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Sports & Spirituality
    #1780406 -

The reason that will keep this thread here however, is that QiGong itself, although designed for the healing of the body, is spiritual in nature. How could a natural method of healing which involves will power, strength, and dedication not be spiritual.

Why is it that ONLY Eastern disciplines such as yoga and martial arts are considered "spiritual" whereas Western sports such as surfing, tennis and golf are merely recreational? I draw NO such distinction as all require physical, emotional and mental discipline as well as a meditative mind state to excel. Is it merely the seeming esoteric nature of the East (to a Western Mind) or is there really something deeper going on?

Anecdotes are worthless except as entertainment, but seem to be well-received here as "proof" of something. I once saw a highly (physically) advanced black belt martial artist start a fight with a competitive power-lifter over the use of a piece of gym equipment. Well folks, you have to respect the power and focus it takes to dead lift 700 pounds. To get to the punchline, the power lifter with little fighting skills, decimated the martial artist through sheer strength. The black belt's blows had little effect on the extreme muscle density of the power lifter and once the PL got his hands on the MA it was all over and not a pretty sight.

What is my point? All roads lead to Rome my friends...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780458 -

I think one could perceive an art like qigong as more spiritual than western sports because qigong has a definite spirtitual element attached to it. I see Qigong as a physical form to aid my spirtituality, obviously any sport can serve this purpose. Qigong has an integral spiritual element which can help somebody discover their own spirituality whereas with western sports it depends more on the level of spirtuality you bring to it, to what level of spiritual experience you will gain from it. Or perhaps qigong simply has a more spiritual structure. Spirtitual smiritual - I dont really like that word anymore!

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780467 -

I've known a few surfers who consider it a spiritual thing.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1780476 -

Definitely, I did actually consider mentioning surfing but there does not seem to be an integral element of surfing which I would describe as spiritual. How many of the surfers who talk of surfings spiritual nature already have some understanding of spirtituality from another angle?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: GazzBut]
    #1780584 -

Golf is not spiritual. I fucking hate golf, every time I see a golf course it make me sick to my stomach. If everyone went out and killed a golfer, like in that movie Breaking Down, the world would be a better place.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: cdchriscd]
    #1780607 -

Lol! well thats one idea for making the world a better place!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780665 -

Im not sure about all western sports, but body building and weight lifting is definitely the opposite of spiritual!! (if such a thing is possible)


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: jono]
    #1780676 -

I don't see how it is the opposite of spiritual in at least a couple aspects of it.  Firstly I'd imagine you have to be pretty dedicated to bodybuilding and body sculpting. It can't be easy, hell I can barely manage not going from overweight to really really overweight :wink:  I can't imagine the discipline it takes to do that so intensely for years, all the while educating yourself about bodybuilding, studying it, studying what to do and what not to do, all the numerous techniques, etc.  Also, you have to be in a mindset that is different from most other people.  You have to have different values and goals from other people, and that is not an easy thing for some.

Maybe it's not necessarily what they have in common, but the deviation from the normal that makes them seem similar.  (This coming from a lazy overweight pothead with an aversion to bodybuilding :wink:)


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison

Edited by neutralizer (08/05/03 05:10 AM)

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: neutralizer]
    #1780724 -

Spirtuality as a process has more facets than simply being dedicated and having a diffent mindset than others. Successful serial killers also need to have discipline and a different mindset to others but does that make serial killing a spiritual practice?  :smile: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1780894 -

get really good at something, anything.
ya reckon?

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: mr crisper]
    #1781053 -

Yes, of course spirituality has different facets than just being dedicated to something and having a "normal" mindset. As I said, though, maybe the similarity between the two isn't that they have any specific things in common, but that they are both a deviation from "normal" attitudes and everyday stuff that we all do.

As far as serial killings go, I can see how maybe in their actions they see some sort of spritual purpose or meaning (most people would call it psychosis). So, yes, I think that you can apply a "religious fervor" or at least a "religious feeling" to just about anything. Sports happen to go well with religion, or at least Christianity. Praying before games/competitions, for one example. I also remember seeing some christian bible passage painted on the wall of my school gym in big letters, I think it was Phillipians 3:14
Quote:
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


I always thought of it as them trying to incorporate their religion into their daily lives, and never thought much about it. Looking back, though, I wonder how they got away with painting the book name, chapter and verse on a public school gymnasium, but hey, this is small town texas we're talking about.


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison

Edited by neutralizer (08/05/03 09:16 AM)

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: jono]
    #1781278 -

Im not sure about all western sports, but body building and weight lifting is definitely the opposite of spiritual!! (if such a thing is possible)

--------------------------------


You think so?

How often do you excersise? If you go to the gym, do you do more than simply go through the motions?


I enjoy finding limits. As far as my body and excersise is concerned, I have found my natural limit. My frame is that of a Mesomorph with Ectomorph characteristics. For illustration, I don't look like a pro bodybuilder. The reason I was able to reach my limit was thanks to spirit.


There is a term in the bodybuilding world... It is called the "ZONE". Getting into the ZONE is a mental preparation one makes before an extreme physical episode. It takes focus. You realize that you have entered the ZONE when you feel your body become charged... You begin to "BUZZ".... Your Adrenal glands give you a nice shot of "chemicals"... Trust me.. a sudden adrenaline rush works miracles!


I'll give a real life example.


A few years ago, I weighed 152 lbs. I was in the gym with my usual workout friend. I was getting prepared [after a thourough warm up] to bench press a maximum [ I checked out maximums once in a while to see peak strength ]. I found my ZONE. I was ready. I lay on the bench, and with the help of my spotter, I took the weight off from the resting position. I then pressed it twice [ I did so twice so that the first rep could never be considered just a fluke ]. The weight, including the bar, was a whopping 305 lbs. I couldn't have done it if I mentally hadn't found my spirit.
---------------------------



What makes the tie to spirituality, concerning all sports, plays its MOST important role NOT when you are doing your best... But rather, when you are on the losing end of the stick... when the odds are against you... just when you think you can't anymore.


You don't need "Oriental music and incence" to consider it spiritual... Hockey, for example... You need a lot of fighting spirit there [especially during the Playoffs!]... Tennis also, requires spirit...


These things are only "recreationnal" if you perform them in that manner. But get serious about it and really give it a try... Hell, even golf becomes spiritual. Some of you may be thinking "WHAT !!??"... But yeah! Do you think you could remain focussed playing in front of huge crowds of people with the added pressure of their expectations of you compounded with the awesome possibility of winning a handsome sum of money?



The winner is the one who knows how to stay focussed and spiritually relaxed during times of acute stress.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781282 -

Good post. Check your PMs.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Sclorch]
    #1781336 -

I don't understand how people can say that any sport is not spiritual. Just about any activity can be spiritual. It's all about the person's mindset. Remember that the ancient Greeks held the Olympics in honor of the gods. Any physical activity can also be a form of meditation, which is a spiritual activity. I know that for me personally, dancing at a rave is a spiritual activity.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: silversoul7]
    #1781427 -

My dad always told me that golf was a "zen" sport. I wouldn't consider football or baseball "zen" sports, but there is a "Tao of Football" just like there is a "Tao of..." just about everything.

As far as the martial arts "expert" getting his ass kicked by a weightlifter... I would say he wasn't much of an "expert" was he? Keep in mind that there are a lot of "dojos" built for yuppies that dont actually teach you anything and hand out blackbelts just for money.

If I'm fighting a guy that big, I forget my ego and go for the joints. No shame in kicking someone's knee in if he's 10x your size. Either that or pressure/ nerve disruptor points. But they only teach you that stuff at real schools, and usually you have to go through a lot of pain and personal sacrifice first.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781534 -

Qi Gong focuses on spiritual health, as well as physical and mental. Does golf do this? Football? Qi Gong is meant for spiritual, physical, AND mental development... whereas something like Baseball only focuses on the physical. Sure, there are meditative aspects to many sports..but hardly at the deepness of something like qi gong. Most western sports focus on competition, whereas eastern arts focus more on precision and development.

A Black belt means nothing. What is that? Karate? It takes two years to get a black belt in karate... hardly a life time of dedication. Now put a black belt jui jitsu guy against that same power lifter and see what happens. Or Chin Na. Or Dim Mak. Fact is most of the real, respectable martial arts don't even have belt systems.

I'm not saying that ONLY eastern sports are spiritual..I don't think anybody said that. But the fact remains, is that eastern everything is generally more rooted in the spiritual, whereas western values are more towards winning and domination. In the east it's an art form, here it's about money.


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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781537 -

Why is it that ONLY Eastern disciplines such as yoga and martial arts are considered "spiritual" whereas Western sports such as surfing, tennis and golf are merely recreational? I draw NO such distinction as all require physical, emotional and mental discipline as well as a meditative mind state to excel.

Um...there are many others who also draw no such distinction bro. I'm sure that there are TONS of athletes who think their sport is "spiritual", mainly because any activity can be considered spiritual, just depends on your perspective of it.

Dunno why you'd think otherwise. Peace.


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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1781538 -

I would say he wasn't much of an "expert" was he?
Because he lost? Then I guess Tiger Woods sucks as he has lost several tournaments. Mohammed Ali must not have been an expert fighter either. Is one only an expert if he wins? Power is power. Training in one sport can carry-over to another.

If I'm fighting a guy that big, I forget my ego and go for the joints. No shame in kicking someone's knee in if he's 10x your size.
False assumption. Powerlifting is a weight category sport like boxing and wrestling and contestants come in all sizes and shapes from tall & skinny 95 lbs to hulking 300+ lbs. There was NO MENTION of size.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1781555 -

I think all things can be spirtual in the sense of mental collaboration with your physical body.  Which I believe leads to further enlightenment  However, most modern day sports don't focus on pure spirutal feelings that might happen during the said process.  In most asian systems of balance and exercise (Tai Chi, QiGong, Shaolin KungFu, etc.) there is always two facets; the first facet being taught is the physical while people who pursue the art further get to experience the spirutual wisdom of the art.  Sometimes they are taught together.

Needless to say anything a person can find spirtual in any action can determine that persons stance on the spirtuality of that action.


Hey if it feels spirtual for you, it proabably is in some way.


--------------------
"It has been said that wisdom is the ability to understand others;
it is the understanding of yourself that is enlightenment." -Shulgin

Edited by Ago.Diligo (11/09/10 07:47 AM)

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Ago.Diligo]
    #1781571 -

That's my sentiments exactly.. any sport can be spiritual.. fuck...everything is spiritual. But the fact remains that some sports focus on the spiritual, much, much, more than others. As you mentioned, Tai Chi, Gong Fu, QiGong, Chin Na, Etc... are all martial arts... and when you learn them you not only learn the movements and techniques, but the philosophies behind them, the motivation, and work on balancing the spiritual and physical aspects of them. Now I don't play golf, but I'm pretty sure they don't teach the divine metaphysical aspects of your golf swing.


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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1781579 -

not to nitpick (like you always do), but Tiger Woods and Mohammed Ali, were competing with other professionals.

If an expert looses to a non-expert, I would definitely question his "expert" status.

Also, different fihting styles have different strngths and weaknesses it is possible to be an expert ant one style and lose to someone who studies a different style. Just look at the Ultimate Fighting Championships. Grappling/ jujitsu always wins against traditional stand up fighting.

the best way to study is to study multiple styles, that way your prepared for everything.

Oh, and excuse me for assuming that a weightlifter would be large in size. I have no idea where I could have gotten that from.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Shroomism]
    #1781679 -

skateboarding, surfing and snowboarding are not sports. They are daoist meditation techniques of the purest kind.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Shroomism]
    #1781723 -

"Now I don't play golf, but I'm pretty sure they don't teach the divine metaphysical aspects of your golf swing."
-----------------------


I don't play golf either, but  I have an interesting link. 


The one thing though, that I have heard from many avid golfers, is that the swing is always constant.  You use the same amount of energy in each swing then.  So how is it that some hits go farther than others?


It's all relative to the length of the club. [ha haha.. see size DOES matter]...  The longer the club.. like the woods...  the faster the end moves.  The more potential to move that ball with a longer club is, therefore, self evident with a constant swing.



Here's the link...

If your mind operates using a "constant swing" principle [just humour me and follow this golf analogy]...  then the further you reach out with your mind, the more potential you gain.

With the help of great caddies [like senseis and coaches] you learn how to maximise your "reach potential".


I'd be willing to argue that we all use the "same swing" in our minds...  That part would seem constant; not to mention FAIR: it implies that everyone can do it !  The difference really, only depends on the depth-length you choose to work with.


Bottom line is:  The further you go down the rabbit hole, the longer your reach.  The longer your reach,  the more you've seen and observed...  You then acquire strength potential. 

A side effect of deep search, is better understanding. 



Careful though...  THere is probably an "Event Horizon"- type concept in there as well...  Wander out too far, and you may not be coming back [read: rubber room]. :nut:


   


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1781749 -

not to nitpick
But you are, aren't you?

(like you always do),
False generalization.

but Tiger Woods and Mohammed Ali, were competing with other professionals. If an expert looses[sic] to a non-expert, I would definitely question his "expert" status.
I would bet LARGE sums of money that I can come up with many instances of amateurs beating professionals.

Oh, and excuse me for assuming that a weightlifter would be large in size. I have no idea where I could have gotten that from.
Neither do I though you make it sound as if there were some basis. This is the type of non-factual based conclusion-jumping that runs rampant in these boards.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1784008 -

Quote:
skateboarding, surfing and snowboarding are not sports. They are daoist meditation techniques of the purest kind.




for you maybe...  :smile: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: GazzBut]
    #1784114 -

Surfing is spirituality, devotion, deepness. There is so much knowledge involved in just the hunt for a wave, let alone the art itself.

It's something that's out of reach for most people and it's really undescribable unless you've done it.



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Gotta love life cuz life be lovin me

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1785890 -

The reason I thought body-building was definitely not spiritual, probably has to do with my understanding of spirituality.

As a sport it involves large amounts of Greed and to an extent, gluttony. Body builders literally force feed themselves massive amounts of food in a day, simply so that they can make themselves larger. How much food do you need to survive? I consider eating more than you need, to be greed, especially with so many starving people in the world, and the amount of strain already placed on the earth by all the farming etc, to provide food for the western world.

It involves vanity. They are essentially doing it to 'improve' their physical appearance. Im not going to bother explaining why vanity isnt spiritual.

It involves competitiveness. I dont think anything that involves competitiveness is really spiritual. Competition is a very basic and animal characterisitic. It is also ultimately self centred, and focused on the individual.

Anyway, who cares, its just my view.

With Metta,
Jono.



--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: jono]
    #1786049 -

Body builders literally force feed themselves massive amounts of food in a day, simply so that they can make themselves larger.
The cyclists in the Tour d' France also consume megacalories; so what? I guess being a lazy sloth that never moves and hence consumes very little would be considered highly spiritual...

I consider eating more than you need, to be greed, especially with so many starving people in the world,
False dilemma. Skipping a meal everyday will do NOT ONE SINGLE THING for a starving African. The problem lies in distribution.

It involves vanity. They are essentially doing it to 'improve' their physical appearance.
And a ballet dancer practices essentially to improve his/her poise, balance and - yes - muscularity. Let's get rid of that, too. And those musicians, hell - anyone who tries to improve themselves in the physical realm.

Im not going to bother explaining why vanity isnt spiritual.
Um, because you cannot?

It involves competitiveness. I dont think anything that involves competitiveness is really spiritual.
Without competitiveness, homo sapiens would not even be alive today. Is non-existence very spiritual?




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1836188 -

Ahh can't end like that.

Competition: if it involves money or even a trophy then no I am going to say there's nothing spiritual about it. This is one thing you stay away from and out of if you really care about what you're doing.

Competing with yourself though, your fears and breaking new barriers for yourself. Now that is spiritual.


--------------------
Gotta love life cuz life be lovin me

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Tavarua]
    #1836235 -

I would like to think that playing bass guitar is very spiritual.. It is just as much an act of your mind as it is moving your fingers... I can't very well describe it, but one's playing (as long as you can fluently play, that is, that you aren't limited by lack of skill) is a true reflection of what is going on in your mind.

If you make it a vehicle for self-expression, that is what it becomes..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1836476 -

"one's playing (as long as you can fluently play, that is, that you aren't limited by lack of skill) is a true reflection of what is going on in your mind."
-------------------------


I very much agree !  It is what is going on in your mind pretty close to your relative now.

I improvise much of the time when I play guitar.  Sometimes what comes out I make a mental record of it for a future song, other times, I just use it as a mode of self expression of how I am feeling at that particular moment.

  :grin:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1837184 -

Ahh, we have another guitar player, eh? I improvise a lot on bass now, a lot of it is just to practice different elements of my technique, but also to improve my note selection... improvisation is fun. It is basically necessary for songwriting..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Sports & Spirituality [Re: Swami]
    #1837471 -

Swami said:
Body builders literally force feed themselves massive amounts of food in a day, simply so that they can make themselves larger.
The cyclists in the Tour d' France also consume megacalories; so what? I guess being a lazy sloth that never moves and hence consumes very little would be considered highly spiritual...

I consider eating more than you need, to be greed, especially with so many starving people in the world,
False dilemma. Skipping a meal everyday will do NOT ONE SINGLE THING for a starving African. The problem lies in distribution.

It involves vanity. They are essentially doing it to 'improve' their physical appearance.
And a ballet dancer practices essentially to improve his/her poise, balance and - yes - muscularity. Let's get rid of that, too. And those musicians, hell - anyone who tries to improve themselves in the physical realm.

Im not going to bother explaining why vanity isnt spiritual.
Um, because you cannot?

It involves competitiveness. I dont think anything that involves competitiveness is really spiritual.
Without competitiveness, homo sapiens would not even be alive today. Is non-existence very spiritual?





the cyclists on the tour only consume megacalories during the race, normally they eat lotsa carbs. not gross chalk bulk mix drinks. so everyone who doesn't consume grossly disproportionate amounts of protein is a "lazy sloth"? yeah right man... the venom in that says much. the ballet dancer/musician comparison is void, as they are pursuing a creative art whose by product is a nicely toned body. weight lifters can't do anything besides flex and lift weights. bodybuilders suck at every other sport. (no, tough man comps don't count..)

and to say that competitiveness is spiritual merely because it is an integral part of our worldy existence seems to ignore the meaning of "spiritual"... yes, dog eat dog is the vicious cycle that we're trying to free ourselves from...

anyway, anything can be spiritual and anything can not be spiritual. however, some activities are more conducive to spiritual practice as is evidenced by the fact that it's practitioners treat in in such a manner. so to answer your question, swami, it seems that many here have observed that body builders generally don't persue their sport out of spiritual motives. that's certainly how I see it - jeez, who would want to do that to themselves? to be so inflexable, ao slow, so shitty at moving your body in space... lame. you really can't deny that for most, the appeal of body building is to bolster one's self esteem in a quite ego bound fashion.

whereas, say, kendoer's or yogaer's or runners or surfers, (which isn't a "western sport", thank you very much... ) tend to (from what I've seen) treat their sports as spiritual- as they are much more conducive to doing so.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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