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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Sports & Spirituality
    #1780406 - 08/05/03 03:50 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The reason that will keep this thread here however, is that QiGong itself, although designed for the healing of the body, is spiritual in nature. How could a natural method of healing which involves will power, strength, and dedication not be spiritual.

Why is it that ONLY Eastern disciplines such as yoga and martial arts are considered "spiritual" whereas Western sports such as surfing, tennis and golf are merely recreational? I draw NO such distinction as all require physical, emotional and mental discipline as well as a meditative mind state to excel. Is it merely the seeming esoteric nature of the East (to a Western Mind) or is there really something deeper going on?

Anecdotes are worthless except as entertainment, but seem to be well-received here as "proof" of something. I once saw a highly (physically) advanced black belt martial artist start a fight with a competitive power-lifter over the use of a piece of gym equipment. Well folks, you have to respect the power and focus it takes to dead lift 700 pounds. To get to the punchline, the power lifter with little fighting skills, decimated the martial artist through sheer strength. The black belt's blows had little effect on the extreme muscle density of the power lifter and once the PL got his hands on the MA it was all over and not a pretty sight.

What is my point? All roads lead to Rome my friends...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780458 - 08/05/03 04:19 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think one could perceive an art like qigong as more spiritual than western sports because qigong has a definite spirtitual element attached to it. I see Qigong as a physical form to aid my spirtituality, obviously any sport can serve this purpose. Qigong has an integral spiritual element which can help somebody discover their own spirituality whereas with western sports it depends more on the level of spirtuality you bring to it, to what level of spiritual experience you will gain from it. Or perhaps qigong simply has a more spiritual structure. Spirtitual smiritual - I dont really like that word anymore!

Peace


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Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780467 - 08/05/03 04:23 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've known a few surfers who consider it a spiritual thing.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1780476 - 08/05/03 04:26 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Definitely, I did actually consider mentioning surfing but there does not seem to be an integral element of surfing which I would describe as spiritual. How many of the surfers who talk of surfings spiritual nature already have some understanding of spirtituality from another angle?


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Always Smi2le


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Offlinecdchriscd
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: GazzBut]
    #1780584 - 08/05/03 05:41 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Golf is not spiritual. I fucking hate golf, every time I see a golf course it make me sick to my stomach. If everyone went out and killed a golfer, like in that movie Breaking Down, the world would be a better place.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: cdchriscd]
    #1780607 - 08/05/03 06:11 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Lol! well thats one idea for making the world a better place!


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Always Smi2le


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Offlinejono
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780665 - 08/05/03 07:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Im not sure about all western sports, but body building and weight lifting is definitely the opposite of spiritual!! (if such a thing is possible)


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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: jono]
    #1780676 - 08/05/03 07:08 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't see how it is the opposite of spiritual in at least a couple aspects of it.  Firstly I'd imagine you have to be pretty dedicated to bodybuilding and body sculpting. It can't be easy, hell I can barely manage not going from overweight to really really overweight :wink:  I can't imagine the discipline it takes to do that so intensely for years, all the while educating yourself about bodybuilding, studying it, studying what to do and what not to do, all the numerous techniques, etc.  Also, you have to be in a mindset that is different from most other people.  You have to have different values and goals from other people, and that is not an easy thing for some.

Maybe it's not necessarily what they have in common, but the deviation from the normal that makes them seem similar.  (This coming from a lazy overweight pothead with an aversion to bodybuilding :wink:)


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/05/03 07:10 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: neutralizer]
    #1780724 - 08/05/03 08:04 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Spirtuality as a process has more facets than simply being dedicated and having a diffent mindset than others. Successful serial killers also need to have discipline and a different mindset to others but does that make serial killing a spiritual practice?  :smile: 


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Always Smi2le


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780894 - 08/05/03 09:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

get really good at something, anything.
ya reckon?


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: mr crisper]
    #1781053 - 08/05/03 11:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, of course spirituality has different facets than just being dedicated to something and having a "normal" mindset. As I said, though, maybe the similarity between the two isn't that they have any specific things in common, but that they are both a deviation from "normal" attitudes and everyday stuff that we all do.

As far as serial killings go, I can see how maybe in their actions they see some sort of spritual purpose or meaning (most people would call it psychosis). So, yes, I think that you can apply a "religious fervor" or at least a "religious feeling" to just about anything. Sports happen to go well with religion, or at least Christianity. Praying before games/competitions, for one example. I also remember seeing some christian bible passage painted on the wall of my school gym in big letters, I think it was Phillipians 3:14
Quote:

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.



I always thought of it as them trying to incorporate their religion into their daily lives, and never thought much about it. Looking back, though, I wonder how they got away with painting the book name, chapter and verse on a public school gymnasium, but hey, this is small town texas we're talking about.


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/05/03 11:16 AM)


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: jono]
    #1781278 - 08/05/03 12:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Im not sure about all western sports, but body building and weight lifting is definitely the opposite of spiritual!! (if such a thing is possible)

--------------------------------


You think so?

How often do you excersise? If you go to the gym, do you do more than simply go through the motions?


I enjoy finding limits. As far as my body and excersise is concerned, I have found my natural limit. My frame is that of a Mesomorph with Ectomorph characteristics. For illustration, I don't look like a pro bodybuilder. The reason I was able to reach my limit was thanks to spirit.


There is a term in the bodybuilding world... It is called the "ZONE". Getting into the ZONE is a mental preparation one makes before an extreme physical episode. It takes focus. You realize that you have entered the ZONE when you feel your body become charged... You begin to "BUZZ".... Your Adrenal glands give you a nice shot of "chemicals"... Trust me.. a sudden adrenaline rush works miracles!


I'll give a real life example.


A few years ago, I weighed 152 lbs. I was in the gym with my usual workout friend. I was getting prepared [after a thourough warm up] to bench press a maximum [ I checked out maximums once in a while to see peak strength ]. I found my ZONE. I was ready. I lay on the bench, and with the help of my spotter, I took the weight off from the resting position. I then pressed it twice [ I did so twice so that the first rep could never be considered just a fluke ]. The weight, including the bar, was a whopping 305 lbs. I couldn't have done it if I mentally hadn't found my spirit.
---------------------------



What makes the tie to spirituality, concerning all sports, plays its MOST important role NOT when you are doing your best... But rather, when you are on the losing end of the stick... when the odds are against you... just when you think you can't anymore.


You don't need "Oriental music and incence" to consider it spiritual... Hockey, for example... You need a lot of fighting spirit there [especially during the Playoffs!]... Tennis also, requires spirit...


These things are only "recreationnal" if you perform them in that manner. But get serious about it and really give it a try... Hell, even golf becomes spiritual. Some of you may be thinking "WHAT !!??"... But yeah! Do you think you could remain focussed playing in front of huge crowds of people with the added pressure of their expectations of you compounded with the awesome possibility of winning a handsome sum of money?



The winner is the one who knows how to stay focussed and spiritually relaxed during times of acute stress.



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781282 - 08/05/03 12:42 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Good post. Check your PMs.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Sclorch]
    #1781336 - 08/05/03 01:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't understand how people can say that any sport is not spiritual. Just about any activity can be spiritual. It's all about the person's mindset. Remember that the ancient Greeks held the Olympics in honor of the gods. Any physical activity can also be a form of meditation, which is a spiritual activity. I know that for me personally, dancing at a rave is a spiritual activity.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1781427 - 08/05/03 01:37 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

My dad always told me that golf was a "zen" sport. I wouldn't consider football or baseball "zen" sports, but there is a "Tao of Football" just like there is a "Tao of..." just about everything.

As far as the martial arts "expert" getting his ass kicked by a weightlifter... I would say he wasn't much of an "expert" was he? Keep in mind that there are a lot of "dojos" built for yuppies that dont actually teach you anything and hand out blackbelts just for money.

If I'm fighting a guy that big, I forget my ego and go for the joints. No shame in kicking someone's knee in if he's 10x your size. Either that or pressure/ nerve disruptor points. But they only teach you that stuff at real schools, and usually you have to go through a lot of pain and personal sacrifice first.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781534 - 08/05/03 02:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Qi Gong focuses on spiritual health, as well as physical and mental. Does golf do this? Football? Qi Gong is meant for spiritual, physical, AND mental development... whereas something like Baseball only focuses on the physical. Sure, there are meditative aspects to many sports..but hardly at the deepness of something like qi gong. Most western sports focus on competition, whereas eastern arts focus more on precision and development.

A Black belt means nothing. What is that? Karate? It takes two years to get a black belt in karate... hardly a life time of dedication. Now put a black belt jui jitsu guy against that same power lifter and see what happens. Or Chin Na. Or Dim Mak. Fact is most of the real, respectable martial arts don't even have belt systems.

I'm not saying that ONLY eastern sports are spiritual..I don't think anybody said that. But the fact remains, is that eastern everything is generally more rooted in the spiritual, whereas western values are more towards winning and domination. In the east it's an art form, here it's about money.


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Invisiblechunder
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Registered: 08/11/02
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781537 - 08/05/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Why is it that ONLY Eastern disciplines such as yoga and martial arts are considered "spiritual" whereas Western sports such as surfing, tennis and golf are merely recreational? I draw NO such distinction as all require physical, emotional and mental discipline as well as a meditative mind state to excel.

Um...there are many others who also draw no such distinction bro. I'm sure that there are TONS of athletes who think their sport is "spiritual", mainly because any activity can be considered spiritual, just depends on your perspective of it.

Dunno why you'd think otherwise. Peace.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1781538 - 08/05/03 02:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I would say he wasn't much of an "expert" was he?
Because he lost? Then I guess Tiger Woods sucks as he has lost several tournaments. Mohammed Ali must not have been an expert fighter either. Is one only an expert if he wins? Power is power. Training in one sport can carry-over to another.

If I'm fighting a guy that big, I forget my ego and go for the joints. No shame in kicking someone's knee in if he's 10x your size.
False assumption. Powerlifting is a weight category sport like boxing and wrestling and contestants come in all sizes and shapes from tall & skinny 95 lbs to hulking 300+ lbs. There was NO MENTION of size.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleAgo.Diligo
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1781555 - 08/05/03 02:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think all things can be spirtual in the sense of mental collaboration with your physical body.  Which I believe leads to further enlightenment  However, most modern day sports don't focus on pure spirutal feelings that might happen during the said process.  In most asian systems of balance and exercise (Tai Chi, QiGong, Shaolin KungFu, etc.) there is always two facets; the first facet being taught is the physical while people who pursue the art further get to experience the spirutual wisdom of the art.  Sometimes they are taught together.

Needless to say anything a person can find spirtual in any action can determine that persons stance on the spirtuality of that action.


Hey if it feels spirtual for you, it proabably is in some way.


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"It has been said that wisdom is the ability to understand others;
it is the understanding of yourself that is enlightenment." -Shulgin


Edited by Ago.Diligo (11/09/10 09:47 AM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Ago.Diligo]
    #1781571 - 08/05/03 02:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

That's my sentiments exactly.. any sport can be spiritual.. fuck...everything is spiritual. But the fact remains that some sports focus on the spiritual, much, much, more than others. As you mentioned, Tai Chi, Gong Fu, QiGong, Chin Na, Etc... are all martial arts... and when you learn them you not only learn the movements and techniques, but the philosophies behind them, the motivation, and work on balancing the spiritual and physical aspects of them. Now I don't play golf, but I'm pretty sure they don't teach the divine metaphysical aspects of your golf swing.


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