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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5437911 - 03/24/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That is exactly what I am wondering. Some seem to think of it as the subjective experience of being.

What is your take on it?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MystikMushroom]
    #5438120 - 03/24/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

mymu :smile: Very well said. I have often trouble navigating there, too. But I think that is normal in 'common' life; so one needs some 'quiet-zones' to focus and bring clearance into ones mind back again.
I am missing it for quite a long time now, and got sick of flue in consequence of a failing immune-system.
This gets me a little break, but life in full is some artistic act of balance to keep ones mind stable (in)between many aspects, for our consciousness will sustain in some beneficial, healthy, useful and 'free' manner.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOctavius
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5438199 - 03/24/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Conciousness is highly obective for without brain matter there is nothing to give off the sparks of our true being.


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OfflineAkira
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Octavius]
    #5438633 - 03/24/06 02:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

^^Einstein said that if we were to use 100% of our brains we would no longer require physical bodies and instead become pure energy, thus having no more "brain matter" to spark consciousness...........

Consciousness transcends all forms of the "empirically known" human experience.


--------------------

Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh


Edited by Akira (03/24/06 02:53 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5438813 - 03/24/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"...to be conscious is to perceive something, consciousness requires something outside of itself in order to function..."

Only in the parlance of materialism. Consciousness, even for Husserlian Phenomenologists*, can be conscious of itself. This is reflexive consciousness and describes a process of involution that is is often considered the 'mechanism' of the Transcendental Ego.

If the physical universe developed from a zero-dimension Singularity, then the Reality itself and the apprehension of what came before physics seems to me to be metaphysical, by definition. I therefore assume the stance of Intuition as the most appropriate psychic function that I possess in order to have any kind of knowledge of THAT which gave rise to the universe. Thinking, Feeling and Sensing have no affinity for apprehending Mystery (using Jungian categories), and Mystery preceeds manifestation, hence the primacy of consciousness.

I personally stand with the Kabbalists who describe intuitively the notion of Tsim-Tsum - the formation of the Singularity by a
'withdrawal' of the Infinite density the 'distance' of a Singularity, into which the realm of Pure Ideas could begin to manifest (exist), 'externally' as you say from the Divine Mind. Like a 'contractile vacuole' in an Infinite Amoeba, the universe continues to expand, with the curved 'boundary' expanding into the 'Infinite Divine Substance.' The universe could expand eternally into the Infinity of God, but others, like the Hindus, say that it will collapse upon itself, returning to the Singularity - perhaps to repeat the process forever with infinite variations.

In whatever scheme, THAT which is ontologically prior to creation is ontos, Being - Essence - hence, philosophically, 'Essence precedes Existence,' or 'God precedes Creation' theologically cast.

* I don't know if anyone ever footnoted before, but here is a brief 'clear' description of what I'm referencing. My former materialistic perception of 'Existence precedes Essence' was caused by my failure to push further back into the source of my mentation. Hence:

" The transcendental-phenomenological reduction is a methodological device, required before one can begin to do phenomenology. Roughly, it is the transition from an ordinary, straightforward attitude toward the world and the objects in to a reflective attitude....Once we perform the reduction, Husserl claimed, we discover what he called 'the transcendental ego,' or 'pure consciousness,' for which everything that exists is an object. We discover that whatever is in the world is only as an object for our pure consciousness...Phenomenology is now characterized as the exploration and description of a realm of being, previously unsuspected, which is the absolute foundation of the experienced world, a realm of being, moreover, which is not accessible to empirical observation but only to phenomenological description and to something Husserl called 'eidetic intuition'...Because the existence of the transcendental ego is indubitable, its discovery serves both to distinguish phenomenology from the empirical sciences and to provide the Archimedean point at which to begin our studies."

From The Encyclopedia of Philosophy , Volumes 3 and 4, p.98


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5438873 - 03/24/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you, Markos. I was hoping you would give your take on this.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5438947 - 03/24/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I can't help myself when people who frequent The Shroomery of all places, continue to remain 'unconverted' to a non-materialistic perspective of Reality. I suppose that I have waxed somewhat fanatical with regard to this, but maybe I have been blessed with some penetratingly illuminative experiences that made it impossible for me to consider that 'creation gave rise to God.' Unless existence-creation is itself eternal in a static universe, (which seems unlikely), then there is a point of creation, prior to which there was only Mystery. Mystery then precedes manifestation. Mystery precedes physics, and is therefore metaphysical and non-physical. But I'm repeating myself.  :blush:

'Pete and Repeat were in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?'  :crazy:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5438978 - 03/24/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I've thought that too. During the psychedelic experience consciousness ridden spirit-stuff is everywhere. It's observing an obvious infrastructure, and it's fascinating that so many people today are tripping and not seeing this. There's nothing particularly fantastic about this, since it's just witnessing the obvious. I don't get how people can see a million different things at once, instead of seeing several events unravelling towards a singular moment.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5439952 - 03/24/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't disagree that a consciousness can be conscious of itself - as in introspection.

However, I disagree with any absurd notion that implies separating consciousness from existence.

Here is why.

-Consciousness is an emergent property of our brain's neural network and related phenomena.
-Consciousness is the faculty of perceiving that which exists.
-Without the existent of our brain, we have no consciousness.
-Therefore, our consciousness depends on existence.


Furthermore,
-Consciousness is a process of constituents of reality performing operations on other constituents of reality, where former constituents are "operators" and latter constituents are "operands".
-A process is a change that constituents of reality go through as reality changes over time.


Ergo,
-It is trivial to think of a small Reality, one that has operators and operands, where the operators are operating on operands and the operands are simply parts of the small Reality, and the operators are parts of the small Reality, the operators only operate on "itself" where "itself" is the small Reality.


I can't help myself when people who frequent The Shroomery of all places, continue to remain 'unconverted' to a non-materialistic perspective of Reality.

Unconverted to the mysticism of spirit, as opposed to the mysticism of meat?
If simply recognizing that existence has primacy over consciousness makes me a "materialist" in your eyes - if the false alternative of materialism/idealism is all you are cognizant of, then oh well.

Markos wrote:
"Essence precedes Existence"

Non-sequitur. Essence cannot precede existence. Essence must exist, before it can even begin to precede anything at all. Existence is all there is, there isn't anything that "precedes" it. Anything that would precede it, would have to exist - thus negating the premise that it "precedes existence".
The premise precedes the proof. Existence precedes consciousness.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/24/06 11:34 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5440141 - 03/25/06 12:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Non-sequitur. Essence cannot precede existence. Essence must exist, before it can even begin to precede anything at all. Existence is all there is, there isn't anything that "precedes" it. Anything that would precede it, would have to exist - thus negating the premise that it "precedes existence".
The premise precedes the proof. Existence precedes consciousness.




I think when he says "existence" he is referring to physics and materiality, not ideas like the "existence of essence". Essence is what sustains all that exists. It is the essence of mystery that made material existence an extensive manifestation in the first place. Essence exists, but essence is not physical existence. COnsciousness precedes existence, because it is existence itself that co-creates individual consciousness. The substance of each individual before manifestation is simply unarticulated essence; sparks of essence that have not yet absorbed an experience through existence. It is much like a mirror and a beholder.

Mystery makes up the metaphysical blue print of sequential, moment-to-moment unfolding existence. Each "moment" in materiality essentially replaces the previous one, unveiling an all-persisting NOW - essence, mystery, divinity.. these are all words attributed to Ultimate Reality. Mystery does precede physics. Physical existence is a "known" substance. What is known manifests from the Great Unknown.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5440240 - 03/25/06 02:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Existence is conceptual (man, ape, stone,...). There is something prior to some existence what exists before and so on until you come to the final and first cause :wink: (prior to our perception of existence, what makes an existence itself, was the perceived object and that formed out of something, too, you know, the Apfelstrudel :wink:)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5440451 - 03/25/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Every one of your premises are contrary to the spiritual/metaphysical position. I have already amply expressed examples pertaining to the spiritual and you refuse or are unable to regress to the same point of origin but establish yourself in conditions of 'stable' existence long after origination has occured, and without any comment on the Mystery which precedes creation.

You are like Newton, explaining how things work in a macro sense but completely ignorant of how things operate on a micro or quantum level. Completely different conditions, completely different governing principles, completely different implications for the ultimate nature of material reality.

You are defining the neurologically based models of brain consciousness and fail to grok that Consciousness (AKA Spirit) is posited by the spiritual/metaphysical position as GOD. Thus, it is upon the Reality of GOD that this position is taken, as the eternal Ground of Being. So, if you wish to insist that there is no such eternal Ground of Being (no attributes or lack thereof being debated here), no 'infrastructure' of Ultimate Reality, then we cannot proceed with this interaction. We have a stalemate.

There is no such thing as a "mysticism of meat." You do not return to first principles when you attempt to define phenomena with the term mysticism - a term which has nothing whatsoever to do with the complexity of the human-mammalian biological entity which exists in the milieu of Earth's biosphere. If you are interested in a mysticism that 'encompasses' the complexity of biological and phenomenal existence in general, I would enthusiastically recommend that you take a look at any of the works by priest-paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (e.g., The Phenomenon Man, The Future of Man, The Divine Milieu, Human Energy, Hymn of the Universe, Prayer of the Universe). Any of these works would address the empirical nature of existence yet organize the Great Chain of Being under the Mystical Body (Chardin was a Catholic) of what he called "The Omega Point." Or not.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5441012 - 03/25/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Does consciousness organize as matter (all matter) or does matter exist prior to consciousness and thus neurons produce consciousness?

the second one.

Is consciousness subjective in nature, or does science misunderstand when they examine the nature of consciousness only from this individual perspective?

huh?

Can humanity's thoughtfield be tied up to the earth's electro-magnetic field?

what is a "thoughtfield"?


--------------------



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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5441471 - 03/25/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Markos:
In whatever scheme, THAT which is ontologically prior to creation is ontos, Being - Essence - hence, philosophically, 'Essence precedes Existence,' or 'God precedes Creation' theologically cast.

Skorpivo:
Existence is all there is, there isn't anything that "precedes" it. Anything that would precede it, would have to exist - thus negating the premise that it "precedes existence".

I think you guys are both describing the same thing, but are getting caught up in semantics. Markos is calling the phenomenal world of physics and the universe that we know of "existence", and that which came before it "essence". Skorpivo is calling that which came before the phenomenal world, as well as the phenomenal world itself, "existence", and he calls consciousness and self-consciousness "essence". At least this is the way I interpreted this.

I think a key question here is what there was before the phenomenological universe. Skorpivo, you state that before it, there was only 'existence' (and Markos, you state that there was only 'essence'). But now I ask you to describe this 'existence'/'essence' to me, using the affirmative. What qualities or characteristics did it have? Was it big? Small? Light? Dark?

Much of modern physics regards the big bang as the birth point of what we call 'matter' (atomic and subatomic particles). It was a singularity. Do you agree with this?

If so, then before the Bang, matter simply did not exist. If matter did not exist, then how could we possibly describe Reality before the Bang in the affirmative? The only way we could describe it would be in the negative, as Dionysius the Areopagite did.

Quote:

We therefore maintain that the universal and transcendent Cause of all things is neither without being nor without life, nor without reason or intelligence; nor is it a body, nor has it form or shape, quality, quantity or weight; nor has it any localized, visible or tangible existence; it is not sensible or perceptible; nor is it subject to any disorder or inordination nor influenced by any earthly passion; neither is it rendered impotent through the effects of material causes and events; it needs no light; it suffers no change, corruption, division, privation or flux; none of these things can either be identified with or attributed unto it.




He continues...

Quote:

Again, ascending yet higher, we maintain that it is neither soul nor intellect; nor has it imagination, opinion reason or understanding; nor can it be expressed or conceived, since it is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is it standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has it power nor is power, nor is light; neither does it live nor is it life; neither is it essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is it subject to intelligible contact; nor is it science nor truth, nor kingship nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is it spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation- free from every limitation and beyond them all.




If this Reality/Existence completely transcends all affirmations and even all negations, then can one actually say that it "existed" or "exists"?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5441563 - 03/25/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Every one of your premises are contrary to the spiritual/metaphysical position.

Depending on however you like to define such terms, of course.


I have already amply expressed examples pertaining to the spiritual and you refuse or are unable to regress to the same point of origin but establish yourself in conditions of 'stable' existence long after origination has occured, and without any comment on the Mystery which precedes creation.

Regress to the same point of what you think is the "Origin". In regards to that matter, I hold that there is no "origin".

An excerpt from http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/branden.htm
Quote:

The man who asks, "Where did existence come from?" or "What caused it?" is the man who has never grasped that existence exists. This is the mentality of a savage or a mystic who regards existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle - and seeks to "explain" it by reference to non-existence.

Existence is all that exists, the nonexistent does not exist; there is nothing for existence to have come out of - and nothing means nothing. If you are tempted to ask, "What's outside the universe?" - recognize that you are asking, "What's outside of existence?" and that the idea of "something outside of existence" is a contradiction in terms; nothing is outside of existence, and "nothing" is not just another kind of "something" - it is nothing. Existence exists: you cannot go outside it; you cannot get under it, on top of it, or behind it. Existence exists - and only existence exists: There is nowhere else to go.





You are like Newton, explaining how things work in a macro sense but completely ignorant of how things operate on a micro or quantum level. Completely different conditions, completely different governing principles, completely different implications for the ultimate nature of material reality.

Not a fair assessment at all. Unlike what you are professing to be the truth, quantum physics has actual evidence supporting it - not mere anecdotes of vague mysticism. There is no objective, scientific or logical basis for claiming that our consciousness does anything other than what we observe it doing or anything other than what it is: The faculty of percieving that which exists, which is an emergent phenomena of our brain.


You are defining the neurologically based models of brain consciousness and fail to grok that Consciousness (AKA Spirit) is posited by the spiritual/metaphysical position as GOD.

You are defining the mysticism-based models of brain consciousness and fail to grok that consciousness is the faculty of percieving existence, and is posited by the Law of Identity.


So, if you wish to insist that there is no such eternal Ground of Being (no attributes or lack thereof being debated here), no 'infrastructure' of Ultimate Reality, then we cannot proceed with this interaction. We have a stalemate.

It's moreso that you are professing our consciousness to be such an "infrastructure". Again, this is comitting the fallacy of context-dropping; you are dropping the context of what consciousness actually is and does. Like most mystics, you take whatever remains in the unknown darkness of reality, and in the absence of factual knowledge, proceed to establish fantasies in thin-air. I see this occurring all the time in regards to Quantum Mechanics, in regards to evolutionary theory, in regards to many, many historical instances involving situations whereby folks didn't have sufficient knowledge of a phenomena - and as a result, fell to mysticism. On the bright side, we've come a long way from the age of witchdoctors and spell-chanting savages.


There is no such thing as a "mysticism of meat."

To the contrary - just as there are those who've tried to escape from the bodily and/or physical reality and construct elaborate castles of 'other-worldly' fantasies in thin-air, there are those who've tried to deny the efficacy of consciousness altogether and/or profess the non-existence of non-material entities, read: the mind.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/25/06 10:25 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5441748 - 03/25/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

May I throw into discussion, that consciousness is devinitely NOT only that, what percieves what exists !?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5441878 - 03/25/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You are free to throw anything into the discussion that you wish. However, if you only choose to toss in arbitrary one-liners, without any elaboration or logical basis on your part, then don't expect much of a response.


With that said, I'll reiterate:
Consciousness is the faculty of perception.
Consciousness exists as a specific type of existent with a specific identity. To claim that it does any thing other than facilitating perception of existence, is completely baseless, arbitrary and without merit.

To claim "consciousness is more than percieving that which exists" is equally valid as the claim "hearing is more than registering auditory events in reality", or "vision is more than the faculty of sight".



--------------------
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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5442245 - 03/25/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I especially think of the perception of imagined stuff. The perception of future i. e., may be the most profound kind of that. It is definitively something, what is percieved (by everyone) without its present existence in reality.

There is also a large subjective component of the viewer, which is added to the perceived object itself. That links to 'see what one wants to see'.
If the subjective components of perception will raise above a certain level, then we talk about personal disorder, which is objectively stated as 'illness', but is existent, nevertheless, not perceivable yet, by objective standards. So, the perception of mind (consciousness) is not only that, what really exists, in terms of evaluable objective data imprint of the outerworld reality. The subjectivity is a large part of consciousness, too, even to the part of imagination.
I think that this is not everything, what influences our consciousness in regards to our perception, but it should be sufficient as an example.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: dorkus]
    #5443236 - 03/26/06 04:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
That is exactly what I am wondering. Some seem to think of it as the subjective experience of being.

What is your take on it?




Crayfish have a subjective experience of being -- are they conscious?

I studied consciousness at the university for a few years, because I was interested in knowing what the scientists and philosophers had to say about. Unfortunately, I discovered that their perspectives are just as incomptent, and almost as useless, as, non-materialist
and un-empirical accounts of consciousness.

Describe "consciousness" (essentially by reducing it to ways of speaking and thinking that are incapable of grasping consciousness) as much as you want, find all the transcendent categories of consciousness you want, do all the metaphysics of consciousness you want and yet you'll never find, reduce, nor understand consciousness.


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Re: Consciousness - the hen or the egg? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5443560 - 03/26/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Describe "consciousness" (essentially by reducing it to ways of speaking and thinking that are incapable of grasping consciousness) as much as you want, find all the transcendent categories of consciousness you want, do all the metaphysics of consciousness you want and yet you'll never find, reduce, nor understand consciousness.





:bow:

Well said


--------------------
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Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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