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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality [Re: lateralus]
    #1678902 -

As I see it freak outs are NOT the norm they are the exception to the rule,
What rule? Normal or not a freak-out is not a sign of coherency and order, now IS IT?

and thats why I would guess that any or all of these peoples bad, 'chaotic-brain-misfiring-malfunctioning' experinces can be attributed to other factors.
I have never seen anyone "freak out" in a non-life-threatening situation UNLESS they were tripping, that was the common factor in EVERY case.

Not the psychadelics themselves. I don't think that this is an unreasonable idea either.
It is quite unreasonable. Take a substance - have a bad reaction. Don't take the substance - no bad reaction. This is basic cause and effect.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1678930 -

Quote:
Take a substance - have a bad reaction. Don't take the substance - no bad reaction. This is basic cause and effect.


That's needlessly simplified. Take a psychedelic in a bad set & setting - high probability of bad reaction. Take a psychedelic in a good set & setting - low probability of bad reaction. Don't take the psychedelic - even lower probability of bad reaction.

You're right of course in saying that psychedelics disrupt brain function. That's the whole point. And it's a miracle that there are drugs that can do this without being more toxic than they are.

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Re: My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1679004 -

Freakouts are not a sign of coherency or order. I agree.

I have seen people freak out in a non-life-threatening situation plenty of times. People have nervous breakdowns, depression, similar things all the time. I saw someone break out crying and start cussing and screaming at a bank because they wouldnt cash her check one time:) People get delusional all the time, angry all the time, violent, etc.. In every one of these situations these people freak out on their own. I believe its the same with psychadelics. They may be a contributing factor, but by no means the causal factor.

If you kill someone while youre drunk because of impaired judgement you cant blame the alcohol. If you freak out on psychadelics you cant blame the drug. Well, you *could*, but youd be wrong. You would be the causal factor in both cases, not the substance.

Guns dont kill people: People do.
The same can be said of psychadelics

Now that its clear what they don't cause, lets look at what they do cause. People report enhanced clarity on a regular basis, people report enhanced vision and edge detection(scientifically proven), people report feelings of happiness, ecstacy, remorse, sorrow, anger(more rarely), people report pseudo-religious type spiritual awakenings, people report a positive change in perception(moreso than report in the negative), people report morphing textures, profound revelations, dissolving egos,boundary dissolution, heightened perceptions of thoughts and feelings of people around them. Lots of very good stuff here all experienced by the majority of people who use these substances.

I just don't like the picture you paint, I sense a tone of psychadelic bitterness in someone who will go around saying"psychadelics cause freakouts," blah, blah. Thats bs. Its untrue and completely unfounded scientifically.

This is really all I have to say about this.

Edited by lateralus (07/02/03 02:52 AM)

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Re: My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality [Re: lateralus]
    #1679095 -

lateralus said:
Well, I think that theory is very western in its approach. And I dont believe thats how the brain works either. If that were the case, you could cut out that part of the brain(or transmitter or whatever) that was responsible for transmitting a horizontal line or or thing, and the person would no longer be able to 'detect' horizontal lines. I think the brain doesn't work that way.


Well...what i have to say comes from what i learned in the class i took on the human brain in college last semester. The brain has neurons that fire for vertical lines, and nearby ones for horizontal lines etc. Different neurons fire depeding on the specific angle. Also...formation of these neurons happen early in infancy. If a young kitten is forced to spend all its infancy in an environment consisting of only vertical lines, neuronal connections responding to horizontal lines wont be made in the brain. The result will be that the kitten (and cat when its older) will never be able to see horizontal lines. So while you cant cut out the part of the brain that sees horizontal lines (there are way too many) you can stop those connections from forming in teh first place by limiting exposure to them, and the kittens wont see horizontal lines. You talk about how information is stored nonlocally. But there is a BIG difference between storing information and neurons firing after recieving input from the world around them.


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1679121 -

To be quite honest I wasn't sure exactly how that whole nonlocality thing related to anything except memory(as far as testing went) I understand that it is clear that you can destroy someones motor functions for example, but I was unsure of horizontal/vertical edge detection. I shouldve been more clear/honest in my post. Anyway, I dont know much about neuroscience/neurobiology/neurochemistry and I stand corrected.

But I wonder if this is true and if psychadelics cause neurons to fire chaotically, why then does or vertical and horizontal edge detection become increased? By 'western' i meant reductionist:/ I think theres too much we dont know about the brain and consciousness to explain it all so simply.

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Re: My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1704546 -

Quote:
Swami said:
I see psychadelics as as primarily effecting ones consciousness, not ones brain.
Uh huh. Funny though how until the brain's serotonin receptors are messed with, nothing happens



Yup. LOL. Obviously, psychopharmacology will just assume that effects on consciousness are the result of changes in the chemistry of the brain. Seems reasonable to me.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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