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Psychedelic Space & Spirituality
    #1478401 -

Much discussion on this board equates the two, but I just don't see it. To me spirituality is the ability to see things clearly (insight) and to live a relatively pain-free life (happiness and wisdom).

There are a lot of shroomers here who seem fairly unhappy with their lives.

There are a lot of shroomers here who seem fairly confused about the direction of their lives.

There are a lot of shroomers here with diametrically opposed moral stances, views on the origin of life, aliens, etc. (no underlying truth has been revealed).

Perhaps these shroomers are just too inexperienced? Mckenna himself admitted that all his journeys did nothing to lessen the sufferings in his personal life.

So other than the awe experienced during a deep journey, where is the evidence for any type of spiritual growth?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1478736 -

I have always viewed a deep journey or profound 'revelation' on mushrooms to be something that is only experienced in the psychedelic space, and will only be functional if brought back and applied to sober reality.
I experience the wonder, I see the beauty, then I come 'home' and apply what I have experienced to my real world.
I think spirituality is the most subjective thing to be discussed. This is one reason why I do not like organized religion, because it attempts to use a standard of beliefs and practices on a wide range of people in an area of life where one's is never ever the same as another's. But that's is straying a little. Evidence could be seen by an individual who, in sober reality, views the world around him as a product of what he experienced in psychedelic space. Spirit to me is the essence of everything conscious, and could deal with encounters and situations slightly differently having seen 'the underlying threads of life, love, death, hate, and spirit' while tripping balls.

I'm not unhappy, and I am not too confused, but I'm still young and pre-career/rest-of-my-life-phase, so there is uncertainty.
I also think no underlying truth has been revealed because this feels like it applies to the spiritual realm. My spirit is my underlying consciousness, and is my most personal aspect, as is everyone elses. Therefore until something is revealed to us as a whole, we will have subjective 'underlying realities', which almost seems paradoxical.

I think you'll find everyone's definition of spirituality is different. Some might think that they could be 'in tune' with their spirituality, yet still be angry, confused, or unhappy. They just 'see' their 'essence' more clearly.

These are just some thoughts. This will be an interesting discussion because it is the most subjective topic, IMO.


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1479001 -

Spiritual growth to me, comes from hard challenges and life lessons.
My definition of spirituality would be simply the awareness of spirit and not just body.

I get the most spiritual growth from bad situations, if I choose to use them as a learning tool.


--------------------

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1479222 -


"I find myself agreeing with the eminent Cambridge philosopher, Dr. C.D. Broad, 'that we should do well to consider the suggestion that the function of the brain and the nervous system and sense organs is in the main eliminative and not productive.' The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful. According to such a theory, each one of us is potentially Mind at Large. But in so far as we are animals, our business is at all costs to survive. To make biological survival possible, Mind at Large has to be funneled through the reducing valve of the brain and nervous system. What comes out at the other end is a measly trickle of the kind of consciousness which will help us to stay alive on the surface of this particular planet. To formulate and express the contents of this reduced awareness, man has invented and endlessly elaborated those
symbol-systems and implicit philosophies which we call language. Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born. That which, in the language of religion, is called 'this world' is the universe of reduced awareness, expressed, and, as it were, petrified by language. The various 'other worlds' with which human beings erratically make contact are so many elements in the totality of the awareness belonging to Mind at Large.... Temporary by-passes may be acquired either spontaneously, or as the result of deliberate 'spiritual exercises,'... or by means of drugs." - Aldous Huxley

"What Huxley did not mention was that drugs, specifically the plant hallucinogens, can reliably and repeatedly open the floodgates of the reducing valve of consciousness and expose the individual to the full force of the howling Tao. The way in which we internalize the impact of this experience of the Unspeakable, whether encountered through psychedelics or other means, is to generalize and extrapolate our world view through acts of imagination. These acts of imagination represent our adaptive response to information concerning the outside world that is conveyed to us by our senses. In our species, culture-specific, situation-specific syntactic software in the form of language can compete with and sometimes replace the instinctual world of hard-wired animal behavior. This means that we can learn and communicate experience and thus put maladaptive behaviors behind us. We can collectively recognize the virtues of peace over war, or of cooperation over struggle. We can change." - Terence McKenna

So one way of looking at it is that we are all unique individuals, unique reducing valves, and unique in response to the Psychedelic Space. What may seem negative in the experience may ultimately be beneficial in the long run, just unrecognized in the mean time, it at least affords us an opportunity we would not otherwise have.

Suffering is part of the equation, as is individuality, I have found no way personally to eliminate it. Maybe it is supposed to be a teacher, maybe that is the meaning of it, but it is a teacher I do not seek out, it always arrives unannounced.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Shroomism]
    #1479223 -

I think the very nature of the psychedelic experience prevents us from reaching a common spiritual consensus.  It is a smorgasborg of all possible viewpoints and ideas.  Look in the Political Forum, no one there agrees on anything, yet they still talk to each other. 

This forum itself is evidence of psychedelic spiritual growth.  Where else on the internet, or in the world for that matter, can you find people talking all things spiritual?  We are all here for some reason related to psychedelic mushrooms.  We are searching for answers here. 

Answer this for me Swami: do you feel your life is better or worse for having taken mushrooms?


Better or worse?
Better
Worse



:grin: 


Votes accepted from the dawn of the universe until the end of time

View the results of this poll



--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: pattern]
    #1479637 -

That is a false dilemma. Anyway...

Since I began my spiritual voyage (drugs were only a part of it), my life has been much worse... but I've felt much better. Psychedelics force my mind through an obstacle course. I've been able to make it through this course every time, thus, my mind has been strengthened. Before, a paper cut might have ruined my day (okay... I'm exaggerating). Now, after a few brushes with the law on a headful acid (whilst forcing oneself to act "normal" and sober), I no longer sweat the small stuff (though I still don't like paper cuts). I think studying philosophy was a big help as well. It helped me ignore the sparkly visuals and focus on my thought matrix.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Blastrid]
    #1479655 -

Spirituality is something that I've only experienced on psychadelics or dissassociatives in combination with deep meditation. For me, there is a feeling of divinity that I guess you could also call ego loss. It's an unmistakeable feeling for me that I've only felt twice in my life. I feel like maybe it has made me more open minded but I can't think of specific instances where it has shone through.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

Edited by bert (04/21/03 05:06 PM)

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Sclorch]
    #1479657 -

Quote:

  That is a false dilemma.



True, but it forces a position to be taken, or an abstain from voting.

I only slightly think my life has been better.  In some ways it is worse.  Overall it's better.  To me that is evidence towards a theory.  :grin: 


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: pattern]
    #1479809 -

Answer this for me Swami: do you feel your life is better or worse for having taken mushrooms?
I find no difference and see no difference in others; just like religion. Why do you think the '60's drug-enhanced utopian vision faded? Because there was substance or because it was just a psychedelic dream?

This forum itself is evidence of psychedelic spiritual growth.
I also hang out at fitness / bodybuilding forums where no mushrooms (but lots of steroids) are taken. How is their communication less spiritual than here? Because they talk of creatine instead of Greys and triceps instead of Atlantis?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1479871 -

Quote:

Answer this for me Swami: do you feel your life is better or worse for having taken mushrooms?
I find no difference and see no difference in others; just like religion. Why do you think the '60's drug-enhanced utopian vision faded? Because there was substance or because it was just a psychedelic dream?



Fair enough.  Mushrooms were around before the sixties, and in many ways life has improved since then, which is partially due to psychedelics.  Did you buy into their utopian vision?  I don't, but I still think it is reasonable to believe that we are better off with psychedelics than without.

Quote:

This forum itself is evidence of psychedelic spiritual growth.
I also hang out at fitness / bodybuilding forums where no mushrooms (but lots of steroids) are taken. How is their communication less spiritual than here? Because they talk of creatine instead of Greys and triceps instead of Atlantis?




Steroids do not affect the mind in the same way that mushrooms do.  I don't think that their communication is more or equally spiritual as in here.  People go to a weightlifting room for a purpose befitting its name.  On the other hand, I bet that if there was a weightlifting room where everyone ate mushrooms, there would be alot more spiritual talk, and less weightlifting.  Want to wager money on that bet?  :smirk:   


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

Edited by pattern (04/21/03 06:13 PM)

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: pattern]
    #1479918 -

This forum itself is evidence of psychedelic spiritual growth.
Discussion does not equal growth. Does discussing morals make one a more moral person? Are church-goers less likely to commit crime? Statistics show no correlation.

I don't think that their communication is more or equally spiritual as in here.
I find fitness to be more spiritual (as in life-enhancing) than crop circles, Roswell, telekinesis, et al...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1479951 -

I find fitness to be more spiritual (as in life-enhancing) than crop circles, Roswell, telekinesis, et al..."

A very good point Swami, which reminds me(seriously) that i have to get up of my lazy unspiritualized arse tommorrow and pick up some Creatine(more for the Alpha lipoic acid anti oxidant factor than any muscle building propensities) :smile: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1479963 -

The really important part of being fit & strong, is that you can kick someone's ass if they disagree with your view of spirituality. :grin: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1480080 -

Quote:

Discussion does not equal growth.



I agree with the sentence, but disagree with your implication. Without discussion there is less communication of ideas from one person to another. How are you going to learn? I've learnt many things from this forum, things that are true and things that are false, but both are relevant. Maybe you expect to find something perfect, but discussion is one ingredient of growth.

Quote:

Does discussing morals make one a more moral person? Are church-goers less likely to commit crime? Statistics show no correlation.



On a whole discussing morals and attending church can make people more moral. I say this because as humans educate themselves in these areas, they learn how to integrate it into their lives better, and societies improve. What I mean is, overall, religion and psychedelics are more a positive influence than a negative influence. They are tools, that we should use in a beneficial way, but any tool can be misused.

Quote:

I find fitness to be more spiritual (as in life-enhancing) than crop circles, Roswell, telekinesis, et al...



I do too. I enjoy reading Skeptic magazine. Debunking psuedo-science is funny, but it has value, even though its not true. Can we believe only the truth, when we are aware of what is false?


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: pattern]
    #1480493 -

pattern: Can we believe only the truth, when we are aware of what is false?


I don't believe truth... or lies... or anything. I don't believe, I just think.
What do you think of that?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1480538 -

i dont really know if it changed my life at all. for a time i thought it had, and maybe it has now. but i cant really tell you where i am now, so i couldnt really tell you if it really changed me. i seem to constantly change, with or without drugs. thus has been the story from my earliest memories.

The most intreguing thing i came across while on shrooms was a sense that i could talk to animals. i dont know why, but i felt like i could understand them. and when your on shrooms its makes perfect sense ( like when your on DXM and you think everything is so divine and perfect...until you fall off the deep end... dont do it kids... no one... its bad stuff) and that to me is what made me feel in contact with them. I dont know how i could, in my mind think, and without talking have a cat come to me, and mimick my thought patterns in movements. As i "talked" to it, it would make a sound and brush up against me. each time i "talked" it did it again. Another example is my friends old dog, she was deaf, and when i said "come here" and felt , thats right, felt, her to come to me, she did. i dont know maybe it was just drug induced nonsense, but when i was on shrooms it seemed to have ground to it. maybe we all have that ability, maybe shrooms allow us to feel that part of our primative self and connect with the rest of the animals i dont know. Maybe Saint Francis could do it naturally without shrooms... or maybe he did take shrooms! but im not TOO serious about it, i can readily accept the fact that it could not happen.

i wonder if for humans it brings us back to how we were as animals, in a sublime cyclical thought. maybe thats why dogs and cats and the like arent so advanced. they have a simple cycle which they cant break from, to learn new activities, to overwrite their memory to learn new tasks. but to those who say it breaks cycles, i dont know how much shrooms have broken my cycles, the last time i took them it just sped it up and i felt more crazy, and i couldnt go to sleep. although the time before that it did feel like pain thinner to my head.

Maybe as far as spirituality is concerned, Mushrooms are just a placebo for spiritual experience. Or at least lower peoples inhibitions and aprehensions about the "outer world" or whatever. Maybe since its so taboo for an activity, maybe people can confide in calling it a mystical experience. S

seeing and feeling the ocean for me can be just as much a spiritual experience as anything. feeling the waves and the energy of the water. and being imaginative as i am, my day dreams take me wherever i want to go.

and i would say i agree with you Swami that i find unhappiness within my life, that i dont know where it is going, that maybe i have had too little experience, but i also might say ive had a little too much. My deepest and longest journeys were off drugs.

i keep seeing the more i know, the more i dont know.

to me Mushrooms and drugs are just what you make them out to be, and the real work, comes from inside your own head. i dont think mushrooms are going to Really save anyone from anything.

Learning those underlying truths... well maybe well know when we get there.


--------------------
What?

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Sclorch]
    #1480654 -

Quote:

I don't believe truth... or lies... or anything. I don't believe, I just think. What do you think of that?



I think I don't believe you! How else would you be replying to my message, you must believe I sent you one earlier, and I'll wager you aren't pressing keys randomly. What do you think about that? you nihilist!


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Sclorch]
    #1480663 -

pattern: Can we believe only the truth, when we are aware of what is false?

I don't believe truth... or lies... or anything. I don't believe, I just think.
What do you think of that?


?Man has a single basic choice: to think or not, and that is the gauge of his virtue. Moral perfection is an unbreached rationality ? not the degree of your intelligence, but the full and relentless use of your mind, not the extent of your knowledge, but the acceptance of reason as an absolute." - Ayn Rand


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1480692 -

Yes we are thinking all the time, but not about everything at once. In the interim we take thoughts and turn them into beliefs, facts we think are true, and those are our memory. Later when we have time we think again about those beliefs. The beliefs that seem to be true the most, we tend to think about those the most.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: pattern]
    #1481018 -

it's pretty simple for me. Before psycedelics i liked to drink alot and get puke drunk everynight, then search for easy girls. After psychedelics i quite drinking, started meditaing and studying philosophy. Now one situation may not be better or worse than the other, but you tell me what you think is a more desirable scenario. Personally, i belive the benifts of psycedelics on my life are inmeasurable.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: thestringphish]
    #1481046 -

Psychedelics can only improve your life and spirituality if you make a consciouss desision to apply the leasons learned from you trips to your daily life. The Psychedelics can olny show you the way, but from there it's up to you. Much like the old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". It's just sad that many people don't make that commitment to better themselves.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1481097 -

I feel that "spiritual growth" is obtained through action as well as thought.... You can shroom and think and realize and contemplate and make as many connections as you want, but unless you get out of bed and actually DO SOMETHING, nothing will change externally, which can lead to internal trauma.

When I first got into mushrooms I realized tons of connections between the various recordings my brain has made; fractalesque connections that weren't previously clear. I was spending so much time thinking and organizing my brain in the following few years that I basically forgot I had a body that I needed to ensure the security of for at least a few decades more so that I could continue the contemplation of this existence until my human experience is over. My thought-patterns had gotten so upscaled (cosmic/evolutionary/societal-type contemplaction; stuff thats really out of my control) that I had lost focus of myself and my specific present and future situations.

It certainly felt "spiritual," but looking back I see what you're talking about Swami :smile: The psychedelic experience may be a way of helping you open various "spiritual doors" in your life, but you still have to physically get up and walk through them.

Edit (Addition): Here's a quote from Waking Life (I HIGH-ly recommend it):
"The trick is to combine your waking, rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams"
- Guy Forsythe

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Infinite Possibilities
(end edit)


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (04/22/03 01:25 AM)

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Shroomism]
    #1481148 -

Quote:

Spiritual growth to me, comes from hard challenges and life lessons.
My definition of spirituality would be simply the awareness of spirit and not just body.

I get the most spiritual growth from bad situations, if I choose to use them as a learning tool.




i feel the same way.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1483218 -


Ego loss/becoming one with the universe is great, but it can't help you too much while sober and functioning whithin society imo. You still have to trudge thru the shit others make you trudge thru.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: thestringphish]
    #1483394 -

Psychedelics can only improve your life and spirituality if you make a consciouss desision to apply the leasons learned from you trips to your daily life.

This statement could apply to ANY life experience. So once again, how are psychedelics more spiritual?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: thestringphish]
    #1483470 -

You guys are looking deeper that you need to to answer this question. All possiblity of godhead touching, satori, interdimensional purple bhudda cats whispering the secret of life in your ear, etc, aside, psychedelic drugs are definetely worth doing cause they're, well, a kick ass time.
As to the original question, if tripping is spiritual, I agree that there doesn't seem to be a direct link between tripping and becoming more spiritual, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the purple bhudda cat isn't real. Did seeing america make columbus native? does going to church make you spiritual? I think that shrooms probably can give a rational man living in an existential era experiential knowledge of g-d. or whatever you want to call the purple cat. But most people seem to ignore the cat, both in church and in trips.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Malachi]
    #1484680 -

Your asking the wrong question, Psychedelics are no more or less spiritual than anything in life. When i'm tripping, i see god/spirit/"purple cat/ or whatever you want to call it, i see divinity in everything, nothing is more or less spiritual than anything else because everything is equally full of divinity. The reason many consider psychedelics in particular to be spiritual is because they have a tendency to smack you upside the head and force you to see this divinity. Now you can suggest all day long that this may just be some kind of psycosomatic effect, that your telling yourself this should happen, so it does, but what about first time trippers who have no idea about this aspect? I know i didn't, i thought i was going to party my first trip. well, needless to say, i was very wrong, my first trip was on acid, and it sure as hell smacked me upside the head and forced me to see the divine, in a not entireley pleasent maner. Other things, a can of coke, a turkey sandwich, headonistic drugs, just don't do this, so it's easy for me to see why people would consider psycedelics divine. Even when i go to church, i expect a spiritual experience, do i get one? sometimes, but never in the same league as when taking psycedelics. I just can't belive that throughout history this happens over and over again by accident, the mind playing tricks on you or something, it just does'nt add up.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1484746 -

They're not inherently - they're a tool which can be used to that end.
They do tend to incline people towards looking outside their own worldview - or at least try - as the acknowledgment that perceptions are not a set and steadfast thing is something that's extremely common with psychedelics. But still, a tool.


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: thestringphish]
    #1484920 -

Psychedelics can only improve your life...

Some people have grave psychological disturbances from these substances and actually lose quality of life.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Psychedelic Space & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1484961 -

this is very true.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome

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