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Offlineafterglow17
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency
    #533615 - 01/28/02 03:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hi, my name's Sam and I'm an addict. I'm 15 from Seattle, Washington and I recently graduated from an inpatient drug treatment center. I got there because of legal and school trouble, but when I arrived and listened to all of the other patients I realized that I had a disease and was an addict, something I had been denying for a long time. Before this my parents and closest friends had been telling me that I was not only harming myself but others as well with my chemical use and needed help. I did not beleive them. Now that I'm out I've found that living sober is much better. I've also realized how much damage I've done to my brain. However, as I sit in my chair at night and listen to techno I reflect on how incredible using mushrooms was. Although I was using them to get high, there was a huge spiritual element. I used any drug I could get my hands on, but mushrooms were different. For me, like many others, it was a spiritual experience. I would really like to use them again.....alone...in the woods. But I fear if I do that I'll end up back where I left off, snorting ecstasy alone in my bathroom close to tears. Which goes to show what chemical dependency can do. I beleive that MDMA is a great drug, capable of incuding very positive, very spiritual experiences but I abused it to the point that it was just something to get fucked up with.

I currently go to an AA meeting every night and they are helping me alot. Living without being preoccupied with drugs is great...but I'd really like to use mushrooms (and other psychadelics) for spiritual purposes again. Has anyone had any succesful experience with using psychadelics for spiritual purposes during recovery from alcoholism/chemical dependency?



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Invisibletak
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Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #533630 - 01/28/02 03:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not going to DENY you the privledge, but giving someone who has quit drugs drugs is pretty bad also. I suggest knowing yourself, and your limits. Do you think there will be an addiction later? If so can you stop it on your own? Notice i said privledge, don't abuse them. If you are going to, i think you should atleast wait a while, until you are dependant free. If you wait too long till it 'blows over' you might be  complete normal person again and find yourself getting addicted again? I dont know. Its your life. Can you so a psychedelic for what it is? I considered quitting drugs this new years, and I am for everything except pot+shrooms wich i hae no access to right now so :P but yeah. Dont let us tell you if you will get addicted. You may not know, but im sure you 'know'. Just follow yourself. On another note. I did drugs to get fucked up, and beign sober sucked. I could NOT have fun sober, i needed drugs. Now i can have alot of fun sober, and i can also enjoy a spiritual trip, and not let it effect me. So when i try to have fun, i do that..have fun instead of crave drugs. Just some opinions, and stuff. I hope it works out :smile: just know yourself ;]


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
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Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #533985 - 01/28/02 02:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> when I arrived and listened to all of the other patients I realized that I had a disease and was an addict

There's simply not enough evidence to support the view that "addictions" are diseases. Don't listen to the American Disease Model: it's built on many assumptions.

Here's another post of mine about the problematics of the American Disease Model
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.third-plateau.org/cgi/infoboard/viewer.cgi/thedxminformationforum/3C46156B00000C0C.html
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Addiction is cognized as an internal biological brain disease. This, as you indicated, alleviates the "addict" of any responsibilty for their actions ("I couldn't help myself, I'm an addict"). Paradoxically, groups like AA and NA are guilt-oriented: drinking is wrong; against god. I'm at a loss as to how members of AA are supposed to feel guilt about their actions which are seen as wholly other entities.
I think that guilt is felt by the members of addict support groups because of peer pressure. Drinking or drug use becomes a moral problem, instead of a medical one. The medical view of addiction would not allow for guilt, because there is no responsibility on the part of the user. The guilt comes about because (drug/alcohol) use is a failure to comply with one's socially constructed moral responsibility. Groups members induce guilt by expressing their disappointment in the using group member ("How could you drink again?").
The paradox here, when people on this message board of a supposedly liberated community who see through "the bullshit" is that the are only reifying the dominant cultural views on drug/alcohol use. That is, once the drug users (of this community, NFsXe in this instance) find that they are using drugs/alcohol in an excessive manner they turn to professional explanations for their behaviour, so that they may gain insight about themselves in order to help themselves. However, by seeking sympathy for their plight they transform a medical problem into a moral problem, which are inherently contradictory to each other.
Not only are the moral and medical models of drug/alcohol "addiction" contradictory to each other (the former placing total responsibility on the addict, the latter displacing all responsibility onto the disease), but they construct a contradictory role for the "(recovering) addict". The addict becomes the subject of medical study and treatment but is placed into a moral role of both student and teacher.
As a student, the addict learns how to "control" his/her addiction (which is medically impossible, according to the dominant model). As a teacher, the addict must fulfil his/her moral responsibility to teach others of the perils of addiction, hence the psychobabble.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I've also realized how much damage I've done to my brain.

Where's your evidence? What chemicals were you using? Are you sure you're not just jumping to conclusions?

> Which goes to show what chemical dependency can do.

Or how depression can be worsened by drug use. Are you sure you were feeling well before you started using drugs?

> Has anyone had any succesful experience with using psychadelics for spiritual purposes during recovery from alcoholism/chemical dependency?

Yes. I've been at points in my life where I drank upto, and more than 30 ounces of vodka per day. I drank heavily (60+ drinks a week) for about a year and a half. Now I rarely drink, and use psychedelics only when I actually have time. And my psychedelic of choice, is dextromethorphan, BTW.


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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #534001 - 01/28/02 03:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Just stay away from drugs, not the psychedelics. After doing Acid/Mushrooms, I vowed never to touch E, coke, speed etc. again.
I don't see how using psychedelics once in awhile will cause someone to relapse into their old addicted ways again. If anything, it would wake them up as to what they were doing to themselves with all the bad soul-destroying chemicals. I'm not even sure a 15 year old should be taking psychedelics even, but that's your choice and no one here can stop you- let alone E. Don't be a stupid drugged up kid- respect the sacred mushroom, or after a nine gram insanity trip you will.


--------------------


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Registered: 03/15/01
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Loc: MA
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #534002 - 01/28/02 03:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Many people believe the use of psychedelics can help people with their addictions. Ibogaine (a highly modified tryptamine) has been used recently in studies to treat substance abuse. And Timothy Leary in his early days at Harvard used psilocybin to treat alcoholism. The foundation of these claims is that a psychedelic experience can make you realize where your true priorities lie and the futility of using drugs to fill a void in your life. I would say you should be fine to use mushrooms, just have a good time and don't do it in excess.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 2 months, 28 days
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #534034 - 01/28/02 03:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

hmmm, i am pretty sure dr tim tested sandoz psilocybin pills on prisoners & measured recidivism rates compared to the general prison population...
the lsd & alcoholism study was done up in saskatchewan by drs abram hoffer & humphrey osmund (the same team who turned aldous huxley on to mescaline in the mid-50s...)
rock vibist buzzy linhart (in an article in esquire magazine) told how he used a stash of acid in his freezer to help him kick heroin --- whenever he felt the need to shoot up some junk, he's go to the freezer & take out some more acid... must have made for some interesting withdrawal symptoms... (buzzy declined to join friends crosby, stills, & nash in this band they were getting together, because he had gotten clean of H & C, and didn't want to have to hang out with friends who were still using...)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlineafterglow17
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Registered: 12/18/01
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Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: Kid]
    #534166 - 01/28/02 06:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Everyone : Thanks. I'll remember what you guys said and eventually come to a conclusion.

Kid :

Addiction is a biological disease. My brain chemistry is different from that of a normal person. Why else would alcoholism/addiction be hereditary?

AA/NA is not guilt oriented. It says nowhere that drinking is against God. I am an athiest, my higher power is other people. My higher power (other people) doesn't want me to end up where I was before treatment. Most of us feel guilty because we stole from and lied to friends and family, drove drunk, and generally acted very selfish.

An addict isnt taught to control their addiction. An addict is told to turn their life and will over to God, as they understand him/her/it. You've gathered misinformation from many sources.

Your questions :

1. My short term memory is shot. MDMA has been shown to screw with a heavy users serotonin.

2. Addiction is a primary disease. It needs to be treated before depression. I don't think I was depressed before I started using drugs. It was one of the best times of my life.



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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #534217 - 01/28/02 07:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> Addiction is a biological disease. My brain chemistry is different from that of a normal person. Why else would alcoholism/addiction be hereditary?

Addiction, in particular alcoholism is not entirely hereditary. DSM-IV-TR states that "40% to 60% of the variance of risk is explained by genetic influences" p.221. That leaves between 60% to 40% of environmental factors to explain your problem. 60%, is more than half the explanatory factor, by the way. DSM-IV-TR further states that "genetic factors explain only a part of the risk for Alcohol Dependence, with a significant part of the risk coming from environmental or interpersonal factors that may include cultural attitudes toward drinking and drunkenness, the availability of alchol (including price), expectations of the effects of alcohol on mood and behaviour, acquired personal experiences with alcohol, and stress." p.222

"However, most genetic studies indicate that although there may be some genetic ingeritance involved in the development of alcoholism, the majority of causative factors are environmental. For example, in an adoption study, Cloninger et al. found that if infants with high genetic risk for alcoholism were adopted by middle-class families, the number who actually became alcoholics in adulthood was no greater than chance. In contrast, they found that infants with high genetic risk for alcoholism adopted by poor families were more likely to become alcoholics in adulthood." _Culture & Mental Illness_, Richard J. Castillo,1997, p. 159

Cloninger et al. (1981). Inheritance of alcohol abuse: Cross fostering analysis of adopted men. Archives of General Psychiatry, 38, 861 - 868.

"The genetic basis of alcoholism is also not supported by cross-cultural epidemiological studies of alcoholism. Lifetime prevalence rates of alcoholism vary dramatically from one culture to another even when the same diagnostic criteria are used. For example, in a study of ten different regions of the world, the prevalence rates ranged from a high of 23 percent in a Native American population and 22 percent in Korea to a low of 3.5 percent in Taipei, Taiwan, and 0.45 percent in Shanghai, China...
...It should be noted that the American Disease Model of addiction is not widely accepted outside the United States; that is why it is commonly referred to as the American Disease Model. This peculiar way of thinking about addiction is most likely a product of Anglo American culture, including social and economic practices and institutions. Specifically, the treatment of addictive "diseases" has become a major industry in the United States that is dependent on the acceptance of the disease-centered paradigm for its profits. In the fee-for-service medical industry in the United States, there is profit to be made from insurance companies if addictions are classified as biological diseases." Culture & Mental Illness, p. 160

"Classifying addictions as biological diseases also relieves the addicts, their families, and the society in general from searching for any environmental factors that might be responsible for addictions, or doing anything to change these factors." Culture & Mental Illness, p. 161

> AA/NA is not guilt oriented.

Then your experience with AA and NA has been very different from the ones of people I've known who've been involved in those meetings.

> You've gathered misinformation from many sources.

I consider the first hand accounts from people I know to be reliable.


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OfflineTannis
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Registered: 12/13/01
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Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #534898 - 01/29/02 01:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey stick with what you know... It sounds like you know that you have a disease... if that's the case then ALL drugs are bad for you and could lead to relapse and all the negative consequences ( legal / school / family ) issues...

Not all people get addicted, just like not all people are diabetic and so don't need to monitor their sugar intake. If you are an alcoholic and you have the TIQ thing going on in your brain... any amount of ANY drug could cause a total relapse.

I've been there...done that... AA the whole thing... I don't have the disease but I went through a really bad period of abuse/dependency where I was out of control and had to stop. A lot of people reading this probably would disagree and say that I wasn't out of control because if we compared how much we used I probably used less than my critics. But you know what I'm talking about... I was completely out of control...

I use to get high... just for the same reason I climb a forty five foot rock and jump into the river... I like the way it feels...

If you have a disease... using anything can eventually take over your entire life. The diabetic can't say, "This sugar won't hurt me..." A person who truely has the disease of addiction CAN'T DO DRUGS!!!!!!!!!!

.....Tannis


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Offlineafterglow17
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Registered: 12/18/01
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Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: Tannis]
    #535222 - 01/29/02 08:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

thanks tannis, i needed that.


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Offlineafterglow17
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Registered: 12/18/01
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Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: Tannis]
    #535223 - 01/29/02 08:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

thanks tannis, i needed that.


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OfflineTannis
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Registered: 12/13/01
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Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Psychadelics, Spirituality and Chemical Dependency [Re: afterglow17]
    #549804 - 02/13/02 10:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yo Sam,

How you been? Best wishes........
.... Tannis


Edited by Tannis (02/13/02 10:15 AM)


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Amazon Shop for: Aldous Huxley, San Pedro

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