciousness dies. It dies - it disappears, and that person becomes dust forever. That is the real tragedy. A man can survive about two months tops without food. A very tough man at that. Likewise, without God, one can only remain conscious for as long as their brain and organs are fully functional.

What do you have to lose anyway, other than your pride? Use your imagination. The second you use your imagination to fathom God's love for you, He begins to reveal the actual nature of reality to the lover. What starts off as childlike faith matures into complete knowledge of reality. The leap of faith - that moment of innocence in the heart, however, is the only requirement for gnosis. There is an Islamic hadith that chokes me up everytime I read it, "You come to me walking, I come to you running." All it takes is single honest step. One step foward, and the hidden secret comes charging at you like a bull. Where is God the rational mind asks? He's everywhere, waiting for everyone. He is silenly screaming "Know me!" But those who refuse to seek Him will never know Him, for it is metaphysically impossible for God to reveal herself to a being that refuses to understand or identify. Even if He wanted to give eternal life to deceased materialists, He couldn't. It's impossible, because only those who have become divine may enter the Divine.

At this point for me at least, there's no turning back. Just like physical growth, it is impossible to become "younger" again. The same applies to the growth of the soul. Once it grows to the point where gnosis is possible, regressing to a previous state is an impossibility.

God bless


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5453008 - 03/28/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

St_Valentinus said:
That honestly sounds like a nihilistic approach to things.

Good for you, you're a tough guy! You can handle it!

I cannot. This world is utterly absurd. It's dreadfully painful. It's not painful because of wars, stress, sickness, and disease. It is painful for me because it seperates me from God - but it's a needed process. A face needs to be attached to my spark first, and I am thankful to God for all I got, and for all the people I have gotten to know. Maybe I'm weak - but this doesn't make me spiritually immature. It makes me a curious seeker, as one who seeks is generally unsatisfied anyway, and that is what feeds a matured curiousity. A hauty mentality is an immature one.

You, like many others, simply do not need God. You seem content with eternal sleep instead of eternal life, so more power to you. I had a friend who once talked about how excited he was about death because "you're asleep forever and never have to worry about anything ever again.". Stuff like that scares me.

This nihilistic muchismo is what is really immature. I'm no tough guy, Skorp. But I am aware as to where I'm going, and that is straight to the Breast of God where I'll burn in the Light forever. It's not even a matter of faith, but knowledge - gnosis. I know what awaits my being. And with a bit of luck, I'll still be able to communincate with loved ones in the Light of God, including my dead dog, who was also not a tough guy (he was a shy pooch)... spiritual maturity and imagination go hand in hand, because anything is possible with God. Hazrat Inayat Khan used to always talk about the power of imagination, and how the self can live an unlimited life within.

You probably believe that since I "need" God that I simply created this post-mortem fantasy in my head. It is the need for God in people that brings them into the Light. God is to the consciousness and heart what water and food is to the flesh. Without God - consciousness dies. It dies - it disappears, and that person becomes dust forever. That is the real tragedy. A man can survive about two months tops without food. A very tough man at that. Likewise, without God, one can only remain conscious for as long as their brain and organs are fully functional.

What do you have to lose anyway, other than your pride? Use your imagination. The second you use your imagination to fathom God's love for you, He begins to reveal the actual nature of reality to the lover. What starts off as childlike faith matures into complete knowledge of reality. The leap of faith - that moment of innocence in the heart, however, is the only requirement for gnosis. There is an Islamic hadith that chokes me up everytime I read it, "You come to me walking, I come to you running." All it takes is single honest step. One step foward, and the hidden secret comes charging at you like a bull. Where is God the rational mind asks? He's everywhere, waiting for everyone. He is silenly screaming "Know me!" But those who refuse to seek Him will never know Him, for it is metaphysically impossible for God to reveal herself to a being that refuses to understand or identify. Even if He wanted to give eternal life to deceased materialists, He couldn't. It's impossible, because only those who have become divine may enter the Divine.

At this point for me at least, there's no turning back. Just like physical growth, it is impossible to become "younger" again. The same applies to the growth of the soul. Once it grows to the point where gnosis is possible, regressing to a previous state is an impossibility.

God bless




:thumbup:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5453261 - 03/28/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This nihilistic muchismo is what is really immature.

Yes, indeed, it truly is much more mature to console yourself with conjectures and ridicule those inferior beings who demanded evidence.

It's not painful because of wars, stress, sickness, and disease. It is painful for me because it seperates me from God

It is unfortunate that rather than finding wars, stress, sickness, and disease a source of pain, you're concerned about your attachment to God.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/28/06 09:56 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5453290 - 03/28/06 09:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Wow!

:heart:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5453300 - 03/28/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Nihilistic? No, I do not have some sort of "eh, fuck it all, who cares, nothing matters, so what, bah humbug" attitude. But given your mystical bias, I am not surprised that you interpreted my position as that.

First you claim that I'm spiritually immature because I do not wonder, or am in awe of greater mysteries.

Then I clarify that your perception was mistaken, and that it is the intellectual raping of such mystery that I do not follow, and that I do in fact "fathom".

Then you retort that I'm nihilistic because of this? Please.


But I must admit, I'm quite surprised at how honest you are in elucidating your feelings throughout your post. Not sure if this was entirely subliminal or what. You admit that you perceive the world as painful, and that God is your escape.
You admit that the imagination [!] is the greatest asset to your "spiritual maturity", which apparently you measure by the magnitude of blind, intellectual groping in the darkness; by faith, rather than reason.


Overlooking the fact that you didn't at least extend the courtesy to clarify what definition of "God" you are going by [which is an extremely muddled up, multi-defined word as it is], I will leave it to the readers of this thread to decide for themselves whether or not they should conscientiously live their life based on scrupulous facts, objective knowledge, reason and in reality..or blindly live their life on groundless beliefs that the next mystic peddles them, blind faith at mercy of their emotions, whims and under constant assault from reality.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/28/06 10:07 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5453341 - 03/28/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"
Overlooking the fact that you didn't at least extend the courtesy to clarify what definition of "God" you are going by [which is an extremely muddled up, multi-defined word as it is],"

funny how i understand what he means perfectly.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Deviate]
    #5453883 - 03/29/06 02:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I see many unbalanced and extreme, if not dangerously wrong points in Skopicos posts. Perhaps I will find the muse to point them out, later.
Inbetween: St.Valentinus: :thumbup: :heart: :Markos


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5453971 - 03/29/06 04:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, imagination! Existence is but a dream. When the imagination realizes it is a dream, it begins to live an unlimited life - in a way, the imagination manipulates physics in transrationality, allowing consciousness to become transcendental. But, like consciousness within its own dream, it is not aware that it is in a dream. It mistakes the theatre they are witnessing for reality.

The spiritual imagination allows consciousness to awaken to its own reality. You demand empirical data. Why? What kind of precept is that for a genuine relationship - a genuine appreciation of one another, as is the substance between God and a beloved? The lovers of God are but a thin cloth on the countenance of the Divine.

I may not be able to bend spoons with my mind, but I learned how transcend the dream of physics. Anyone can, really. All it takes is that one leap of faith - rebirth. A mystic in many ways can be described as born again, but still aging.

What do you have to lose? Is being branded as "irrational" by a few of your peers really the end of the world (excuse the irony)? Faith is not irrational. It is transrational. You have to believe that you are trapped inside a dream before being presented with the knowledge that you really are actually inside a dream. That is spiritual growth; the transition from faith to knowledge.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5454112 - 03/29/06 07:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey and scorpivo :heart: :heart: of course, too. I like discussion with you :thumbup: Let's see if that will lead somewhere :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5455370 - 03/29/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

funny how i understand what he means perfectly.

Then you should clarify Valentinus's God for us befuddled unbelievers.

You demand empirical data. Why?

Beyond the realm of empirical data, anything goes. If we disregard the empiric base of knowledge, we could construct a valid argument that the Earth is shaped like a cone and is resting on the back of a giant purple turtle. If you abandon empiricism, what is to stop a person from believing this? What constitutes a sound belief?

Knowledge of the universe is not derived from merely thinking about the universe and describing, based exclusively on your introspective thoughts, how it functions (baseless rationale such as geocentricism or impetus), instead it is derived from observing the universe.

Why do I demand empiric data? Because, without it, you're alone with unverifiable speculations.

How many new discoveries have been a result of faith, verses a result of research? Why should I adopt faith and abort evidence?


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5455874 - 03/29/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The Big Bang was the singularity. All that is, is all that was, at the moment of the big bang. Now separated by time and space, but still all that is.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5455928 - 03/29/06 05:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am an empiricist with empirical matters, and a mystic with mystical matters.
We both understand that faith in sensory data and reason can put men on the moon, but that kind of faith is helpless in human depth psychology and quality of interpersonal relationships, and useless in the apprehension of mystical Unity. It is a very sterile kind of mechanical 'thinking' which requires elements from the non-rational parts of mind in order to introduce novelty, creativity and inventiveness. I am reminded of Fredrich Kekule's dream of the Ouroboric serpent (a snake with its tail in its mouth for the uninitiated). When Kekule had this dream image, he realized the ring structure of benzene and upon that insight he single-handedly shifted the whole paradigm of organic chemistry and all that followed. The Ouroboros is an archetype of the Collective Unconscious, and a symbol that appeared to the ancient mystics along with transformational insights of transcendental matters. It is kind of like those black monoliths in '2001: A Space Odyssey,' which appeared whenever a radical paradigm shift was about to happen. In Kekule's case the insight was empirical, to the Gnostics the insight was mystical.

The empirical (physical) domain is informed by the empirically psychic domain, which in turn derives from yet deeper sources that are un-conscious and therefore not rational. The whole apparatus of rational, ego-based perceptual thinking originated in prerational unconsciousness. Many advocates of isolated rationality as the defining identity of consciousness even deny the existence of the unconscious! Like a lotus flower which originates in dark muddy origins, grows up into waters which grow less and less murky and more and more clear, only to emerge in the air and light, the ancients used this plant as an apt symbol for mind: preconscious, conscious and superconscious or prerational, rational and transrational.

Existentialists, exclusivist empiricists and atheists often have a lot in common. Their's is a reality that is perceptibly organic only in the domain of biology, leaving out the greater meaning of 'organic' (merely the sterile dictionary definition) which draws upon many other vectors of development in the empirical universe; vectors which, when taken collectively, illustrate to the mystical mind The Great Chain of Being, and the whole as infinitely more than the sum of its parts. The empirical existentialist cannot "see a world in a grain of sand and a heaven in a wildflower" after the manner of a poet. Whereas the presence of centromeres, spindles and genes in a dividing cytoplasmic cell seems comprehensibly purposeful to the life of a cell, and perhaps by extension to the life of an organism that is embedded in the biosphere, the notion of star nurseries contributing stellar bodies (rather than Golgi bodies) to galaxies in a expanding universe with an unknown teleology remains non-teleological - purposeless, designless, meaninglessly phenomenal to the empirical existentialist! The cosmic perspective is absent, such a one cannot see the forest for the trees!

Rather than spiritual immaturity, I sense spiritual nearsightedness. The micro level which can be grokked empirically is available to rational consciousness, but the Macro level which defies mere rationality cannot be "grokked in fulness." It is a myopic spirituality, and like all kinds of blindness it is horrible and sad. The ONE, the At-One-Ment, is just not available. It can't be described any more than color can be described to a blind man. Like you, I agree/feel that it is the "mystic vision" that makes mere existence livable. It provides a passion which exceeds and outlasts all the embodied-based passions. In the dying words of Thomas Alva Edison: "More Light!"



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5456052 - 03/29/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, imagination! Existence is but a dream.

St. Valentinus wrote:

You seem content with eternal sleep instead of eternal life, so more power to you. I had a friend who once talked about how excited he was about death because "you're asleep forever and never have to worry about anything ever again.". Stuff like that scares me.

Now look who's really at "sleep" here.


The spiritual imagination allows consciousness to awaken to its own reality

One's imagination certainly allows for one to escape from reality. But imagination doesn't pay for the prices of such evasion.


You demand empirical data. Why?

In addition to what MushmantheManic said: Self-respect. You, on the other hand, demand blind faith. Why?


What do you have to lose?

What do I have to lose by being irrational, by following blind faith, by promoting the refusal or inability to think; to reason? Damn near everything. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass. As a healthy adult, I cannot and will not regress as you'd so like.
Allow me to demonstrate. Here are the four stages of spiritual growth:
1)
Infantile Narcissism [unprincipled whim worship] - healthy folks exit this stage at age 3 [hence the term: 'the terrible twos'].

2)
Mysticism [blind adoption of unearthly - read: unreal - principles] - healthy folks usually exit this stage between the ages of 10 and 20.

3)
Skepticism [a dis-reverence of principles] -- healthy folks usually exit this stage between the ages of 15 and 30.

4)
Objectivism [proper reverence of proper principle] - healthy folks never exit this stage [once entered].

It is also important to note that stages can't be skipped. You must [at least, metaphorically] go 'through' them, or you are doomed for a future backslide. Reality usually forces folks to exit stage 1, but collectives [think of Fundamentalists] can work to keep folks stuck in stage 2. Exiting stage 2 is scary - because of the deep-seated [though imaginary] comfort that it affords. The jump to stage 4 involves identification of the immutability of certain principles [which were previously thought mutable].



Faith is not irrational. It is transrational.

To imply that accepting a premise at face-value, a belief without [or against] any rational or sensory evidence has so much as a shred of rational element in it, is pure folly. If anything, faith is anti-rational. Faith is an act of mental destruction. If there is no evidence for a claim, then accepting it is irrational. It is more likely to be false then true [since there are more false ideas then true ones, being that there is only one reality]. Building a structure of knowledge on such a flimsy foundation will leave it shaky and unstable. Eventually, even if confronted with evidence against it, one's mind will be so dependent on the belief that fear of one's world view collapsing will encourage one to reject the evidence. When this happens, one acts against reality. This is an act of destruction.


You have to believe that you are trapped inside a dream before being presented with the knowledge that you really are actually inside a dream.

Just like how one has to believe in ghosts, goblins or demons for one to "see" them? Just how like one has to believe that the lady with a crystal ball is psychic, for one to have an "accurate" reading? You are suggesting that I suspend my critical thinking skills, read: lapse into ignorance, so that I can revert to the mentality of a primitive savage, who'll accept any arbitrary premise at face value. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass.


That is spiritual growth; the transition from faith to knowledge

Spiritual growth does not stem from falsehood. Faith does not give rise to knowledge. Reason is the only basis for knowledge. Knowledge requires clarity and the identification of limits and boundaries. Only reason can collect sensory data into something meaningful, which is clear and definable. To speak of knowledge that we don't understand is a contradiction in terms. Emotions, perceptual memories, or vague notions are not knowledge. Knowledge is lucid and can only be formed by the use of reason. Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the information provided from our senses, into concepts. The method it employs is logic; the art of noncontradictory identification. Reason is the only grounds upon which all men can meet. There is no other path. Reason is absolute.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Basilides]
    #5456296 - 03/29/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Reason is the only basis for knowledge."

No different than a Fundamentalist Christian with a valuation of reason instead of faith in Jesus Christ as the means for apprehension. Absolutist. Idolatrous. Imagine someone who enters into a personal relationship - a sexual relationship - in which one cannot 'know another after the flesh,' because "reason" is the "only basis for knowledge," because Reason is absolute. ["Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!"]

I believed this weltanschauung until I was about 19. At 18 I had written "Fuck for Science" on the wall next to my bed in phosphate-laden laundry detergent, so it would glow purple-white under my black-light. What was I thinking? This was not really going to charm the girls I was trying to bed. It was not romantic, it was not poetic, or philosophical. It made no sense at all to anyone but to me. "HEY Everybody! I'm into science!" [Response: Who cares? Life and love are not scientific problems to be solved, nor do scientific 'hows?' have anything to do with possibile 'whys?'] This is what early 20th century occultists called 'The Vision of the Machinery of the Universe.' It is an H.R. Giger vision. It is identification with The Matrix. It is the nighmare from which I am awakening.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5456490 - 03/29/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We both understand that faith in sensory data and reason can put men on the moon, but that kind of faith is helpless in human depth psychology and quality of interpersonal relationships

Sensory data does not require faith. It is observed, and open for all to see.
To imply that reason [and sensory data] is helpless in psychology and interpersonal relationships, is quite incorrect.


It is a very sterile kind of mechanical 'thinking' which requires elements from the non-rational parts of mind in order to introduce novelty, creativity and inventiveness.

I suspect you think reason [or objective thinking] must be seperate from passion. Since reason and objectivity is the act of conforming one's thoughts to reality, it should be clear that this is possible regardless of any influences.


Existentialists, exclusivist empiricists and atheists often have a lot in common. Their's is a reality that is perceptibly organic only in the domain of biology, leaving out the greater meaning of 'organic' (merely the sterile dictionary definition) which draws upon many other vectors of development in the empirical universe; vectors which, when taken collectively, illustrate to the mystical mind The Great Chain of Being, and the whole as infinitely more than the sum of its parts.

If you imply that I cannot or do not symbolize as you've done, you are incorrect. I am quite capable of being poetic in my conception of existence. However, I do not mistake my subjective [as in particular to], poetic expressions to equate with metaphysical reality. I am epistemological in epistemology, and metaphysical in metaphysics. Furthermore, I have learned the importance of understanding Numeracy.


No different than a Fundamentalist Christian with a valuation of reason instead of faith in Jesus Christ as the means for apprehension. Absolutist.

Indeed - absolutist is the common point. As such, it is unfortunate that Christianity [and such] has given absolutism a bad name with their arbitrariness. However, when a principle is absolutist because it reflects a metaphysical absolutism of nature, it is a justified absolutism.

I'd like to ask you: Are you implying that I am spiritually short-sighted? If so, then I ask: Am I spiritually short-sighted regarding matters we CAN and DO know - here on Earth; or only in esoteric matters, dealing with "other-worldly" realms?




--------------------
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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5456838 - 03/29/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Great post :thumbup:

I think of rationality as something that is very adaptive. It is exercised in barnacle-laden moments of everyday life - it has to, I would think. At the same time, these almost unconscious routines in existence refine the myopic spiritual mind-set. People begin to only identify themselves with their empirical identities instead of the true self - that spark of divinity that became clothed in flesh at physical birth. I think of this spark as much like a seed that needs to be nurtured so it can flourish. The sprouting of unconscious nature to the fully conscious relationship with God is full off hidden potential.

The kind of passion life has with God is indescribable. It is as if the world is in control (and not random), in the unravelling moment. I have dreams that are more or less reminders of God's love. At times I can taste the fullness of God, and it soaks the heart like polish. And the type of people I encounter in life, I see these as esoteric tests, opportunities and blessings, that go well beyond coincidence. Opportunities to help people and opportunities to learn from people.

Honestly, I can go on all day as to the many ways God has given intense purpose to my life. Other people notice this, and with a bit a luck, they'll wonder if they might be missing out on something spectacular; because life in the Light of the Divine is sweet.  :sun:



--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5457052 - 03/29/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Now look who's really at "sleep" here.

In what way? I see the theatre of life for the dream that it is. I do not confuse it any longer with reality, but rather as an idea - God's idea. God's dream. Exactly what makes a tree "real"? What makes anything in existence "real"?

One's imagination certainly allows for one to escape from reality. But imagination doesn't pay for the prices of such evasion.

It is imagination that comes to understand reality. I do not regard existence as reality. If was reality, it would illuminate in metaphysical discorporation. It does not. Rather, what you regard as reality becomes so subtle in such discorporation, it is the grand counterpart of repeating a word over and over again until it loses all meaning despite it's continued recitation. I do not see how it can possibly be regarded as definitive reality on the simple basis that it is known and understood on a definitive level as individuals know it.

In addition to what MushmantheManic said: Self-respect. You, on the other hand, demand blind faith. Why?

Self-respect? In your own eyes or that of other people?

It is also important to note that stages can't be skipped. You must [at least, metaphorically] go 'through' them, or you are doomed for a future backslide. Reality usually forces folks to exit stage 1, but collectives [think of Fundamentalists] can work to keep folks stuck in stage 2. Exiting stage 2 is scary - because of the deep-seated [though imaginary] comfort that it affords. The jump to stage 4 involves identification of the immutability of certain principles [which were previously thought mutable].

Fundamentalists and Mystics couldn't possibly be in the sane developmental stage of one another. Explain how you came to this preclusion?


To imply that accepting a premise at face-value, a belief without [or against] any rational or sensory evidence has so much as a shred of rational element in it, is pure folly. If anything, faith is anti-rational. Faith is an act of mental destruction. If there is no evidence for a claim, then accepting it is irrational. It is more likely to be false then true [since there are more false ideas then true ones, being that there is only one reality]. Building a structure of knowledge on such a flimsy foundation will leave it shaky and unstable. Eventually, even if confronted with evidence against it, one's mind will be so dependent on the belief that fear of one's world view collapsing will encourage one to reject the evidence. When this happens, one acts against reality. This is an act of destruction.


What evidence is there against the Mystery?

Just like how one has to believe in ghosts, goblins or demons for one to "see" them? Just how like one has to believe that the lady with a crystal ball is psychic, for one to have an "accurate" reading? You are suggesting that I suspend my critical thinking skills, read: lapse into ignorance, so that I can revert to the mentality of a primitive savage, who'll accept any arbitrary premise at face value. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass.

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot - to name a few demons, goblins and ghouls. I do not use my imagination literally or legalistically. I use it mystically.

Spiritual growth does not stem from falsehood. Faith does not give rise to knowledge. Reason is the only basis for knowledge. Knowledge requires clarity and the identification of limits and boundaries. Only reason can collect sensory data into something meaningful, which is clear and definable. To speak of knowledge that we don't understand is a contradiction in terms. Emotions, perceptual memories, or vague notions are not knowledge. Knowledge is lucid and can only be formed by the use of reason. Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the information provided from our senses, into concepts. The method it employs is logic; the art of noncontradictory identification. Reason is the only grounds upon which all men can meet. There is no other path. Reason is absolute.

Faith in God is the prerequisite of Trust in Truth. Without it, there is no compliment between God and man. The relationship is hardly mutual if your devotion to Mystery is conditional - read: limited.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5457399 - 03/29/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Firstly, I'd like to clarify that I've not committed philosophical suicide, so consequentially, I'm not an Existentialist!

We both understand that faith in sensory data and reason can put men on the moon, but that kind of faith is helpless in human depth psychology and quality of interpersonal relationships

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "depth psychology" but...
If you were unable to observe your interactions with others, and the results of such interactions, I highly doubt you'd be able to form meaningful relationships or even comprehend what a 'relationship' was. Empiricism and rationalism both seem extremely useful to interpersonal relationships.

The empirical existentialist cannot "see a world in a grain of sand and a heaven in a wildflower" after the manner of a poet.

I don't see why not.

Their's is a reality that is perceptibly organic only in the domain of biology, leaving out the greater meaning of 'organic' (merely the sterile dictionary definition) which draws upon many other vectors of development in the empirical universe; vectors which, when taken collectively, illustrate to the mystical mind The Great Chain of Being, and the whole as infinitely more than the sum of its parts.

What you call The Great Chain of Being, I call causality. I think empiricism and Daoism are readily compatible.
"Nothing occurs at random, but everything occurs for a reason and by necessity."

Whereas the presence of centromeres, spindles and genes in a dividing cytoplasmic cell seems comprehensibly purposeful to the life of a cell, and perhaps by extension to the life of an organism that is embedded in the biosphere, the notion of star nurseries contributing stellar bodies (rather than Golgi bodies) to galaxies in a expanding universe with an unknown teleology remains non-teleological - purposeless, designless, meaninglessly phenomenal to the empirical existentialist!

Everything in biology serves the purpose of continuation and hath no other master.

Rather than spiritual immaturity, I sense spiritual nearsightedness.

I think you may be confusing doubt with absolute denial. I don't deny the possibility of anything, but I don't claim absolute certainty of anything either.

I freely speculate on 'the meaning behind it all' what it is, whether it exists or not, what if means for me, etc. I have a few suspicions, but no solid beliefs. In the end, all my speculation is still speculation, and I make sure to remember this. As Robert Anton Wilson so eloquently put it, "If you think you know what the hell is going on, you're probably full of shit."

It is a myopic spirituality, and like all kinds of blindness it is horrible and sad.

That is your subjective evaluation. Personally, I couldn't be happier with my philosophical position. You'll never be able to enjoy the near infinite void of wonder if you constrain yourself with beliefs and delusions. Even if I was shown undeniable evidence that Objectivism or Christianty was correct, I'd still be tempted to still cling to my current worldview, because it makes everything so damn interesting and wonderful.

"For the average man, the world is weird because if he's not bored with it, he's at odds with it. For a warrior, the world is weird because it is stupendous, awesome, mysterious, unfathomable."


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/29/06 09:55 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5457482 - 03/29/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"That is your subjective evaluation. Personally, I couldn't be happier with my philosophical position. You'll never be able to enjoy the near infinite void of wonder if you constrain yourself with beliefs and delusions."

so you're saying you have no beliefs?

"Even if I was shown undeniable evidence that Objectivism or Christianty was correct, I'd still be tempted to still cling to my current worldview, because it makes everything so damn interesting and wonderful."

isn't that the exact type of irrationality you've been arguing against?


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